Yeah, we might be dead of old age by the time we achieve all that. Like you said, it's hard work.
Yes, it's hard work, but no, it's not insurmountable and I believe that you could rebuild a lot of that trust within several *months*, not years.
It would have to start, however, with you doing something like walking into the room where she hangs out, showing her the Playboy calendar, and telling her "I'm done with this now, and I don't want any other woman in the world but you. We're best friends, we've built a great family, we've shared more than half of our lived together. YOU are the one that I want -- not any of these." And then tear the calendar in half and throw it in the trash can. Then, stop going to the strip clubs, stop going to the massage parlor, stop going outside of your marriage to get your sexual needs met. Earn her trust again and show her that you only want her, exclusively, not just for physical intimacy but for emotional closeness and intimacy as well.
Now THAT would get her attention, and *show* her that you are serious about improving your relationship w.i.t.h. h.e.r.
Before showing her the stick (the potential for divorce), you need to show her the carrot (your determination and earned trust toward making things better).
However, based upon your writings here, I don't think you're ready to take this kind of drastic action and 'leap of faith'. Or are you?
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
And why do you think that will work? The whole thing with displaying anger doesn't work with her. What you're describing would result in her saying it's a turnoff when I'm angry like that. I have had lots of conversations when I was emphatic and very clear about that I wanted just her. She just took it as pressure. You know, it's really hard to convey in e-mail the whole body language and who I am as a person. I expecting your reply to be that I wasn't using the right tone and all that, because the words I chose above don't convey my tone and emotions from those times. I'm not a literary writer.
I don't know why you think what you're suggesting is new? Everybody thinks they're telling me new stuff.
I several times gave her some books, as you describe, with some rather emphatic words about how important it was to me. She took them as insults, and that I thought there was something wrong with her.
Years, ago, in a moment of relaxed honesty, she simply told me she was done with sex because it took too much time, and she didn't see the point in it. I didn't know what to say at the time, it was so different from my way of thinking.
.....What are you afraid her real reasons are? What's the worst belief she could have?
That you "wrecked" sex for her? Do you believe that?
IF so, we could work with that. (It's not a permanent or incurable condition.)
IF you don't believe or fear that, then why are you so afraid to tell your wife what this is really costing you and her? Bottom line-- If you truly want real sex badly enough,
but you are SURE you cannot have it inside the marriage--
then you have to have THE tough love talk with your wife.
And obviously follow through, or be stuck and learn to accept it.
It's not easy, but it is not that complicated either.
Good luck
Wow, great comments. The only thing I would change would be to expand on what you mean by "real sex" to the words, "if you want real sex badly enough" as I think that is what most people seek a real deep, intimate, enriching, soul-mate, relationship that bonds two people into a caring couple.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
...There are some similarities and some significant differences. When I married at age 24...
...I started working to connect with her again, and to really meet her needs, for the first time in years. At the same time, however, I set a deadline. I made sure that she understood that although (a) I was willing to bust my butt to make our relationship better, that (b) if things had not significantly improved in one year's time, we were done...we would separate for good and I would file for divorce. It was no bluff, and she knew it. The real breakthrough came in the fall, when I put a copy of MWD's "The Sex-Starved Marriage" down in front of her and asked her to read Chapter 1 as I left for work that day. When I got home that evening, she was in tears: the light bulb had gone off in her mind and she *finally* understood that I had been hurting just as much as she had been all those years. She got it, and we began moving forward together from that moment on. By the following winter, we were seeing a therapist who was a qualified individual counselor, couple's counselor, and AASECT sex therapist, and we utilized him in all three capacities for the next three years (2008-2010), until I again had to change jobs.
It's been no picnic, and we've come close to throwing in the towel a few times along the way, but we continue to make progress....
FWIW, I see two major problems with your current arrangement, SSMGuy:
(1) Your outside-the-marriage, casual sex activities PROVE to your wife, over and over, that for you, sex *isn't* about making love to her --> it's about pleasuring yourself. You've said that over and over again here, literally. While some women can engage in casual sex and enjoy it that way, *most* women cannot -- they need an emotional connection; they need to know that their man wants only *them*, and that it's about more than just physical pleasure. With every Playboy calendar that you accept at Christmas, with every trip to the strip-club, you prove to your wife over and over that for you, it's nothing more than 'scratching an itch', and that any old 'hole' will do. You keep proving to her that you DON'T want an intimate emotional connection with her. Thus, why should she want one with you? For her, that emotional connection is a REQUIREMENT for wanting to have sex with you: for her, sex and love are not separable.
(2) As DanceQueen pointed out over and over, you dropped the ball and never really pushed your wife hard enough to make the very tough decision to work her intimacy issues and abusive past. You never really held her feet to the fire, and instead left her with an easy out (your extra-marital activities). I know, from firsthand experience, that it's a very hard thing to do to firmly tell someone that either (a) we work these issues and start to fix things, or (b) we are done as a couple. You have to really mean it when you say that, and follow through with it if they take option (b). David Schnarch doesn't call such 'crunch points' the "crucible" for nothing. But there is really nothing else that will ever get your wife to budge and to face her fears and intimacy issues. Otherwise, she will take the easier, more comfortable route of doing nothing, and informing you of the next 'discount night' at the strip-club.
Take care,
-- B.
Wow.
First that is quite an inspirational story.
Second, I think that you have given ssmguy some great advice and something to contemplate as has 25yearmlc and the Captain.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
And why do you think that will work? The whole thing with displaying anger doesn't work with her. What you're describing would result in her saying it's a turnoff when I'm angry like that.
I said nor implied anything about being angry, SSMGuy. In fact, you are absolutely correct in that being angry while delivering the message that I recommended (and follow-up actions) would be ineffectual. Let me add a couple of words to what I said:
Originally Posted By: Bagheera
It would have to start, however, with you doing something like calmly walking into the room where she hangs out, showing her the Playboy calendar, and quietly but earnestly telling her "I'm done with this now, and I don't want any other woman in the world but you. We're best friends, we've built a great family, we've shared more than half of our lived together. YOU are the one that I want -- not any of these." And then matter-of-factly tearing the calendar in half and throwing it in the trash can and calmly walking away from it. Then, to follow this action, you stop going to the strip clubs, stop going to the massage parlor, stop going outside of your marriage to get your sexual needs met. Earn her trust again and show her that you only want her, exclusively, not just for physical intimacy but for emotional closeness and intimacy as well.
There is no "anger" in any of that. Just your quiet resolve to begin setting things right.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
.....What are you afraid her real reasons are? What's the worst belief she could have?
That you "wrecked" sex for her? Do you believe that?
IF so, we could work with that. (It's not a permanent or incurable condition.)
IF you don't believe or fear that, then why are you so afraid to tell your wife what this is really costing you and her? Bottom line-- If you truly want real sex badly enough,
but you are SURE you cannot have it inside the marriage--
then you have to have THE tough love talk with your wife.
And obviously follow through, or be stuck and learn to accept it.
It's not easy, but it is not that complicated either.
Good luck
Wow, great comments. The only thing I would change would be to expand on what you mean by "real sex" to the words, "if you want real sex badly enough" as I think that is what most people seek a real deep, intimate, enriching, soul-mate, relationship that bonds two people into a caring couple.
By "real sex", I meant sex with another person, as opposed to an orgasm from masturbation.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
And why do you think that will work? The whole thing with displaying anger doesn't work with her. What you're describing would result in her saying it's a turnoff when I'm angry like that. I have had lots of conversations when I was emphatic and very clear about that I wanted just her. She just took it as pressure. You know, it's really hard to convey in e-mail the whole body language and who I am as a person. I expecting your reply to be that I wasn't using the right tone and all that, because the words I chose above don't convey my tone and emotions from those times. I'm not a literary writer.
I don't know why you think what you're suggesting is new? Everybody thinks they're telling me new stuff.
I several times gave her some books, as you describe, with some rather emphatic words about how important it was to me. She took them as insults, and that I thought there was something wrong with her.
Well, if what you say about her is accurate, there IS something wrong with her. Stop dancing around that.
It's not a simple "preference" of hers. She isn't choosing peas over carrots. She's not saying "I don't like sex as often"....
she is saying NO Sex, ever, AND no touching me in the pleasurable areas of my body...
Years, ago, in a moment of relaxed honesty, she simply told me she was done with sex because it took too much time, and she didn't see the point in it. I didn't know what to say at the time, it was so different from my way of thinking.
In moments of anger at you, what else has she said? Surely there is something negative about you or an insult that got hurled your way? This is where I think you get too vague. It doesn't make sense to me, even beyond the regular crazy element here.
Second, What anger in Bag's post are you referring to? Bag did NOT suggest any anger towards your w; on the contrary. The suggestion is that your wife be made to feel you want HER, not just sex.
You claim to want to know what you can do differently, and there it is. Stop making it obvious that "although you'd prefer" her, you'll take anything
and it better not be a lot of work IF there is no guaranteed pay off. It makes it all about the orgasm and frankly that's not mature.
Also, Her buying you Playboys--I can't tell if that was a test you failed or just a sad statement of affairs.
My brother and wife had in vitro fertizilation, my brother had to go into the back room "for his donation". No one offered him a magazine. He had his wife w/him.
The magazines are for men without partners...
Okay we'll all agree for the sake of discussion that you got "Stuck" w/a wacky wife who has MAJOR issues with sex...fine, granted.
Like many people here in different situations, You got dealt a bad hand. But you have not played your hand well, imo.
Yes, you stayed married, technically, but I have to wonder at what costs.
Not just costs to you either. You don't think your kids know about your extramarital interests?
How does it feel to think of your d's finding your girlie mags, or learning about the strippers and other interests?
And if you think the strip clubs/play boys made your w feel that you wanted HER
you are kidding yourself again. But you don't believe that do you? And you don't care??
Most women I know, view strip clubs as consisting of 2 groups of customers.
Group 1 is a bunch of young guys going to a bachelor's party before a wedding; who laugh and drink a lot, or the same group recapturing their youth every 5 years...
Group 2 is made up the kind of man who can't see and touch a naked woman in his own life, but is so lonely for that type of "intimacy" that he pays for it.
If my h were to go there with any frequency, I'd literally be worried about him. (And turned off).
Hookers, playboy magazines, doing yourself often, a stripper, it all just looks like a one sided sex deal. (and It IS.)--there is nothing mutual and you've been "practicing" this self only sex for years.
So of course it's not a sexual turn on for a woman. Watching her h get turned on by OWs or photos of, or just knowing he is, is a turn Off. I think you are missing a major piece of this puzzle with years of just getting your needs met/itch scratched, and not doing the work to get your w's problems worked on.
Even though you sound as if you made some great efforts once upon a time, you also admitted that you "assumed it would improve" so even that effort only goes so deep.
If you are the type of guy who'd self serve for years and be okay with it--which you are, by definition--that hurts the cause.
I mean, None of that stripper/playboy masturbation without her involvement would change a normal woman's mind or put her in the mood.
And since your w isn't in that "normal" category, it just validates her negative views of your objectification of sex.
What if you told her you'd have no sex of any kind until it was with her, AND "there must to be sex in this marriage and you meant it?
Yes of course there might be a few weeks of you not getting your usual dose...but what if she could not rationalize that your "needs are being met"?
Besides, how rewarding are the outside of marriage sexual experiences?
Something is still missing, if you are still here.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
... I made sure that she understood that although (a) I was willing to bust my butt to make our relationship better, that (b) if things had not significantly improved in one year's time, we were done...we would separate for good and I would file for divorce. It was no bluff, and she knew it. The real breakthrough came in the fall, when I put a copy of MWD's "The Sex-Starved Marriage" down in front of her and asked her to read Chapter 1 as I left for work that day. When I got home that evening, she was in tears: the light bulb had gone off in her mind and she *finally* understood that I had been hurting just as much as she had been all those years. She got it, and we began moving forward together from that moment on. By the following winter, we were seeing a therapist who was a qualified individual counselor, couple's counselor, and AASECT sex therapist, and we utilized him in all three capacities for the next three years (2008-2010), until I again had to change jobs.
Though I will certainly admit I did not threaten to leave AND go through with it, I did something pretty close to what you're suggesting about 10 years ago. I told her how very much it would mean to me if she came with me to a good sex therapy program. It took a lot of convincing, and they gave me advice to tell her to get her to come in. I also gave her several books along the way, telling her how important it was to me. In once case, she refused to read it. In another case, she said she felt the material in the book felt very critical of her and made her feel guilty. In a third case, I think she threw the book away -- I never saw it again. And as I've said before, she discontinued the therapy, saying it was too stressful -- not that I was the problem -- she thought the therapists were the problem. She didn't want another therapist, she wanted to discontinue it altogether. And she was much happier when she had decided that she wasn't going to go anymore. I'm having trouble really believing that your approach of threatening to leave and doing it would have produced different results. I'm suspicious that the reasoning is simply by elimination here -- "Hey, that's the one thing you haven't tried so -- obviously -- that would have made the difference." Given what I've been through, that just seems like grasping at straws. Your wife breaking down in tears and all sounds totally out of character for my wife in that situation. She would have just felt huge guilt and stress about the pressure. And I believe her reluctance to examine her sexual issues is stronger than her reluctance to split up. If you ask her if she'd like to divorce, she says no. If you ask her if she'd like to talk about our sexual issues, it's like it's totally verboten and you can't even talk about it. So it's hard to see how I really have any choices besides staying in an SSM, or getting a divorce.
And I believe her reluctance to examine her sexual issues is stronger than her reluctance to split up. If you ask her if she'd like to divorce, she says no. If you ask her if she'd like to talk about our sexual issues, it's like it's totally verboten and you can't even talk about it. So it's hard to see how I really have any choices besides staying in an SSM, or getting a divorce.
You may well be correct. Recovering from childhood sexual abuse is a painful journey, and one that not many abuse victims complete successfully. Based upon your descriptions of your wife's behavior, I would say that had you delivered the sort of ultimatum to her that I did my wife, back when you were trying to improve your marriage and before you stepped outside of it to fulfill your sexual needs, that your chances were probably 'low' that she would have said yes to pursuing further therapy, and may indeed have opted for divorce instead.
However, my point to you today has been that now that you have stepped outside of your marriage to fulfill your sexual needs, and have been doing so for at least a couple of years now, that you have effectively removed ANY chance that she would choose to stay with you and work her abuse issues over the choice of divorce. In my opinion, your actions have reduced that chance from 'low' to none.
That is why I recommended the course of action that I did -- giving up your extramarital shenanigans -- in order to restore trust and restore at least the 'low' chance that you did have previously.
I'm not just making this, SSMGuy. Go look over your relationship books on the issue of recovering a marriage from infidelity. Every single one of them will tell you that the very first step toward marriage recovery is that the infidelity MUST STOP before any real progress can be made. Go look over the infidelity forum here on this site, and you'll see the same story. By continuing to step outside of your marriage to get your sexual needs met, you are essentially locking yourself into the exact two choices that you outlined above.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
