Are there any midlife women who want daily sex?

[25yearsmlc]

I think I understand the first part of the post. You discussed a woman never having one, then going through menopause and the rest, and really never getting what it's all about. That means she's one of the rare women who never explored her own bodies and never allowed her body to be pleasantly explored.

Plus even my friends who were virgins placed a high priority on having a good sex life later on. They knew that pleasing their h's was a big deal for their h's ego, as well as their owns.

So I don't understand how your w never ever heard her friends or another woman somewhere talking about sex and liking it. Seriously, Who does she surround herself with? Those conversations are where the part about doing it for the man/h would come in. And liking it.

And the information about sex too. She'd know she wasnt' typical. At least if she told someone, her confessing -that shes never had one -or teling her doctor. That's how she'd learn to give herself one or give herself permission to seek it, or to figure out why she had not had one. She'd know it wasn't you who wasn't typical, but her.

I accept what you are telling me but don't see how it happened. Are you of a different culture?

As for the last part, the questions you asked about what I'd do if my h had never had an O, and I had never seen a man have one, and what I'd do if all else was great in the m? Sorry but The fact pattern is inherently contradictory for me. So it's Very hard to imagine.

It presumes so much that's not applicable to my background or history SSm. Sorry. I have a hard time imagining it.

Though I was not promiscuous before I was married, I knew enough for comparative purposes & had a healthy interest in sex. I considered it a significant factor in "chemistry" when selecting a bf or h. If a bf was too grabby or abrupt, or too forward while dating, or too timid, we didn't date for long.

H and I were very compatible in bed and that factored into how much passion we felt for eachother (certainly not the only factor but yes, it was a biggie).
And that factored into our choosing each other as mates.

I do know what it's like to love a man who just isn't a good physical match though.

I still care very much for him even now. But we were not compatible enough in the physical arena. He seemed to confuse physical pressure with passion or something. He wasn't "bad" at making out or things and I'm sure he learned with time. He just wasn't experienced. But He was a great love of mine. He was poetic and also hilarious and smart and kind and now is a successful CEO and married now.

Here's the thing--while He could easily have been my "best friend for life"--- he simply didn't give me the "sparks" the way h did. He was less experienced than h but that might have been surmountable if we'd had time... But I had to choose. I went with the passion, and that happened to be with the man who had the experience.

I sensed that H and I BELONGED to each other in a way that includes giving ourselves to each other. While I could imagine being "friends" with T, but Not so with my h. No, it was an all or nothing. We'd belong to each other in every way - or we'd go our separate ways. Too much chemistry and passion for less.

God SSM, I'm rambling...to answer your question, I can't...

IT's so foreign to me. So opposite.

I Don't know if it's womanly pride/ego as a lover or paranoia about losing my man to some OW, But I would not marry a man I had not experienced an O with. So your question presumes a scenario that can't apply.
So I can't see being in the situation you suggest, from the get go.

Didn't your w ever explore herself? There's no shame in that.

My kids talk about sex w/me, as my siblings and parents did before. (Well, not exactly as we did before).

My s25 told me once, after something about HIV on the radio, that he has no problem with ""always using condoms if the girl wants me to" (I was driving and NOT expecting that comment)...but it lead to a good discussion albeit an awkward one. He mentioned that "if both people haven't climaxed at the end of making love- then somebody still has work to do."....He's only 25, but he gets it.

I have to wonder about your w's background and childhood and what her siblings are like. Not the abuse thing but the general attitude and talking about sex...the expectations being so low on her end. It's like not tasting food only no one told her that it can taste good. I can't explain why she doesn't know this.

Didn't she have friends making out in the movies, or the back seat of a car, or something? I know my oldest brother stinks in bed b/c of the women I know who've been with him & told me. (It's NOT information I wanted to have...Plus we double dated...gross).

I also know at least 2 of my other brothers take great pride in their capabilities and have gotten complimented by their wives or gf's in public....to their delight.

So How can your w have never been around such talk? She never discussed sex with her siblings or cousins or roomates or anyone? Even now?

A long time ago a very risque friend told me something that shocked me then. She said she'd "never marry a man without checking under the hood first."
If I were single today, I WOULD get the whole engine checked before putting a ring on.

Which makes your question too unrealistic for me. It is like saying asking me:

What if you married a man with values so different than yours...

or what if you married a man you were not attracted to.....

or what if you married a man who would never please you sexually...

See, I would not marry any of those^^^ men...in the first place.

Sorry ssm. I don't think thats helping you much.

[Cyrena]

Sorry that you feel like it's a stunt.

It's my wife who would think it was a stunt. I've learned the hard way that putting her in an "ultimatum box" doesn't really work. Perhaps it's related to the powerlessness related to SA, not sure. What I mean is it doesn't work because she will frustrate the process in a way that takes my power away so to speak. In this example with the two sets of papers, what she'd do is leave them there and tell me she'd look them over later. And then probably throw them out.

Once again, an ultimatum has never worked for you because you've never meant it. (You have several children--have you never had to deliver an ultimatum and then stand behind it when they tested you? It only works IF YOU ARE DETERMINED TO FOLLOW THROUGH.) If you would meekly say, "Sure, it's up to you whether you ever even look at them" and then let the issue slide, it would be crystal clear to her that your normally passive attitude hadn't changed.

Also, nobody can "take your power away." You can, however, GIVE it away. And when people do that, it's usually because they're meeting their own unaddressed needs.

[ssmguy]

Once again, an ultimatum has never worked for you because you've never meant it.

I wish it were that simple. And there were times when I was anything but a meek about it.

About 17 years ago, we separated for a few months primarily over this issue. We didn't even speak to each other. Then things thawed and my "ultimatum" seemed to register with her. And we had sex for a while, which gradually tapered off, and then it was back to an SSM.

So, an ulimatum may seem clean and simple, but it is not. The only clean and simple option in a strategic sense is to just leave PERMANENTLY.

And I don't want to do that at this point. So if you want to say that I'm stuck because I'm not willing to leave, yeah, what could be more obvious?

[ssmguy]

25yearsmlc, I can see you're doing the "putting yourself in her shoes" kind of thing, and coming up with the assumption that she never heard anybody speak of sex and that she's generally ignorant. She's a Merit Scholar Finalist, got into the top colleges, and read "The Joy of Sex" way back when. It's not a question of ignorance. It's an emotional issue, perhaps a combination of inadequacy or shame, etc. There are plenty of people who are doing "stupid" things like bingeing and purging, or overeating, even though they got Ph.D's from Ivy League schools. This is not a matter of intelligence or coming from a backward culture.

Yes, she knows she's not typical, and that's apparently what she has trouble dealing with because she has so greatly excelled in other areas. Perhaps she can't accept that she can't seem to "measure up" in this area, not even to an "average" level. I don't know.

So you say you would not have married your H if he told you he had never had an O when you first met him? Do you think that same standard should apply to both genders? Should men refuse to get involved with or marry women who can't have an O? Not sure everybody would agree with you on that one. I went on the advice of many books, which pointed out that many women peak sexually later in life when they become more comfortable with their bodies, etc. And what if a woman is faking it?

I have to emphasize that we had a lot of attraction chemistry early on. She was definitely turned on, though she never had an O. Lubrication was great. It did not start off as an SSM. But in retrospect, it was all kind of "flash in the pan" novelty for her. Which seems understandable to me if you never have an O.

OK, as a man, I would certainly agree with you when you say you would never marry a man you had not experienced an O with you. Certainly, I would NEVER marry a woman I NEVER had an O with!!!! Not any question about that whatsoever!! But should my wife have applied the same test to me? If so, she might never have gotten married. Would you really recommend that to a woman who had never had an O?

[25yearsmlc]

25yearsmlc, I can see you're doing the "putting yourself in her shoes" kind of thing, and coming up with the assumption that she never heard anybody speak of sex and that she's generally ignorant. She's a Merit Scholar Finalist, got into the top colleges, and read "The Joy of Sex" way back when. It's not a question of ignorance. It's an emotional issue, perhaps a combination of inadequacy or shame, etc.

I believe I ASKED you if she ever had friends or family talk about it, or (make out in the car or at movie theater" near her) to see if she knows how unusual she is. Certainly sounds like it's not ignorance.

But is it physical? OR all emotional? I still don't know.

There are plenty of people who are doing "stupid" things like bingeing and purging, or overeating, even though they got Ph.D's from Ivy League schools. This is not a matter of intelligence or coming from a backward culture.

I asked if she came from another culture b/c of the obvious possibility of shame being an issue. You didn't directly answer but I'm going to assume she's caucasian from the US.

As far as smart people doing stupid things, point taken.

Yes, she knows she's not typical, and that's apparently what she has trouble dealing with because she has so greatly excelled in other areas. Perhaps she can't accept that she can't seem to "measure up" in this area, not even to an "average" level. I don't know.

So if she knows she's not typical, what's with calling you the sex addict? Why does she make it about YOUR problem if she knows this?

So you say you would not have married your H if he told you he had never had an O when you first met him?

That's not what I said. Why would he "TELL" me he never had one. B/C he is sterile?

When we dated, my h and I mutually decided to discover whether we were sexually compatible before we married. We were. That mattered a lot to me.

My older sister left her 1st h b/c he was not interested in sex after 3 years of m and didn't really think he wanted kids. "Too tired"...she was 24 y/o. She got it annulled.

IF he were unable to achieve an O, I would not have married him and I'd wonder if he could have children. That also mattered to me. I'd have to know we could have a good sex life and adopt. But to lose out on both counts, no kids AND no good sex? FOR ME, not interested. Too many other men who could do both at that time.

Do you think that same standard should apply to both genders? Should men refuse to get involved with or marry women who can't have an O? Not sure everybody would agree with you on that one.

Stop projecting my very PERSONAL reply onto others OR pretending I said that fits everyone else. It doesn't.

It's MY personal values and beliefs about what would make and keep ME happy over the years. YOU ASKED ME...

Sex was and is important to me and it's the one need I have that ONLY my h can fulfill, b/c we are not in an open m and don't want to be. So it was crucial for me to know this about the man I married, and HE wanted to know the same thing of me.

H had been with OWs before me. He said sexual compatibility was important to him as well. We had fun in bed and we still do. That was and IS important to US, AS A COUPLE...it's obviously Not important to every couple.

I have said at least 4 times, if less sex or no sex is fine with both people, then it's FINE....I'm not telling you that you are "wrong".

I went on the advice of many books, which pointed out that many women peak sexually later in life when they become more comfortable with their bodies, etc. And what if a woman is faking it?

What if she is? I don't know what to say to that. it's a lousy thing to do to a guy. But you didn't say your w faked.

As far as you relying on the "advice of many books" what can I say to that which would be useful for you to hear now? That I think you should have done so? No I don't.

I told you that one of my brother's had the very experience of being lied to (his ex w faked while they dated and only shared with him afterwards, that she needed certain gadgets to achieve one).

So he went out and bought several. Though the feeling of being defrauded remained for a long time, their sex life did improve.


I have to emphasize that we had a lot of attraction chemistry early on. She was definitely turned on, though she never had an O. Lubrication was great. It did not start off as an SSM. But in retrospect, it was all kind of "flash in the pan" novelty for her. Which seems understandable to me if you never have an O.

well okay. Glad to hear that there was chemistry at first. But Maybe a lot of this is 20-20 hindsight. IDK. Not sure about the flash in the pan or what was done to help her out.

I know I was attracted to a guy I dated but he was a terrible kisser. Everything else in our r was great and he was handsome. I loved him.

But he confused physical pressure with...passion? Just didn't work for me at all. I think my lips did get puffy after we'd make out and it wasn't fun for me. I never slept with him. Why bother? If he kissed like that, i didn't think going farther was going to be super fun for me.


OK, as a man, I would certainly agree with you when you say you would never marry a man you had not experienced an O with you. Certainly, I would NEVER marry a woman I NEVER had an O with!!!! Not any question about that whatsoever!!

But should my wife have applied the same test to me? If so, she might never have gotten married. Would you really recommend that to a woman who had never had an O?

I didn't "recommend" that, let alone to a woman with problems having an orgasm. How could I apply that to them?

You're AGAIN projecting my personal comments and needs and pretending I think ALL women have to follow suit - AND even women who have never had one.
I said that, as a woman who HAS had them & enjoys an active sex life and has for a long time, I myself would not marry a man with whom I had not shared one.
I stand by that, for ME.

As for your w, if I were HER, and I had NEVER experienced one, on one hand it MIGHT not seem important b/c if you've never seen the color blue you don't know what you are missing.

But given what I will assume she knows since she read that book--if it were me not ever having one--- I'd see a doctor and get a full work up. Of THAT, I am sure.

I'd find out if it was your issue, or mine, or ours, and I would explore my body and buy equipment or toys and I would do the work it takes.

But SSM, maybe that's because I DO KNOW what I'd be missing.

So maybe my opinion there has no merit?

Still, given her obvious IQ and the fact that she ONCE was into it...yeah I would think it must bother her and for the life of me, I don't know why she hasn't worked on it, just for her own sake, completely aside from you or your needs.

That is what I, 25, would do if I could not have at least a pleasant sexual experience - when I am educated enough to know that the overwhelming majority of women DO.

I'm NOT saying ALL women must do as I do...

just answering what YOU asked ME about MY preferences.

And ssm, my question is whether deep down you fear that it is You she feels is off base here?

Meaning, what if, just what if, she was very disappointed in the sexual experiences she had with you?

What if she loves you enough to give up on sex entirely, all her life, and stay m to you anyhow?

have you asked her directly but in a good calm time,

if you did something that did NOT please her that she hasn't let go of?

And finally, do you know if she has ruled out any physical or medical reasons for her not enjoying it more?

If I were going to my grave never having sex again, I would want to know why.

[ssmguy]

25yearsmlc, I appreciate that you don't think all women should follow suit. And I appreciate you stating your opinions in any case and why you feel that way. I feel I'm learning something from the thoughts of various women, especially since my wife seems to be a little bit off the normal path in this regard.

Indeed, she might be disappointed with the sexual experiences she had with me. I've certainly asked her, and the only sexual complaint has been that I want it too often, or that I want it at all (in later years). She has never - not once - complained about my not touching her enough, etc. The only touching complaints have been to avoid her private areas, no exceptions.

Yes, she used to think I was a bit off base until we went to sex therapy, after which she seemed to complain less about my desire for a sexual relationship. She accepts it as normal, though she doesn't want to participate herself.

And yes, I have mentioned to her that if we keep up the way we have for the last decade, we'll never have sex. She lets the moment pass without comment. If I were to repeat the statement, she would say I'm pressuring her and that's not sexy.

[25yearsmlc]

Ironically,

tonight I met a woman who says her sister hasn't had sex for 3 years with her h. They sleep in separate rooms and it began, supposedly, b/c he snores and tjat drove her crazy. She went to the guest room first, to "get some sleep".

I THINK he felt rejected...but she complained that the bed in that guest room hurt her back so her h volunteered to take that bed...and then a few months passes and she said "hey you are always sleeping in that bed now and not in our bed.' To which the h said "You don't want me there b/c I snore too much" (Translate--you don't want me... and I'm hurt)

To HER, he had rejected HER by leaving the bed permanently...and to him HE had been rejected for a long time. While I can see this "Mexican Stand off" lasting maybe a week...but three years? 3 YEARS??

I am guessing her complaint about the bed being painful was a ploy for her h to do something about the snoring b/c she HAS complained about it before like she wants a surgical solution. Guess that doesn't have to happen now...

grow up. Someone, please, give in and go to the other...

25yearsmlc, I appreciate that you don't think all women should follow suit. And I appreciate you stating your opinions in any case and why you feel that way. I feel I'm learning something from the thoughts of various women, especially since my wife seems to be a little bit off the normal path in this regard.

Indeed, she might be disappointed with the sexual experiences she had with me.

You may want to assume that and tell her how bad it makes you feel. Let her reeassure YOU.

I've certainly asked her, and the only sexual complaint has been that I want it too often, or that I want it at all (in later years). She has never - not once - complained about my not touching her enough, etc. The only touching complaints have been to avoid her private areas, no exceptions.


Any explanation for that^^^, at all? That's pretty crucial to discuss....And do you talk about this in the heat of the moment while you feel rejected or have you had heart to heart "no pressure BUT we have to discuss this" ways?

Yes, she used to think I was a bit off base until we went to sex therapy, after which she seemed to complain less about my desire for a sexual relationship. She accepts it as normal, though she doesn't want to participate herself.

And yes, I have mentioned to her that if we keep up the way we have for the last decade, we'll never have sex. She lets the moment pass without comment.

What does she think will happen? nothing...


If I were to repeat the statement, she would say I'm pressuring her and that's not sexy.

so what IS sexy? To her? Please, God, tell us...

[Cyrena]

IDK, 25, but I can in part relate to SSM's wife. Coming from a background of abuse, I unconsciously wanted to prove that I wasn't "at fault" for attracting that sexual attention, and therefore part of my brain tried not to see myself as sexy. I too was initially eager to engage with my H, yet holding back, which diminished the amount of pleasure I was able to feel. Later, as issues arose in the M--that inevitable power struggle which Gottman details--we both felt somewhat hurt and rejected by the other, which resulted in me unwittingly "freezing" all my private areas, as I much later realized I'd done every time my abuser approached me. I literally could not feel my H's hand as he touched those areas, and I didn't have a clue what to do about it. He of course felt rejected, I thought it was something he was doing/not doing, he started to stonewall so that I couldn't try to talk about what I thought was happening, and so intimacy devolved.

That said, I was able to pleasure myself, I did experience O's, and because we did still love each other, we were eventually able to do the work to create a wonderful relationship, sexually and emotionally. SSM's wife's position is more extreme than mine, but I think I can understand how she got there. I can't understand why she wants to stay there, but then I find SSM's absolute rejection of all suggestions of change equally mystifying.

[ssmguy]

... but then I find SSM's absolute rejection of all suggestions of change equally mystifying.

I likewise find that comment mystifying. Unless you mean my resistance to trying something for the 5th time, etc., that has not worked in the past. But I'm not singling you out. Almost everyone here seems to me (my impression, not a fact necessarily) to think that I just fell off the turnip truck, just realized I have a problem, and am turning up here for my first round of advice. Rather, I've spent 15 years dealing with this issue with many therapists, who also did not just fall of their turnip trucks.

The length of time that I've been in this situation has skewed my perspective on what a normal relationship is like, and so it has been helpful to see what other people think is normal in a relationship. But as for advice as to what to do, I'm a harder luck case than the people who turn up here with a fresh problem.

Nothing mystifying about that.

[ssmguy]

tonight I met a woman who says her sister hasn't had sex for 3 years with her h. They sleep in separate rooms and it began, supposedly, b/c he snores and tjat drove her crazy. She went to the guest room first, to "get some sleep".

Sounds very typical for a couple where there is already latent anger on both sides, and then the snoring thing just becomes an indirect method to express the anger. If two newlyweds who were madly in love had a problem with one of them snoring, they'd find creative and loving ways to accomodate it. In fact, the snoring problem might even be regarded as "cute" or "endearing".

...Any explanation for that^^^, at all? That's pretty crucial to discuss....And do you talk about this in the heat of the moment while you feel rejected or have you had heart to heart "no pressure BUT we have to discuss this" ways?

I've brought it up both in the heat of the moment and in quiet moments. Basically, she does not want to discuss it, ever. Never got an explanation, ever. Nada, zilch, zero.

so what IS sexy? To her? Please, God, tell us...

I have asked her, and she'll respond with something like, watching a movie together. And so we do, and she likes the movie, and enjoys the time, and says she enjoyed it. But it never results in sex. If I ask, she says she's too tired. It's like, what's the point in asking. If I press it further and say this is ridiculous, she doesn't want to talk about it.

I'm not kidding. Everything else is fine. It's just this little area of discussion that if I try to talk about it rationally, this very rational successful person just goes into some kind of depressive funk and stonewalls until the moment passes and we can get on with other things. She'd rather I just grab the Playboy and head for the bathroom.