Are there any midlife women who want daily sex?

[NewHorizons]

I heard something today that struck me as being a good saying:

"For things to change for you, you have to change."

//NH

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

I think the opening may be there, its just not quite ripe yet.

The Captain

[Young at Heart]

.....How would she feel if you and the guys went to a strip club? How about alone?

No problem. Already done that, no problem, as long as I don't insist on dragging her along. She made an exception for some of the more classic topless shows in Las Vegas and enjoyed it. I've taken her to some male strip shows, and she got a kick out of that.

How about if you got it outside the marriage with no strings attached?

She's made comments indicating she's kind of assuming I might have done such things, but doesn't want any details if there are any.

I only ask this because I am curious as to how much she is willing to tolerate to avoid actually fulfilling your needs. Are her scars so deep that she would allow what many find to be intolerable?

She's never been a particularly jealous person in this regard. Perhaps because she sees sex as for me as being unrelated to love? Who knows? She does know that I've always given her attention and respect no matter what other women are around (friends and colleagues and such.. never been a problem).

What's the limit of her fears? How much would she tolerate, before getting the help she needs. (it doesn't have to be professional, it could just be a personal commitment to work on herself).

She's already had extensive help for her issues. It's improved our marriage quite a lot, but still not sexually.

The other thing is does your W understand the difference between wanting Sex and wanting HER?

Yes, she knows I want her, and not just sex. Like a lot of women, she wants the love, but not the sex.

Get yourself some counseling, work on your issues this may get her to work on hers. Even if she never gets IC seeing her work on your problems may get her to finally objectively look at her own.

We've both already had both couples and individual counseling, both psychotherapy, and sex therapy. As I said, it's helped, but not sexually.

Work on making her feel better about herself, make her feel confident.

That's what I've been doing.

Get her to enjoy physical comfort, a slightly deeper kiss, a lingering hug, help her equate physical contact with love. Your goal shouldn't be to get her in bed, your immediate goal should be a deep make out session. Can you get her to this? Maybe a hug from behind when she doesn't expect it. Can you get her to feel comfortable sitting on your lap. Maybe if you do all this without it leading to sex, she can see the physical touch as love not you being a perv.

Pretty much what I've been doing for the last 5 years. She doesn't want the kiss to be too intimate, however. And prefers the hug not to be lingering. I have NO goals of getting her into bed for sex at all at this point, and she knows that. A deep makeout session is completely out of the question, she does not permit it. Way to close to sex as she sees it. A hug from behind would feel too much like a sneak attack, that much I know. Sitting in lap...way too close to being sexual -- she might allow it for a moment, but then she'd have something else she just remembered she had to take care of.

First, I must ask, if the two of you were in sex therapy and that did not result in a resumption of sex, what parting advice or comments did the sex therapist have for you? I find it surprising that the sex therapy didn't result in a resumption of sex, unless the therapy was so uncomfortable that the two of you just stopped it.

I would also comment that if you wife assumes that you may have had affairs, but doesn't want the details, that could be a major issue in this day and age!

Let me be specific. If I thought that my wife had had an affair, I would not have unprotected sex with her until a few months after we had both been tested for STD's. I mean this could be a for the rest of your life or even a life or death situation with the current crop of STD's that are out there.

If you ever have had an affair, even if you practices safe sex, you probably should get yourself tested, just to make sure you have no STD's. Have you ever asked your wife what fears she has if the two of you ever became sexually active again?

One of the things about wanting love and having sex is that many people want the feelings of close bonding associated with the release of oxytocin that happens after intense touching and after orgasm. Oxytocin is sometimes called the love or cuddling hormone. It is something that human beings want/need and results in a deep mental/physical bonding.

As to some close physical types of intimacy being too close to sex for your wife. I understand that as I have been there. I do applaud your giving her space and working at making her feel loved. As you say, I am sure it has helped in other areas.

I do find and Sue Johnson in Hold Me Tight explains why that physical touch is a basic human need. There are many times that my wife desires to be touched (but not have sex) in ways that she can handle. Often times, it is during or after these touching sessions that she becomes aroused and wants sex.

When I was in an SSM and we were at a motel on a business trip of mine and a mini-vacation for her, I gave her a foot massage and after it was over she bolted to the bathroom and took a long shower with the door locked. Later in therapy, I learned that she had become aroused to the point of wanting to have sex with me, but was still too angry to allow herself to do that and so she literally had to run for cover and lock herself in another room away from me until the feelings left her.

My suggestion is to in your giving your wife affection to include whatever physical touch she will allow as she needs that and it may cause her to want more. Should she want more, I would not initiate sex, instead, I would tell her that you want to start therapy with her so that the two of you can build a solid bridge prior to prior re-initiating sex.

I want to stress that I am not trying to suggest that you create in your mind "contracts" where you do things and you expect your wife to respond, I am instead trying to suggest changing the dynamic in your relationship and if you get a positive outcome, reinforce it in a way that outcome, but don't expect it nor force it.

Good luck to you.

[Young at Heart]

I heard something today that struck me as being a good saying:

"For things to change for you, you have to change."

//NH

Well said.

I think that someone should use that as a tag line or get it put in a fortune cookie or better yet put up as a saying on one's office wall!

Thanks.

[Young at Heart]

I think the opening may be there, its just not quite ripe yet.

The Captain

Then there is hope and an opportunity to nuture the ember until it becomes a flame!

At an appropriate time, you might tell her how much you love her and that you have hope for growing closer in the future as the two of you grow older together. Her response might just surprise you.

[ssmguy]

First, I must ask, if the two of you were in sex therapy and that did not result in a resumption of sex, what parting advice or comments did the sex therapist have for you? I find it surprising that the sex therapy didn't result in a resumption of sex, unless the therapy was so uncomfortable that the two of you just stopped it.

It took a lot of convincing to get her into therapy. Things seemed to be making progress, but it was getting increasingly stressful for her and she finally called it off just as it was getting to sexual issues. There was no way I or the therapist could convince her to continue. She was done, and that was that, as she put it. She was greatly relieved that the therapy had ended and was much more cheerful for a while. I think it gave her a better view of where things are, and it did improve our dynamics. But it didn't go all the way to what such therapy would consider a "success".

The parting comment to me was that, to be honest my prospects for solving the problem as I want it did not look promising. Of all the couples they had treated, we would be in the small minority to be able to solve the problem given our overall issues. Well, I was more hopeful than that, but so far they've proven right.

And that wasn't the first therapist she had "fired" either. So, yeah, she's a tough nut to crack.

I would also comment that if you wife assumes that you may have had affairs, but doesn't want the details, that could be a major issue in this day and age!

Sure, but she knows how high my drive is, so like you on the forum, who would believe that I've done nothing even if I said otherwise.

Let me be specific. If I thought that my wife had had an affair, I would not have unprotected sex with her until a few months after we had both been tested for STD's.

If you had shut your wife off for 15 years, and she had a high sex drive, I think you would assume she was lying if she said she hadn't done anything. So the point is kind of moot it's so out of kilter.

If you ever have had an affair, even if you practices safe sex, you probably should get yourself tested

Hope I don't get too cute here, but you can't get STD's from an emotional affair. And there's a lot of fooling around, dry humping, hands-on-other person only, etc., where chances of STD's are virtually zero, yet both people get off. Just questioning your assumption here.

, just to make sure you have no STD's. Have you ever asked your wife what fears she has if the two of you ever became sexually active again?

I keep having to convey the reality of her comfort around this. No, because talking about that already assumes a certain amount of "reality" to us ever having sex again. It's like asking, if we were to have sex again, what positions would you like to try? It's kind of "hey, buddy, I think you're getting way ahead of yourself."

Sure I get the ideas about touching and human need. She's all for polite touching and hugs, just not the sex, thank you. Her response on this idea would basically be, you don't have to have sex to get all the benefits of touching. How would you argue with that?

When I was in an SSM and we were at a motel on a business trip of mine and a mini-vacation for her, I gave her a foot massage and after it was over she bolted to the bathroom and took a long shower with the door locked. Later in therapy, I learned that she had become aroused to the point of wanting to have sex with me, but was still too angry to allow herself to do that and so she literally had to run for cover and lock herself in another room away from me until the feelings left her.

I'd be ecstatic if my wife reacted that way, even if I got no sex out of it. That would be a huge improvement in responsiveness on her part.

[ssmguy]

Based on some of the feedback I've gotten from some people in this forum, and people elsewhere, I need to clarify what I'm looking for. And I think it's the result of such a long period of SSM and the lack of full sexual experience even when it was not SSM.

For example, advice to me about not dating until well after I had divorced my wife, etc., to allow a period for emotional readjustment, etc. I think that advice would apply to a lot of people who have had a reasonably good sex life up until, or near the point of divorce. Or at least it might apply to someone who knows what a really good sex life in a good relationship is all about. I'm not sure I do. Which affects my expectations in all kinds of ways, possibly in ways I'm not aware of. And maintaining a relationship in its current form with my wife for so many years has taught me to separate love and sex, probably more than I realize. And so what I'm most interested in, and curious about, is just having fun, frequent, and intense sex with a woman who is highly sexual. And I'd be ready for that at the drop of a hat. I don't need a period of emotional readjustment etc.

My reaction to all this talk about deeply committed love, etc. is perhaps like an 18-year-old guy's who's lacking sexual experience to the same degree as I. I mean, gee, I would like to just try a bunch of sexual positions for the first time in my life, see what it's like when a woman has an orgasm, learn from her how she likes it, and just see what it's like to have sex with a woman who likes sex. It's just that simple. That would be just a huge thrill for me. All this talk about waiting and emotionally readjusting and deeply committed relationships... I feel like an 18-year-old listening to a 60-year old giving advice to another 60 year old, in spite of the fact that I will be 60 before too long myself!

And to top it off, I read stuff about how women my age often don't find intercourse to be comfortable anymore, and so we old-timers must settle for "outercourse", and the suggestion that I'll probably need Viagra soon, and how it's all about emotions at this point and less about the sex, and men's andropause, and lack of energy, and is my T low commercials on TV. I've never heard such a big crock of stereotyped and erroneous assumptions. I just want to get laid, and often, and try a whole bunch of fun things for the first time! What's so hard to understand about that?

[Bagheera]

I am little confused SSMGuy;

Two years ago, you showed up on these forums, talked about being in a 10+ year, no sex, SSM, and described how you had previously made the decision to go outside of your marriage in order to have your sexual needs met -- FWB arrangements, prostitutes, strip-club hand-jobs, massages with 'happy endings', and the like. Essentially you described an open marriage in which your wife didn't want to know about the details regarding what you did, just as long as you didn't approach her for sex. You never said how long you had been 'outsourcing' for casual sex, but my impression was that it had been for a year, or more, before your showing up here. One of your justifications for doing this was the following:

(post #1882824 - 2009-11-28 17:12:30)

To correct a sentence above, I meant to write, "Having a woman wanting me to touch her breasts or her genitals, or even permitting me to do so, is TOTALLY NEW for me -- never experienced that in my life."

So to elaborate on that, it should give you another perspective on why I'm not, at this time, longing for a long-term fulfilling relationship with another woman involving spiritual communion, etc. I'm just fascinated as heck with women's orgasms, and how easily some women can have them -- that's all a totally new experience for me. I feel like a kid with a new set of toys. I didn't know women could be this much fun in bed. Sure, I knew from books and instructional videos that women have orgasms, but I didn't really think it was such a commonplace thing or that they could enjoy them so much.

Perhaps the best solution for me is to arrange for sessions with one of those sexual surrogates I've heard about in California who can give me some hands on lessons in arousing a woman physically, and so on, and make up for what I missed early on and what is a normal experience for most guys.

So you have to understand how you're kind of losing me a bit when you talk about how I should be reaching for level 6. To me, at this time, the descriptions for levels 5 and 6 sound kind of like boring old-people sex. I DO UNDERSTAND that I would deeply appreciate it once I got to that point. But as a long-time HD male, the lack of erotic content in the level 5 and 6 descriptions sounds entirely penile-deflating. Nothing wrong with spiritual communion, but the concept to me looses the image of the lacy lingerie, the clothes that are tight in just the right places, the candlelight dinner with the flirtatious hints about the pleasures to come later in the evening.

Now today, you write:

My reaction to all this talk about deeply committed love, etc. is perhaps like an 18-year-old guy's who's lacking sexual experience to the same degree as I. I mean, gee, I would like to just try a bunch of sexual positions for the first time in my life, see what it's like when a woman has an orgasm, learn from her how she likes it, and just see what it's like to have sex with a woman who likes sex. It's just that simple. That would be just a huge thrill for me. All this talk about waiting and emotionally readjusting and deeply committed relationships... I feel like an 18-year-old listening to a 60-year old giving advice to another 60 year old, in spite of the fact that I will be 60 before too long myself!

So what have you learned in at least 2+ years of sexual exploration, on-the-side of your marriage? I personally don't see any difference, and my impression is that you will never progress beyond the 18-year-old stage of sexual exploration -- you've just been scratching and itch, and learning nothing in the process.

As has been told to you before, REAL sexual fulfillment, not the 'sexual pleasure' that you currently engage in, comes only through linking emotional intimacy with physical intimacy: only then can the true heights of deep 'spiritual' and simultaneous physical connection be achieved (Schnarch's level '6' on his sexual intimacy scale). Most men, at some point in their single lives, find that the casual sexual relationships become 'stale' and 'unfulfilling'. For some this occurs early (as with myself), and for some this occurs much later, but it usually does occur (those for whom it doesn't occur usually remain single). The thing that brings 'flavor' and 'fulfillment' back into sexuality is when it becomes linked with a person that one also has a deep emotional connection with, a person that one 'loves'.

From the sound of it, you haven't moved forward a bit from that time that I was last active on this board. Is that really the case?

-- B.

[ssmguy]

What have I learned in the last 2 years? Still haven't seen a woman have an orgasm and still no intercourse. But I wouldn't extrapolate 2 years to infinity. If anything, it is the realization that such time has passed that prompts me to say, "this is not working". As you must know from your impressively careful reading of my posts from 2 years ago (I had even forgotten I wrote what you quoted form 2 years ago!), the most recent years have been "peaceful" in our relationship in that I'm not constantly working 24x7 to "fix" our relationship. And that's something I've learned from too.

And yeah, my plans to do all those sexual things were an expression of what I wished for in my frustration. But I've also GAL'ed, and have a lot of other fun things to keep me busy, not to mention work and family. But I've also had several FWB offers, the kind some men might kill for. But I inexplicably (perhaps caught me a bit off guard and I didn't feel ready) turned them down at the time, but now regret it. But it had the effect of making me feel more ready for that sort of thing.

Yes, I'm sure I would eventually find casual sexual relationships to be "stale" after a while. But I wonder if it's really possible to immediately jump to level 6 without first having the perspective of the "stale" thing. Right now, "stale" looks pretty darn good to me. Isn't it kind of like telling a starving concentration camp inmate that he shouldn't settle for McDonald's when he can have gourmet food?

In fact, I wonder if my focus and lack of experience at this point would really be a fit for a woman near my age who's interested in a deep relationship and has had good sex for decades in a previous marriage or whatever. Or perhaps there are such women, as women are often quite understanding. I do know that some women I've talked to seemed a little put off by my lack of experience with a good sexual relationship, wondering, as some of the women on this thread have wondered, what might be wrong with me. Younger women seem to be much more open, adventurous, energetic, and certainly daring in this regard. Though I will readily admit that that might just be the particular people I've run into.

Bagheera, I totally take on faith what you and Snarch say about level 6. It's similar to the intense romantic fantasies I had before I met my wife, what my future intimate relationship could be with a woman, and how my sexual feelings were tied to a very close emotional relationship. But I never got to that level with my wife. As it felt to me, she kind jumped ship before we could get to level 6. For example, one thing that I was looking forward to with her was to share sexual fantasies and role play together, even just some mild things, just to explore, in a safe and very private way. She seemed to indicate interest in that before we got married, and shared some fantasies. But after we got married, she never wanted to discuss any fantasies at all. It just made her uptight and clam up. It was like all these connections I wanted to make and never could.

As for the concept of moving forward, I would say, I want to move forward through a lot of really fun stale and intense physical sex, so I can later enjoy the more emotionally fulfilling sex. And there's a practical reason too, of course. I can't order up the latter overnight, but I can sure fill the time with the former until I get the latter. At this point, I don't relish the idea of waiting for sex until I have a good level 6 situation. That's setting the bar too high. I don't see why I shouldn't first totally enjoy "stale" sex until I get tired of it?

[Bagheera]

As you must know from your impressively careful reading of my posts from 2 years ago (I had even forgotten I wrote what you quoted form 2 years ago!)....

I wanted to review your old threads before responding to you again. You truly are repeating yourself over and over now:

(post #1886445 - 2009-12-03 20:31:5)

It goes without saying that everyone on this forum would not approve of going elsewhere to get that experience. The reasoning would be that you could never learn about a really meaningful Schnarch Level 6 sexual experience from a friend with occasional benefits. Again, that misses my point, like telling a starving concentration camp inmate to avoid the 2003 wines from certain California vineyard because that was a bad year. Sure, level 6 sounds good, and I think I can visualize it emotionally, and it sounds great. But if I were to divorce, my giddy thoughts revolve around dating lots of women and having casual sex for a good while, something I feel I missed when I was young because I got married a little too soon, and because I then also missed all that good sex and experience I thought I was going to have in my marriage to make up for the lack of experience before marriage!

Today:

Yes, I'm sure I would eventually find casual sexual relationships to be "stale" after a while. But I wonder if it's really possible to immediately jump to level 6 without first having the perspective of the "stale" thing. Right now, "stale" looks pretty darn good to me. Isn't it kind of like telling a starving concentration camp inmate that he shouldn't settle for McDonald's when he can have gourmet food?

(post #1882811 - 2009-11-28 16:40:09)

Cinco, I agree with you, and I've been aware of those thoughts for a long time. I'm not fooling myself, I know darn well that I'm at Schnarch's level 2. I know I'm missing a lot. But on the other hand, I love sex and level 2 is still pretty damn fun. Part of it is that the level, variety, and frequency of sex in my marriage has been so meager that I'm basically at the late-teen stage of sexual "coming out" and exploration. Experiencing a woman responding physically is an absolutely new thing for me. Certain sexual positions are totally new for me. Having a woman wanting me to touch her breasts or her genitals, or even me permitting to do so, is TOTALLY NEW for me -- never experienced that in my life. So when you understand that, it's kind of "up in the clouds" to be talking about my need for soul-searching unions and blissful spiritual sex, etc. I'm quite happy to be operating at level 2 for a while until I get the hang of things. I'll let you know when that gets boring and I'm ready to move on to the higher levels!

And today:

As for the concept of moving forward, I would say, I want to move forward through a lot of really fun stale and intense physical sex, so I can later enjoy the more emotionally fulfilling sex. And there's a practical reason too, of course. I can't order up the latter overnight, but I can sure fill the time with the former until I get the latter. At this point, I don't relish the idea of waiting for sex until I have a good level 6 situation. That's setting the bar too high. I don't see why I shouldn't first totally enjoy "stale" sex until I get tired of it?

With regard to Scharch's levels of couple sexuality / intimacy, which I'll repeat here from Cyrena's post to you two years ago:

(post #1882014 - 2009-11-26 12:48:22)

In his hugely respected book about human growth and sexuality, David Schnarch outlines a hierarchy of levels of engagement with sex partners:

1) sexual predation
2) casual consentual sex, f*ck buddies, etc
3) relationships with some "emotional investment"
4) being aware of and trying to fulfil some of partner's emotions and needs
5) "Partners realize and appreciate each other's deepest core personality and potentials--pushing themselves to disclose their most private and personal truths."
6) profound bond with a single partner in which "sex becomes a form of spiritual communion celebrating the mysteries of life"

Obtaining 'level 6' is HARD work, and few couples ever achieve it. I know of only one on these boards, DanceQueen and her husband, but that's it. My own wife and I are still in the process of recovering from a long-term (20+ years) SSM (not sexless, but sex-starved), and I would consider us as only just now encroaching into 'level 5' territory most of the time (but not all). It's not easy stuff, and requires tearing down *all* of your previous fears and insecurities, and really learning to TRUST another person with your innermost, most vulnerable self.

I really have no advice to offer you SSMGuy, as DanceQueen and SillyOldBear did an excellent job of trying to help you in your previous thread. The only thing I wanted to show you was just how utterly *stuck* you seem to be, to the point that your writing here is chasing it's own tail, so to speak.

Take care,

-- B.