Well most people keep covering my points so I'll add this instead, and this is not advice or a recommendation. Just me trying to understand how your W feels. These are just hypothetical questions.
Ok so your W buys you playboy calendars. Pretty cool I'd say.
How would she feel if you actively watched hardcore stuff online?
How would she feel if you and the guys went to a strip club? How about alone?
How about if you got it outside the marriage with no strings attached?
I only ask this because I am curious as to how much she is willing to tolerate to avoid actually fulfilling your needs. Are her scars so deep that she would allow what many find to be intolerable?
What's the limit of her fears? How much would she tolerate, before getting the help she needs. (it doesn't have to be professional, it could just be a personal commitment to work on herself).
It almost feels like she gets you the calendars to replace what she herself is not willing to give. Yet the calendars are pretty tame, when compared to what else you could be doing. Sounds like the calendars are a relatively low price to pay to get you to leave her alone.
It's a weird set of questions, but I think the answers would put things in perspective.
The other thing is does your W understand the difference between wanting Sex and wanting HER? To alot of women to include my W this is an important distinction. Because of the SA your W felt used like an object. She must have felt like a rag doll being used to satisfy someone else's needs. Everytime you bugged her for a hand job and she complied, it probably made things worse. Now YOU were using her for your pleasure, pressuring = forcing.
In a marriage you can't force someone to act in any way. Yet you can prompt them to react to your actions. Here are some ideas.
Get yourself some counseling, work on your issues this may get her to work on hers. Even if she never gets IC seeing her work on your problems may get her to finally objectively look at her own.
Work on making her feel better about herself, make her feel confident.
Get her to enjoy physical comfort, a slightly deeper kiss, a lingering hug, help her equate physical contact with love. Your goal shouldn't be to get her in bed, your immediate goal should be a deep make out session. Can you get her to this? Maybe a hug from behind when she doesn't expect it. Can you get her to feel comfortable sitting on your lap. Maybe if you do all this without it leading to sex, she can see the physical touch as love not you being a perv.
In a world where only my wants and desires mattered, a sexless marriage would not be a problem because it would not exist. However, from both a legal perspective and a practical one, there is another person involved.
And their position on this matter is "NO!" And as my wife reiterated "NOT YES! NOT MAYBE!"
So while I can provide all the reasons why being sexless is not a good idea in maintaining this marriage it still faces "NO!"
Persistence in the face of this "NO!" ends up with the following question: "What part of NO do you not understand?"
In my case, my silence on the matter with her was by the conditions that we established in attempting to negotiate the issues. And as I have pointed out previously, I never imagined that she would completely opt out of sex (though I did have hope she would change her mind).
Clearly, there is something else going on for our partners that neither SSMGuy or I have any control over (after this past weekend I might have a bit more insight about that with my wife). I realize that, for my part, I enable this because I try to be considerate, supportive, and understanding by not completely tossing my marriage out because my wife refuses to be sexual.
Do I wish to send the message "I don't want you anymore if you aren't going to be sexual with me"?
Not really. And it has occurred to me that she relies upon that as a reason why I'm still here.
It has occurred to me that it will take something that blunt.
The Captain
Last sex: 04/06/1997 Last attempt: 11/11/1997 W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997 W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998 I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds. Start running again (marathons)
Hey Captain I ask you a similar question, how much is your wife willing to overlook in order to get you off her back? Or is she one of those that expects you to take a vow of celibacy with her?
In a hypothetical scenario if you were to ask
"so you want me to never have sex again?"
What would she respond? Would she coldly say yeah? Would she say it's no sex or D?
I guess the reason I ask is because I wonder what type of attitude your W along with SSMguy's have on "your needs". Their attitudes on this would help us figure out what approach to take.
The question boils down to do you or do you not want to have a functioning, fulfilling sexual life?. If the answer's "Yes!" then we on the board (and even more preferably a professional counselor) can help provide outside views and ball strategies back and forth.
You are the captain of your destiny. If you want to sail in becalmed waters, knowingly, then that's your decision. I strongly advise against it. Life is too short, too limited to not try to live it to the fullest. My life isn't perfect, but it's a heck of a lot better than it was when I first got here 6 years ago.
Change begins with an idea. Idea's need to be translated into actions. I do strongly suggest you begin professional counseling for yourself to work on this issue to get past the complacency that has evolved in your relationships over time as you've both pointed out. Yes this is quite complex and personal but therapists see it all. Don't give up, give in, or surrender! Ever!
Everyone can use support and the occasional 2x4. We can give both. So, what's it going to be? Change or not?
The interesting thing about Tea's version of events is that, 20(?) years ago his wife refused sex during a short period of time with the words quoted above--and it is Tea who decided that she feels that way every day since. His W may well tell her confidants that it was Tea who created the SSM, because it's just as valid to see it that way.
Tea based his stubborn decision on a previous agreement not to keep harping on friction topics. Tea, researchers have discovered that the key friction topics in every marriage never get resolved. However, in successful marriages, both partners learn ways to accept and negotiate past different ways of being.
To reach this level, communication is the key. It was unworkable to decide decades ago that those sticking points in your M which would lead to its being a success once resolved, would instead be filed away in silence to cause resentment and blocks to further intimacy.
What could you possibly lose by admitting that, like every other human on earth, you didn't know how to successfully negotiate a satisfactory M when you were younger? Why stick to a flawed and self-destructive agreement? It never has, and still isn't, working for you.
I will share a little more. When my W was so angry at me that we didn't have sex, she felt bad and was ashamed. She felt like a failure in that aspect of marriage and intimacy/sex just reminded her of her failure in this are.
The point is that Mrs. Captain and Mrs. ssmguy may (or may not) also feel bad about the current situation, but feel as trapped by circumstances as their husbands.
Finding a way out of an SSM can not only be a give for oneself, but also for the one that you love.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Until recently we had not talked about it for years...until she recently accused me of having "met someone else." I have lost 60 pounds and begun renewing my interest in stuff that I had given up (music, backpacking / hiking).
Most excellent, TEGH. These are exactly the kind of activities that we tried to encourage you to do when you first showed up here a couple of years ago, and I'm very glad to see the positive changes in yourself. Well done!
Your wife has also noticed these positive changes -- to the point that it has made her concerned that you might be having an affair. That's a good sign, actually, and it means that she too has noticed your increased sexual attractiveness. And if you're more attractive to her, you might be more attractive so somebody else...hence her concern. You are on the right track with your GAL activities, and hopefully finding that such efforts can also have positive effects on how your spouse views you. Yes, she brought it up as a negative accusation, but look at the hidden message behind that accusation: you making positive changes to yourself has upset the old status quo, shaken things up, and caused her to question herself and her long-standing hold on you.
Originally Posted By: TeaEarlGreyHot
In this accusation, she did admit that she did not marry me so that she could have a marriage without having it be a sexual one. She said that in response to my observation that the women who have gotten involved with me over my lifetime seem to do so to allow them to have a comfortable relationship that does not involve sex...that I will allow them to be who they really are without requiring sex in exchange for that environment of being who they really are.
She did try to tell me that I was confusing sex with intimacy. But she also cannot (or will not) explain why, in more than 14 years, she has never attempted to be intimate with me sexually or otherwise. She was not the one complaining of too little intimacy; I was.
While I understand that the underlined statement above is one of your core beliefs regarding your current situation, when your wife was confronted with that belief of yours, she flatly denied it. Why not take her at her word? No, she wasn't able to articulate a better explanation, but she was at least able to state that her truth didn't match your own view or 'observation'. Why not accept that and try to move forward with it?
Now that you are well on your way within 'phase 1' of the four phases of SSM recovery, and have gotten your wife's attention with it, I would recommend that you next begin to actually court your wife again, in accordance with 'phase 2'. She's afraid that you might be courting someone else, so turn it on *her* instead. Start at the beginning and treat her the way that you would a brand new love interest. You will most likely encounter disbelief from her at first, perhaps even a bit of negative push-back, but if you are persistent, she might start to become intrigued and appreciative of your attention, especially knowing that you won't "go sexual" with it, IOW your previous agreement.
You said to me a couple of years ago that you didn't want to be 'diagnosed', and that you didn't want any book recommendations. Instead, you wanted concrete examples of the actions and steps that actually lead to recovering from an SSM. That's what I'm giving you. I didn't make up those "four phases" out of an abstract vacuum -- I observed what worked for me and compared it to the handful of other success stories that I read about on this forum and others like it. Admittedly, most attempts at recovering an SSM fail, but for those folks that do manage it, they all seemed to roughly follow this same common theme.
Best regards,
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
If you are going to characterize my relationship, the events and the responses, at least be a little more accurate in your languaging.
As I have written before, the winding down of my sex life was a gradual thing. Prior to our marriage in 1992, there were occasional periods of no sexual intimacy. They generally did not extend more than 5-6 weeks (and by that I mean that I was around during that period because my job occasionally took me away for several weeks at a time). By the time we reached calendar year 1997, we were down to a rate of 3 times every two years though not necessarily equally spaced.
That is not to say that I didn’t try to get her interested more often than that. But what once seemed relatively easy in 1986 and 1987 (in the first year after we met) was now becoming more difficult. So, it was a real surprise on April 6, 1997 when she suddenly initiated a sexual interlude, something she hadn’t done in a while. There were lots of things going on then that complicated things and distracted. But between April 6 and November 11, 1997, though I made many attempts, there was no breaking through.
November 11th was the day of the big “blow-up” and I spent much of the rest of that day and the subsequent weekend apologizing and explaining in the face of her fury at me. She withdrew all permission to be sexual with her until we worked something out. After a couple of weeks of “cooling off” we took the first steps by agreeing to a framework within which to discuss the issues, our differences and all proposals that either of us wanted to have entertained as part of a negotiated agreement.
Over the ensuing 6 months we had several long (and draining) conversations as well as a few much shorter ones to “check-in” on where we were. I still did not have her permission to be the slightest bit sexual with her as she made abundantly clear. And when it seemed we were making no progress, I wanted to know if there was any hope for resolution that involved sex at any level or frequency and her answer was no. I’ve given a much more detailed accounting of what was said previously.
It is not stubbornness that has had me be silent…it was a promise to abide by the process and the choices we made. A promise is a promise and one of the issues that had cropped up earlier was her concern that I might not keep my promises.
As she and I have discussed over the last year, she expected me to break my promise, given what I went through with my first wife. I thought at the time, with a few more months, she might decide that a sexless marriage wasn’t really what she wanted. Besides by this time we had gone more than a year since there was any sex and more than 6 months with any real physical contact. Then another crisis involving her mom’s health was foremost, then issues with my wife’s own health became paramount, issues with her daughter. The list goes on.
The thing I pointed out to her at the time, the reason I was ‘persistent’ and the reason I was willing to come to some agreement on some level and frequency of sexual intimacy was that I could see if we (she) did not give it some importance, some priority, that our sex life would slip away. I said this many times leading up to this big blow-up and to her finally telling me that she was unwilling to commit to any sexual intimacy.
As you can see, this was not some made up fear. I was living it and watching it happen as I am still today.
The argument that she and I might, at age 51 and 44 respectively, be less able to negotiate issues in our marriage than we might today at age 64 and 58, might be valid if we had actually been in our 20’s and 30’s, if neither of us had been married before, or if my wife was not a therapist. And while she has expressed some regret in the last year about the framework we set up (because I stayed true to my promises and didn’t broach the subject any longer) and has admitted that, on occasion, she has missed the sexual intimacy we once shared, she has also not been ready to share that intimacy with me again or to even give me permission to once again try, even knowing how unhappy I am with this situation….
I’m going to leave it at that for the moment.
The Captain
Last sex: 04/06/1997 Last attempt: 11/11/1997 W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997 W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998 I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds. Start running again (marathons)
In a hypothetical scenario if you were to ask "so you want me to never have sex again?"
What would she respond? Would she coldly say yeah? Would she say it's no sex or D?
I have in fact asked her that a number of times in many ways. Her answer is basically, "No, I don't expect you to never have sex again. But if you keep pressuring me on this, I certainly won't feel like having sex any time soon."
How would she feel if you actively watched hardcore stuff online?
Wouldn't particularly care one way or the other as long as I don't insist that she watch stuff with me.
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How would she feel if you and the guys went to a strip club? How about alone?
No problem. Already done that, no problem, as long as I don't insist on dragging her along. She made an exception for some of the more classic topless shows in Las Vegas and enjoyed it. I've taken her to some male strip shows, and she got a kick out of that.
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How about if you got it outside the marriage with no strings attached?
She's made comments indicating she's kind of assuming I might have done such things, but doesn't want any details if there are any.
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I only ask this because I am curious as to how much she is willing to tolerate to avoid actually fulfilling your needs. Are her scars so deep that she would allow what many find to be intolerable?
She's never been a particularly jealous person in this regard. Perhaps because she sees sex as for me as being unrelated to love? Who knows? She does know that I've always given her attention and respect no matter what other women are around (friends and colleagues and such.. never been a problem).
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What's the limit of her fears? How much would she tolerate, before getting the help she needs. (it doesn't have to be professional, it could just be a personal commitment to work on herself).
She's already had extensive help for her issues. It's improved our marriage quite a lot, but still not sexually.
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The other thing is does your W understand the difference between wanting Sex and wanting HER?
Yes, she knows I want her, and not just sex. Like a lot of women, she wants the love, but not the sex.
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Get yourself some counseling, work on your issues this may get her to work on hers. Even if she never gets IC seeing her work on your problems may get her to finally objectively look at her own.
We've both already had both couples and individual counseling, both psychotherapy, and sex therapy. As I said, it's helped, but not sexually.
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Work on making her feel better about herself, make her feel confident.
That's what I've been doing.
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Get her to enjoy physical comfort, a slightly deeper kiss, a lingering hug, help her equate physical contact with love. Your goal shouldn't be to get her in bed, your immediate goal should be a deep make out session. Can you get her to this? Maybe a hug from behind when she doesn't expect it. Can you get her to feel comfortable sitting on your lap. Maybe if you do all this without it leading to sex, she can see the physical touch as love not you being a perv.
Pretty much what I've been doing for the last 5 years. She doesn't want the kiss to be too intimate, however. And prefers the hug not to be lingering. I have NO goals of getting her into bed for sex at all at this point, and she knows that. A deep makeout session is completely out of the question, she does not permit it. Way to close to sex as she sees it. A hug from behind would feel too much like a sneak attack, that much I know. Sitting in lap...way too close to being sexual -- she might allow it for a moment, but then she'd have something else she just remembered she had to take care of.
