...Sounds to me like for years you have been accepting "table scraps". .... not really realizing that she is conditioning you to come back begging for more.
You have been accepting bad sex, with the notion than any is better than nothing.....
...You'll never make progress unless she learns to love herself, and then by extension you. Does she masturbate? Is she comfortable with her own body, does she ever bother to dress sexy for herself? Weight and self esteem issues?
I skimmed through your thread and read that once in counseling she completely shut down when confronted about her own issues. She avoids her issues to avoid unresolved pain. It's easier to paint you as the deviant than deal with her own issues.
....Now that being said what can YOU do about it? Well step one would have been to no longer accept table scraps
...You are entitled to your libido whether you choose to sacrifice it or not for her is up to you.
Which brings me to my next question, how the heck can you keep the sexual issue away from the rest of your M.
...I am tempted to apply the "nice guy syndrome" label to you. Yet something is off. I don't know check out the book there's definitely a chapter about getting the sex you want, and not settling for scraps.
Another read that comes to mind is passionate marriage by schnarch. Almost pretty sure she won't go for it. Yet I'm reminded of the chapter where he convinced a woman to start masturbating and take control of her sex life. Once she felt in charge she was more comfortable sharing herself....
GB you are wise beyond your years.
Smmguy, I think that GB, The Captain, 25yearsmlc, and Cyrena have all given you good advice.
You can come here, vent, complain and get some sense of relief/support on this website. I know that helped me.
However, at some point you need to either accept your situation as acceptable and then embrace it or work at change. You can't force your wife to change or do things she doesn't want to.
You are mostly in control of yourself and you can change yourself. You can change how you treat her and that may change how she feels by making her feel more loved, safe and supported.
You seem to value your marriage and want to preserve it, but are upset over the lack of sex. (Which I think is natural) If you are really upset, then you need to change the dynamics within your relationship.
GB is right in that you through your interaction with your wife over time have "conditioned" her or "reinforced" a behavioral pattern that you no longer like. The first thing you need to do is figure out a different way of interacting with her that reinforces desired behaviors from her.
Sometimes a professional marriage conselor or sex therapist can help modify that relationship dynamic when both sides have given up.
Good luck
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
You stated, "Are my sexual needs worth throwing away/splitting up my marriage, the solid and positive relationship I have with the in-laws, our properties, etc. You're talking about all these changes for what... just so dad can have sex in a room where nobody else can see him a few times a week? No, correction, just so dad can have sex with another person in the same room, not just with his Playboy calendar?"
Honestly, if having sex with your wife wouldn't add a thing to your life other than satisfying your sex drive--it wouldn't enhance your love, deepen your intimacy, profoundly affect your sense of sharing yourself and growing in a relationship--then I can see why there'd be no reason to change anything.
Also, you said, "She's been to therapy about it, and, well, it doesn't seem to have gotten our sex life to where it should be. I'm just left with the gut-wrenching realization that in the real world, not all therapy is successful...."
As you've no doubt heard before, therapy can only work if the person receiving it WANTS to change. If you "dragged" her there, it's highly unlikely that she was motivated to change. Making changes to ourselves, facing our fears, is the hardest work we ever do in our lives. After 15 years of showing her that you're 95%-or-so perfectly happy not having her work on herself, I can see that it's unlikely either of you will try to get out of your rut.
It looks like both SSMGuy and I have some difficulty in explaining the perspective of both loving a person AND having a this sexual portion of our relationship be completely unsatisfactory. ....
I'll see if I can provide an analogy that makes sense.
Let's say I wanted to explain the concept of balance on a bicycle. I can describe all the actions and motor skills needed to coordinate the act of powering, steering, braking, speed control, etc. to keep the bicycle upright and I can say that if you can take all those steps and not fall over, that you've achieved *balance* but I really haven't described balance or the sensation of balance, have I? And if you've never ever ridden a bicycle, there is no experience reference to tap into to *know balance*.
Those of us whom have been through these long droughts of sex and the lack of inimacy associated with sex know, experientially, what that is like internally, just like if you've ridden a bicycle, there is an experience of balance that you can tap into....
...In that way, I understand what SSMGuy is speaking of in that our experiences are similar and we've both developed a level of love for our spouses that is powerful enough to keep us from just walking away because of the lack of sex. We can love them and still not let the absence of sexual intimacy destroy our relationship.
Yet he, like I, know there is something missing from our relationships.
...These intimate experiences are also what part of what built the love we feel today and the absence is what we miss...if they can be redeveloped and how they can be redeveloped. And there is a choice to be made in the context of a lot of other issues, to what extent we allow the lack of sex to dominate or even destroy a marriage.
...Finally, there is a duality that we deal with where we love our spouses and yet when we look carefully at this specific topic and the lack of sex and intimacy, we can be extremely dissatisfied and discouraged. I would love to bring back some level of normalcy. We are both far enough down the road that the express or implied claims that we are getting what we deserve just aren't useful.
The Captain
That was a great discussion. Thank you.
After a number of years one does share such profound experiences with another person, that not sharing a future with them seems almost impossible. That is a different level of "love" or bonding than most people know.
I think I understand that and how it can create a situation where one is committed to saving their marriage no matter what or at least preserving the "illusion" of their marriage for themselves, their children, their family and their friends.
While I am committed to my marriage, there was a time where my wife was treating me in ways that were very destructive to the fabric of our marriage. She knew me and was succeeding in alienating me and deeply emotionally hurting me. Yet, I still loved her and wanted to try to save the marriage.
For us, sex was the battleground, or should I say lack of sex was the battleground that my wife choose. Her real reasons were her issues and her anger at me. Some of the anger was real and based on things I had done earlier in our M (my not supporting her enough emotionally when the children were young) and some of her anger was her way of not accepting responsibility for some of her self-image issues and sexual hang ups.
With luck and help, I learned a lot and changed who I was, and how I treated my wife. With even greater luck and help, my W saw the changes I had made, felt really loved, changed herself and how she treated me. That allowed us to rebuild our relationship. It still isn't perfect but it is far better.
There is always hope, if we don't give up. If we give up then we are accepting things as they are. That may be because the pain associated with change is real and we want to avoid rocking the boat.
I know that if my wife came down with some illness, it would be hard, but I would accept no intercourse with her. I would strive for intimacy and see how we could still try to meet each others sexual and arousal needs. Actually at some point in the future, I fully expect that I will need to cross that bridge. I hope I will be strong enough to walk the talk, when the time does come.
There is an interesting book that a sex therapist/doctor recommended to my wife, call Still Sexy after all these years. I recommend it to anyone in a really long term committed relationship. It is based on interviews with older women and it shares their viewpoints on sex, the lack of sex in their lives and how some of them compensate by adding sensuality to their lives.
I know Captain, that you deeply love you W and are willing to stay even without sex and wish your relationship included sex. Someday I hope that you and your wife can find a way of reintrocusing some form of sex into your relationship as I know it would help strengthen the bond between you even more.
As to SSMguy, I really feel that he needs to focus on figuring out his wife's problems and working on himself as well. I think that by taking up a strong GAL program, we can serve as a role model to our spouse and maybe show them that change is possible.
I also think that SSMguy needs to change the dynamic in his relationship with his wife. He shouldn't be cruel to her or hurt her feelings. On the contrary, he should work on figuring out what is the source of her self-image and other problems and see what he can do to give her the love & confidence she needs and act as a sounding board for her so she can work through some of her issues to the best of her ability. If he can talk her into counseling all the better.
Again, rather than just accepting his situation, I recommend to SSMguy that he figure out what he needs to be happy and separate that from what he wants. Then I suggest that he work on a GAL program to meet some of the needs and work with his wife to see if together they can't meet the remaining needs.
Good luck
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
I know I've seen several references to the GAL program, but can't seem to find a description of it on this site. I seem to remember talk about "getting a life" and doing things on your own and not hanging around waiting for your wife to give you sex, or something like that?
Well, I've got my hands full with my own activities too, so I'm not sure how that would apply to me if I understand it. I'm not spending any time at all expecting sex from my wife.
If a GAL program is doing stuff that makes me happy or meets my needs, I can tell you straight off the bat that that would include hooking up with a few women friends with benefits. Distracting and sublimating my sexual energy into other activities is not going to work.
Though there are clearly similarities in you and SSM's situation, I read a few key differences.
One of the marriages lacks physical affection/contact, whereas the other is fine with touching but no actual sex.
I don't think the root problem is the same for you guys
but I need to be careful so I don't blurt out something that can sound hurtful. I want to avoid that.
SSm's wife says she has [i]never had an orgasm...and that's pretty unusual. He hoped she would grow into liking sex and he has equated his self pleasing with high libido and good performance, so he is genuinely at a loss as to what to do.
WHereas your wives both did like sex and did have orgasms...
Meaning at one point you had a good sex life w/present w, in the past, but it faded out on your w's end.
Tea, since your w once enjoyed sex, but now doesn't want it, to me that means her libido has changed/decreased due to physiological reasons,
OR[/i] it changed due to an emotional issue that blocks her libido.
A drop in libido happens twice in most womens' lives. The first major drop in over half of women occurs and could be hormonal AND situational--arriving
after the birth of a child, particularly a 2nd or subsequent child,& leads most couples having about a 2 year decrease in sex. (Probably also affects the statistics.
The hormones do drop (My OB likened the hormonal changes from childbirth to the changes in reaching puberty EXCEPT we reach puberty over several years whereas childbirth hormonal changes happen over a few days--
So the child is born and our hormones drop dramatically fast. But then -parents/wives are exhausted by the demands of 2+ small children, sleep deprivation-never to be underestimated.. so of course they want sleep and help! If they don't get it, a lot of resentment builds.
2 years later it seems to be better partly b/c the work load lessens, the h helps more, and their hormones are back on track, sleep has returned.
The other time most women feel a drop in libido is around menopause.
That happens, physiologically, to a lot of women but there are treatments for it.
The other reason for decreased libido (the non physical reasons) is emotional, and that has to do with the marriage, (sexual issues or others that affect the sex)
OR
some traumatic event completely unrelated but with relevant effects on YOU.
You both say the marriages are otherwise fine, somehow compartmentalizing it well....
I'm betting your w does not compartmentalizeas well, but lets something else interfere with her letting you in, (e.g., a resentment, a fear, something there-a real marital issue OR an emotional issue not of your making but with great impact on your marriage.
I don't think it's that complicated. But I think it's a tough issue for you, no doubt.
FWIW I have a brother who was, simply put, pretty lousy in bed. HE divorced a great woman b/c, according to him, "she was frigid."
Since my sisters and I knew sil well, and had friends who had dated that brother, unfortunately we knew better & we were sort of outraged.
Bad enough he's leaving HER, and breaking her heart, but here he was publicly bad mouthing her for sexual problems that really belonged to HIM...
He also ignored how much weight he gained ( a lot ) so he wasn't very appealing (and maybe not strong enough for certain positions?)
For sure he was not a generous lover. Things he liked/requested done to him, were not reciprocated, and he seemed not to "get" that intercourse alone doesn't always satisfy a woman, although it's easier for HIM. Basically he felt if she didn't get an O from his 3 minutes of aimless foreplay, too bad for her.
So Needless tells me his wife has "never had an O" or implies that SHE has the whole problem, I get curious about the MAN...
but I also have a brother who was experienced and prided himself on pleasing his many lovers. He made every effort to please his wife.
She was someone who let issues lke undone laundry or him being late 3 days earlier, "stop" her from feeling in the mood. She always had an obstacle course for him to navigate. (btw I have 5 brothers who talk about this issue from very different perspectives.)
ANYHOW-Though YAH made it to the other side in his m, successfully, he did so with an ultimatum he was willing to fulfill. He meant what he said.
it does not sound as if you are ready to give your w an ultimatum and I understand that.
See what you think of Cyrena's post.
And let us know how we can help.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
If a GAL program is doing stuff that makes me happy or meets my needs, I can tell you straight off the bat that that would include hooking up with a few women friends with benefits. Distracting and sublimating my sexual energy into other activities is not going to work.
Well this is EXACTLY what I asked you earlier, when I asked if you wanted permission to cheat. You ignored the question.
Anyhow, when my h was in residency, my needs were not met. We're talking 4 years and med school hadn't been a picnic either. Still, I knew from before how great it could be. But at that time with such a long road ahead, I almost had an A.
By the grace of God, I sought out c and saw a chaplain and thought it all out and stopped it from going that direction.
BUT I am a passionate romantic person. I need romance and passion in my life. and I happen to like performing. So For ME, GAl included doing theater.
B/c the challenge was/is to find a way to meet your needs within the m.
I found that having passionate roles, romantic roles, DRAMATIC roles, and really getting into it big time, helped me a lot.
It met a lot of the needs I wanted met in the m, but found a positive way to channel this. It has worked better than you might expect.
imagine if you had a make out scene with a woman you later marry IN THE PLAY? Sexy & romantic but safe?
You get a pass b/c it's acting!...you are not cheating but you get the romance/touching you so lack. (& No one could argue you were being inauthentic! You might win an acting award..."gee his hunger for her sure seemed real...")
Just a thought. My kids were freaked when they saw it the first few times...especially my son. But my h seemed to feel that "as long as I came home for dinner, he didn't care where I got my appetite."
What do you think about YAH's approach/results?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I know I've seen several references to the GAL program, but can't seem to find a description of it on this site. I seem to remember talk about "getting a life" and doing things on your own and not hanging around waiting for your wife to give you sex, or something like that?
Well, I've got my hands full with my own activities too, so I'm not sure how that would apply to me if I understand it. I'm not spending any time at all expecting sex from my wife.
....If a GAL program is doing stuff that makes me happy or meets my needs, I can tell you straight off the bat that that would include hooking up with a few women friends with benefits. Distracting and sublimating my sexual energy into other activities is not going to work.
Actually GAL involves making a dramatic change in your life and committing yourself to become a "better you" so that you can better meet your needs and the needs of your family. It doesn't necessarily involve meeting your "wants."
So not hooking up and violating your marriage vows.
For many folks, GAL involves loosing weight and getting fit or developing physical skills or mental training that will improve their life and the life of their family in some meaningful way. It can also be used to change one's self image and force a spouse to view you in a different way because you have changed so much.
In the US, about 1/3 of the adult population is obese and about another 1/3 is overweight, which is why loosing weight and getting fit are common GAL activities. They may not be appropriate for you.
Depending on what you do, it can make friends and family amazed at what has come over you and have them share that amazement with your spouse so you become more desirable (and worthy of fighting to keep) in the eyes of the spouse.
It is also a way to gain inner joy for you in taking on a real challenge that you get satisfaction mastering.
As to "I'm not spending any time at all expecting sex from my wife." I understand that. However, what are you doing with your children, friends, wife and yourself to become a better you.
For example, my GAL was to loose weight, get fit, reconnect with old friends and take up some hobbies I stopped early in my marriage.
One of my activities was running. This past year I did a couple of half marathons and another long run, plus some 5K's. My wife and a college buddy and his wife went to one of the races, where I did a half marathon in and they did a 5K fun walk.
At another half marathon I ran this year, one of my son's and his girlfriend and my other son and his wife also participated in other events. Oldest son ran a full marathon. One of the woman ran a half marathon, and the others did a 5K all on the same morning as part of the same event.
I also took up mountain climbing this past year and have been doing that with one of my sons.
So my GAL is making a huge change in me and is drawing me closer to my wife, family, and friends. My wife and I some weekends go for walks together. My wife has gotten comments from some of her girlfriends about what a handsome guy I am and how lucky she is.
Some folks take classes that can improve them financially or give them skills that will allow them to live a better and more enjoyable life.
You might want to look into a GAL program assumming. Too often people don't realize that change is possible. GAL is about changing the status quo, and proving to yourself and your spouse that change is possible and that we can improve our situation.
Good luck.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
...ANYHOW-Though YAH made it to the other side in his m, successfully, he did so with an ultimatum he was willing to fulfill. He meant what he said.
it does not sound as if you are ready to give your w an ultimatum [i]and I understand that.
...And let us know how we can help.
Captain/ssmguy. (thanks 25)
I know that the Captain and I have shared viewpoint over a long time and he really helped me a lot when I was really down in my SSM.
I guess I also needed to share that my SSM was a little different in that my wife was emotionally hurting me to the point that I (as the HD guy) just got fed up with the emotional pain of sexual rejection the way she did it.
That stared me down a path of self improvement and discovery. I was probably on "most valued customer" lists at both Amazon.com and Barnes & Noble.com based on all the relationship books I purchased and read. They include MWD's SSM and ranged to self hypnosis, self-visualization affirmation tapes. I did those in addition to getting in shape and loosing weight.
I did (after I worked hard and doing some MWD 180's and making GAL changes) make a promise to myself that I would be in a loving relationship or I would divorce my wife of 38 years. That was a hard decision, but it was done after I had figured out how to make my wife feel emotionally loved in her languages of love (acts of service and quality time) and after she would not respond to any of my 180's. Ultimately she was curious at some of the books I was reading and ultimately she agreed to counseling.
She ultimately understood that her refusal to have sex was an act of sabotage to the marriage relationship, and one that she knew should result in our getting a divorce. She knew if but it was hard for her to stop doing that even though she didn't want a divorce. Our sex therapist was good at making her confront what she knew deep down inside.
I really do feel that she lost respect for me, for our marriage and that anger was what she focused on. Ultimately she realized that she had to let go of that anger. That is when our relationship improved.
A positive outlook and visualizing what you want from a happy marriage is important. Even if it means you might have to change you wife to get it.
If either Ssmguy or the Captain comes to that point, then you will be ready for change and wherever it takes you. However, at that point your spouse will be in control of whether they change enough to keep the marriage going.
I honestly didn't expect to celibrate a 39th or a 40th wedding aniversary, but we did and I think that there is a good chance that we will celebrate a 50th, but only time will tell.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Well this is EXACTLY what I asked you earlier, when I asked if you wanted permission to cheat. You ignored the question.
Well, no, I just said I don't need permission to cheat. Meaning, if I want to cheat, I'll do it without anybody's permission. I don't struggle with guilt in this regard. It simply has to do with consequences and wanting to make sure it works out as well as possible for everyone whatever I do.
Quote:
... I almost had an A.
Don't know what you mean by an A, but there are plenty of women these days, especially in the younger category, who are quite fine with just a purely recreational "hook up", however temporary, with no strings attached whatsoever, and who have no problems letting you know it too.
