Thought it would be done by now...part 3

[lifejustgothard2]

Okay. 25 had said stay the course! Isn't that what she meant? 25??

[25yearsmlc]

Okay. 25 had said stay the course! Isn't that what she meant? 25??

I said stay the course...yes, meaning protect yourself, and detach.

IF ----and I mean IF, you are NOT in financial danger now, and

IF you do not need to complete the divorce to keep the court ordered support in effect AND IF you would not financially be better off by divorcing

(b/c Sometimes it makes a difference and sometimes the WAS still uses marital assets or hurts your credit, etc.)

assuming all that, what is there to do?
You mean, Finalize it b/c you said you would?

IF it were ME, yes I'd do so b/c I don't think I could stand around waiting for someone SO unwilling to demonstrate any adult like commitment to our children or me or our marriage and I'd move on. I would also believe that at this point the only chance your h has of waking up is by not being enabled so much But I would only file for divorce b/c I was prepared to..and yes I think I would be.

But I'm not you. You have made many choices I would not have made, and that does not make you wrong. But at this point you seem really STUCK and paralyzed and I think your ego has taken too many beatings for you to see straight in some ways....I honestly don't get your confusion about him...

My h was gone 2 years, off and on. But there were none of the other issues you face.

ONCE i filed for a sep - it protected our home from some idiotic "Investment" idea of h's con artist heroes...and our bills were then getting paid.
He was 3000 miles away but would visit and those were challenging times.
But I knew I had an internal deadline at which point I'd free myself of him.

Til then, I felt safe enough to wait for the oldest d to graduate from high school, thereby delaying upheaval in their lives,

After she graduated, if we had not reconciled, THEN I'd have made my move.

But that's me and my sitch.


In your sitch, I would NOT initiate ANY contact with him.

Your L can handle any and ALL financial matters and legal matters. Your kids are old enough to talk on the phone so if he calls them, you say, "here they are" and you hand the phone to them.

He can tell them if he has a need to talk directly with you. Then you take the call.

If he repeatedly SAYS that he does "not WANT" the divorce,

you can say, "Maybe so. But what's been going on isn't fair to me. Your behavior says you don't want to be married to me."

And then get off the phone. You really want to know what I THINK is going on with him? Well, I could be wrong but

To ME, His actions say


"I WANT TO DRINK AS MUCH AS I WANT. I WANT TO LIVE WITH OW

AND SOMETIMES I MAY WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU TOO....

ALSO I WANT MY 'FAMILY GUY/DADDY FIX' WHENEVER I GET THE ITCH. YOU ARE TO HAVE NO EXPECTATIONS OF ME. DO NOT EVEN EXPECT ME TO SHOW UP WHEN I SAY I WILL OR TO FOLLOW UP ON PROMISES MADE A 100 TIMES...

AND YOU ARE TO BE THERE WHEN I AM SO I DON'T HAVE TOO MUCH RESPONSIBILITY, UNLESS YOU MAKE ME UNCOMFORTABLE AND THEN YOU MUST LEAVE OR LET ME TAKE THEM WHEREVER I WANT AND BRING THEM BACK WHEN I FEEL LIKE IT, AND YOU ARE TO BE GRATEFUL B/C I AM THERE...

BUT HECK NO, I DO NOT WANT A DIVORCE....

A DIVORCE WOULD MEAN YOU COULD MOVE ON AND MAYBE BE HAPPY WITHOUT ME,

AND NOT STILL PINE AND NEED ME SO MY FRAGILE EGO CAN REMAIN STOKED...

PLUS, OW WOULD EXPECT ME TO DO SOMETHING FOR HER, LIKE COMMIT, OR MARRY HER...AND MY EXCUSE FOR DELAYING THAT, WOULD BE GONE. SHE'D HAVE AN EXPECATION OF ME...AND I HATE THOSE...

AND A DIVORE WOULD MAKE MY 'DADDY FIXES' BE ON SOME SORT OF RELIABLE SCHEDULE AND I'D HAVE TO PAY YOU SUPPORT REGULARLY AND PROBABLY MORE....AND A COURT AND POSSIBLY OTHERS, WOULD OPENLY HAVE EXPECTATIONS OF ME...AND WHEN I FAIL TO MEET THOSE EXPECTATIONS, THERE WOULD BE CONSEQUENCES, AND I HATE THOSE...

OH, BTW, I'M MISERABLE...MY LIFE IS TERRIBLE...AND I WILL NOT CHANGE A THING I DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE."

So, you bet he doesn't "want" a divorce. But he also does not "want" to be married to you, or at least to have to act like he is.

If finalizing it would help you financially, then by all means do it. No brainer.

If not, then decide if you are prepared to declare this battle lost. NOT THE WAR, but the battle.

B/C living as you are now, seems insane to me.

Divorcing him just declares your enabling & participating in the insanity, over for you. Internally it probably makes it easier for you to DETACH and move forward,
although I'm not sure why you can't date now (but not with your kids' knowing. That's too much for them at this stage).

Why do you feel that YOU would be responsible for the demise of the marriage b/c you formally ended the insanity? WHY would it then be your fault?

You think if HE files, only THAT would make him responsible for the end of the marriage BUT NOT BEFORE THEN??

Aren't the reasons for the present day problems, (not years ago or what lead up to it)
that
*he's an alcoholic,
*actively having an adulterous affair

*AND who lives with OW and
*was not paying the bills til forced to
*AND who isn't the father he was or should be
*AND isn't the husband he was or should be?

First of all, He can always make a move towards you later if he wants.

Once he tastes the full freedom he ACTS like he wants, he can DO something about it.


OR before it's finalized, he can ACT like someone who wants to be married to you, and move out of or kick OW out of where they live.

AND HE CAN ATTEND AA...

But if you are content with whatever this is that you have, and the kids are financially protected, then do what you can to detach.

Just seems to me that you are not content.

And that means, what you know/fear it means, which is that You have to act.

Are you seeing a T? Sure think it would help you b/c you are a wonderful sounding mom, and smart woman

who somehow is blinded to reality, by THIS man....and I don't get it anymore.

It's not new. It's not different. (I only go by actions).

And that virtual PROVERB we have here is So applicable that it's obvious why it's the mantra here...

"Believe nothing they SAY and only half of what they DO."

what exactly are you confused by now?

If it's "Why" he's doing this, then I will really want to just stab my eye out!

It does not matter why and it's not answerable and THERE are no good reasons for it anyhow...so end that useless waste of time.

and move on, in some form, soon...life is short.
((( )))

[lifejustgothard2]

25-with all due respect isn't his behavior much kike the majority of mlc/was? Isn't even the alcol and/or OW just a bandaid? Why is my sitch really any different than others? I hope u know I truly value your advice but this is where I'm confused too. Financially we are stabilized now and getting debt paid off. He has already wrecked my credit. So aren't I just waiting but living my life hoping he emerges from the tunnel? Thanks

[25yearsmlc]

25-with all due respect isn't his behavior much kike the majority of mlc/was? Isn't even the alcol and/or OW just a bandaid?

Your h is an alcoholic. If I knew "why" he was, I'd have solved a problem that baffles experts. My father was a PhD and a lawyer and a brilliant and articulate man. He was also a raging alcoholic at night. I don't know why. I only know he suffered from depression but which came first, I don't know.


Why is my sitch really any different than others?

Maybe it's not. But what I see in yours are 2-3 things that are different than most.

The alcoholism is a huge problem you seem to minimize. That makes me think there are some other underlying issues you have as a couple and you personally have with co-dependency and denial...

Second, unlike the typical MLCer (Whatever "typical" means) your h does not blame you or lash out.

He cries and whines and plays a victim game that seems designed to keep you in place.

Whether that is emotional stuckness he wants from you, or legal paralysis, or both or what, I don't know.

But most of them want OUT of the marriage and get OWs and claim to be "happier than ever w/OW" and claim they found "real love with the OWs"

but you say your h does none of those things. And that seems to you to mean he's MORE likely to come home...but he has not.

But I'm no expert....see my other comments below for my other "random thoughts"...


I hope u know I truly value your advice but this is where I'm confused too. Financially we are stabilized now and getting debt paid off.


I asked you about this and now you are answering. It's not information I had before.

But there's still a lot of confusing mixed messages you send me. IMO you swing back and forth, and I respond to that.


He has already wrecked my credit. So aren't I just waiting but living my life hoping he emerges from the tunnel? Thanks

First, his wrecking your credit isn't much of an endorsement for waiting it out...but okay, aside from that....

I asked if you are fine financially now. So if you are, and if you want, go ahead and "then live your life hoping he emerges from the tunnel..."

now tell me, how's that going for YOU?

B/c Life2, you just don't seem happy to me. You don't seem at peace with the situation and you sure don't seem fine with "waiting til he emerges". You read into things he does and does NOT do...you obsess and often You seem panicky and very sad.

Also, unlike other MLCers that I have noticed

your h delays YOUR progress by crying about HIS situation, as I said above.

he plays a weird "buy time game" I have not seen elsewhere.

The fact that you are not attaching any conditions to his drinking bothers me. You rarely bring it up as a concern.

OW is a much bigger issue to you and to me, she's more likely the bandaid, NOT the alcoholism, which really is a lifelong disease.

I don't know his other issues nor am I qualified to assess them...but I'm sure he has some.

And I do know addicts and alcoholics and have been through a 12 step program myself and been the d of a drunk.
My father quit drinking a few times, and finally when he was diagnosed with liver cancer, he remained sober for 59 days, when he died.


Yes I did say that I, "25" would not wait past my internal timeline. We all have one, but we just don't all know when it is til it hits us.

In my case I had a goal of getting d1 out of high school and once that was done, if we were not reconciled, I would have moved on...or maybe I would change my mind ( I doubt it b/c I had met other men who were nice and attractive and attentive and not 3000 miles away).

You DO NOT have to do what I would do....but you sure don't seem at peace with waiting til he emerges

It's very possible you see signs I don't. Do you see signs of him emerging from the tunnel and moving towards reconciliation?

Do you see him reaching out to the kids more? OR taking initiative and getting things done to fix his life?

Back to YOU....Are you really moving forward in your own life?

It seems to me you are doing a lot of "waiting" for someone else to allow you happiness.

And the irony of it all is that I wonder what he'd be like and what YOU'd be like, if he did come home tomorrow.

Have you really given that any thought?

Have you focussed on your loss so much that you are not able to see objectively what has happened between you and him and the family? (We all do that, at first. THEN we begin to see that not all is well with the WAS and that there are things we are NOT in love with in them...and that maybe the "loss" also has a "gain" side to it.

You have not addressed that and I think you may want to soon.

How will he come back from this, with YOU, the kids, and or with HIMSELF

if he cannot bring himself to act in ANY direction?

He is either manipulating, or he is paralyzed.

But the ONLY thing YOU can do is control YOU. (Accept that, please).

You cannot fix him or make him act or feel or do.

Sure he's in crisis, and part of it might be MLC, part of it might be severe depression and some other mental illness

and or just selfishness ruling out in his life...or a pattern of deceit cumulatively exploding now...

IDK...

But from where I sit, does it really matter who like another mLC it is? I don't buy into the labels much anyhow, b/c there is NO evidence that MLCers come home more than others... YOU are who matters to me, and the kids obviously.

So-

IF you think you can do the waiting game forever, (or some amount to time) and not get hurt financially (and protect the kids )

then the only question you have left is,

are you helping things, by doing nothing?


That's all I'm saying, if you have asked the other questions and addressed those issues (money for the kids and their own sense of self esteem and not getting set up for dashed hopes)....then is it going to help or not?

How has it worked so far?

Last but NOT least...

Was there a pattern in the marriage in which you allowed or saw things that were NOT OKAY

but did nothing about them? IF so...where did that get you?

[beatrice]

You are getting fabulous advice from 25years.

MLc takes a lot of forms, and some of his behaviour is typical. I also think that some is not, but that is arguable.

What is less typical is that the majority of people here set, or are in the process of setting, firm boundaries, and displaying a realism about their situation. They might be waiting it out - and that is a personal decision, but they are not deluding themselves about what is going on. Which with all due respect, I think you are. For you MLC seems to be a licence for your h to treat you badly and for you to accept it.


it isn't a licence to behave badly it is a plausible explanation of why they might be doing this stuff,, and knowing the explanation, some decide to wait it out. Boundaries are essential for you. For the other parts of your life too. Please re and re-read 25years' posts, rather than arguing with them.

Apologies for the 2 x 4. but you are just not getting this imho. And you really need to for your sake.

[lifejustgothard2]

Okay, thank you for the replies. I apologize if it seems I am arguing with you. I honestly am not-just trying to see clearly. Yes, I am worried I am deluding my self that is why I wanted clarification from you.

Yes, after him telling me he didn't want D I told him that I have to continue to move forward with D unless he makes some movement toward R. He hasn't now so since I said I need to move forward right? Follow through?! Even though I don't want D and he "claims" he doesn't want D.

I do believe H is an alcoholic. We have spoke a little about that. But, right now I haven't brought up much of that because he shuts down. I thought the time will come when it needs to be addressed. Just hasn't yet. He does know I do not want a H who was/is doing what he was/is doing and he knows I think he needs help. He actually said to me a few weeks ago that maybe he should check himself into rehab. I agreed.

I have been in a slump for the last month. I believe I let his words hold me hostage. He tells me he wants to come home. I miss everyone,etc. But, yes, does nothing. I am holding on to hope based on his words and with how unhappy he is living the way he is. Just being honest.

Honestly, I feel if I move forward( I have already filed) I am giving up. Like I couldn't "hold out longer than the MLCer".
I am afraid I will kick myself later and wonder why I couldn't have been more patient. Not saying this is right-just my feelings.

When he started messing with the finances(not paying bills etc) I did file to protect us.

I have no idea of what he would be like if he came back. I believe it would be a new M. Starting over and rebuilding.
There are certainly things about him I do not like. Never did but not enough of a reason to D. I asked a few times to go to counseling. HE wouldn't. He didn't need it. I was the one with the problem(he said). So, I went. I changed what I could. HE did not. I often think I am the one who should have left-not him.

I haven't had to enforce or been able to any boundaries because we rarely see him. If/when I do- if he starts to talk to me in a way I find unacceptable I tell him and walk away. Otherwise, what other boundaries can I put up when you never see them?

My kids are my first priority. I am keeping them busy and showing them love and trying to handle this with as much grace as I can. I hope they see that.

I know I cannot fix him. Sometimes, I still revert back to that thinking but honestly - I know.

Part of my goal with waiting some is to get that marital debt paid off. He makes a lot more than me and I don't want to be stuck with half if/when we D. That has been my goal right now. I have one bill left. I am happy about that.

Yes, I do not understand the "buying time" game he plays. But, we never will. I think he truly is a sick man.

So, if I am to move forward with D- I will get that last bill paid then call my L and tell her to move forward. Or,
I get that last bill paid off and live my life and detach. Detach being the key word.
I would like to have some kind of time line but i also feel if I do that I am putting a time line on God.

Input?

[25yearsmlc]

Okay, thank you for the replies----

Yes, after him telling me he didn't want D I told him that I have to continue to move forward with D unless he makes some movement toward R. He hasn't now so since I said I need to move forward right? Follow through?! Even though I don't want D and he "claims" he doesn't want D.

well it's not an "irrevocable signed contract" you have with him. You can file for the purpose of following through (though why you said it in first place puzzles me. Wasn't it enough that you had filed? Just curious.)

Or you can also just TAKE your time doing the finalization. I'd be very careful about the legal implications of doing nothing.

Sometimes that means you have to refile the whole thing later on if you want a divorce AND OR to keep the court support orders in effect.

Sometimes the court orders are temporary, "pending the divorce" and expire. CHECK with your L so you know you and the kids are protected.



I do believe H is an alcoholic. We have spoke a little about that. But, right now I haven't brought up much of that because he shuts down. I thought the time will come when it needs to be addressed. Just hasn't yet.


So his alcoholism did not come up while you were living together and has not come up since then? Or when it does, he shuts down?

What does this tell you, if anything? When do YOU believe it would mandatorily have to be addressed, if ever?


He does know I do not want a H who was/is doing what he was/is doing and he knows I think he needs help. He actually said to me a few weeks ago that maybe he should check himself into rehab. I agreed.

I have been in a slump for the last month. I believe I let his words hold me hostage.

No offense, but this^^ is obvious. Have you worked on this with your t? It seems like a dimension of denial on your end. You "want" to believe so you DO, even when you cognitively know better. And even the evidence suggests nothing he says is going to lead to action or change.

He tells me he wants to come home. I miss everyone,etc. But, yes, does nothing. I am holding on to hope based on his words and with how unhappy he is living the way he is. Just being honest.

More hostage taking, and I got that, at first. Can't say I do now.


Honestly, I feel if I move forward( I have already filed) I am giving up. Like I couldn't "hold out longer than the MLCer".

Wow, Life...
At first I suggested you wait things out, remember? He sounded really confused and sick. But that was months & months ago with ZERO action or movement on his end -no contacting the kids AND yet a lot of spending on OW.......so now, I'm wondering again,

what, exactly, he would have to do to get you to feel like the mistreatment was bad enough for you to say "I will not put up with THIS, too..."

Hey I'm NOT Telling you to file - but at least see other ways of looking at it...

what about
" b/c I love my children and myself enough, I will be true to my values and end this insanity" OR

"I refuse to call this "R", a marriage, when it isn't. No more denial."

OR
the reality is, Your h broke the vows in more than one way. So If you filed for divorce tonight, it would not be YOU who ended the m.

Just you who admitted it had ended.

Whatever it is, it has to be authentic for YOU so don't let us or anyone else, including HIS WORDS, make your choice for you. YOU Choose.



I am afraid I will kick myself later and wonder why I couldn't have been more patient. Not saying this is right-just my feelings.

I guess we all have those fears. In my case my h told me outright he'd "just win me back" later on if he had to. And I think he would have tried to.
But in theory then, you could say this til you're 89 y/o and he could be with OW til HE or she dies? Or you die? And then...well,
all I can say is life is short. Don't forget that.


When he started messing with the finances(not paying bills etc) I did file to protect us.

So, are you protected enough now in a permanent way, to support yourself and the kids in the home with the court ordered money from him? What if he again stopped paying bills?


I have no idea of what he would be like if he came back. I believe it would be a new M. Starting over and rebuilding.


well If it weren't a new m, w/different dynamics and united or complementary problem solving approaches, it would either quickly end for good, or you'd all recognize quickly what a bad idea the "reconciling" was and revert to the earlier patterns. Seems It's more a restoration you want, not just a reconciliation...

But you would need to make SOME CONCRETE PLANS for a recon/restoration, IF he ever does make a move.

You can't just have him come home and THEN say, "now what?"

That's just a set up for failure. He'd need to know the conditions were manageable, but not negotiable. NO contact with OW, attending AA meetings and seeing a shrink or T.

Probably meds for awhile when detoxing...which is why rehab is a good idea. (sorry to sound like an expert, just experienced).

But many recovering alcoholics find it too hard to get sober AND then also face the damage. They bolt, even though they are sober and the family then says, "geez, we put up with all the crap and now he's all 'better' and THIS is our reward??"

Since He's already hiding from the damage he's causing, he'll need some serious help and I hope, FAITH to sustain him. A whole lot of this is spiritual.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Meanwhile, YOU can read up on Co-dependency b/c that's YOUR end of things.

It is not something you have discussed here and it seems to be a pattern for you now.
But it's something you can and ought to work on anyhow. That's in YOUR sandbox, if you know what I mean.


There are certainly things about him I do not like. Never did but not enough of a reason to D. I asked a few times to go to counseling. HE wouldn't. He didn't need it. I was the one with the problem(he said).


see, this ^^^ is not him drinking. THIS is not MLC. This is NOT OW or a bandaid. It's him not being accountable as a lifestyle choice. A behavioral pattern of his, a trait?

So, I went. I changed what I could. HE did not. I often think I am the one who should have left-not him.

I get that. But now, with some space for reflection you can see that Not all was wonderful BEFORE all this exploding into the crisis.

Maybe he was being a jerk and fighting it internally, and finally gave in to all his crappy urges? Maybe the jerky "devil" side to him finally won out? I DON'T KNOW THAT...I'm just Wondering...

What we seem to know is that your loss is more of what you hoped for, not what actually was lost. Do you see that?

This is very common. Then when those couples reconcile without a lot of change and work, they find that the old problems still there
AND

they regret putting themselves through the whole LBSer crap and how they slogged through things, just to have the idiot come back and be the same fool he was before? OR worse?

And what about all the "amnesia"?

will the kids be allowed to bring anything up, like THEIR pain? THEIR questions? Or will your h break apart again, and flee?

So is it really fair to your kids to have him visit or return, only to engage in more denial and pretense

and deny them the right to their feelings or needs or anger about how long they've had Unmet needs they are not allowed to discuss?

YOU have had to handle all that now...

Seems there is a lot you are avoiding thinking about so you can "be patient" for the h. But time passes. The kids get older. What will their childhood have consisted of? You being stuck, or living a life fully and well, believing that if your m were meant to be, your h would come home? YOU CAN live well and move forward and still hold out hope...maybe. But only if you detach.

I don't know what your thoughts are on dating and I'm NOT telling you to.

But don't let FEAR control you and convince yourself it must be "right".

My mc told me that and it helped. He said, "If you make a decision, don't let the fear of being alone dictate it, b/c it's not realistic."

So Don't believe that if you are not with h, you will have to be all alone (or that alone is all bad).

Do not fall into the trap of thinking that the ONLY alternative to filing for divorce and being alone, is waiting for your h and being alone til if and when he returns and IF AND WHEN he can manage to change enough to stay.

Another option is working on yourself to be healthy enough to move forward and, PLEASE...now, just imagine, for a minute-

just imagine, you healed enough to meet a healthy man to have a R with.

Imagine that he that is loving and sober and fun? What if there were no drama and no guessing games? What would that do for your kids? Or you? What could they learn from that?

Compare that to What they are learning from what "is" going on now.



I haven't had to enforce or been able to any boundaries because we rarely see him. If/when I do- if he starts to talk to me in a way I find unacceptable I tell him and walk away. Otherwise, what other boundaries can I put up when you never see them?

Good question. You control how YOU react to him and what access he has to the kids and home.

Except that whenever he wants to re-enter their lives or yours, or stay away, you'll allow it. So maybe you COULD have boundaries but you are not willing to enforce them. Which means...you don't have them?


My kids are my first priority. I am keeping them busy and showing them love and trying to handle this with as much grace as I can. I hope they see that.

They probably do. REassure them all you can, that YOU love them and YOU are there for them.

I recall telling my youngest that her happiness was THE most important thing to me and that I would make my decision based on what I believed would lead to the most happiness for her (albeit in the long run, so it might not be clear to her right away). Anyhow, that seemed to comfort her.

I know I cannot fix him. Sometimes, I still revert back to that thinking but honestly - I know.

Part of my goal with waiting some is to get that marital debt paid off. He makes a lot more than me and I don't want to be stuck with half if/when we D. That has been my goal right now. I have one bill left. I am happy about that.

That makes sense and GOOD for you! Seriously, that will feel like a weight off your shoulders. Trust me, we have had some VERY UNexpected expenses that are eating at us and stressing us and I"m pissed and am not sure who to be mad at, you know?

(SIDENOTE-right after we made a big payment towards a retirement annuity UNnecessarily paying in advance, then we learned that We missed a quarterly payment to the IRS in 2009. Never knew it til 2 months ago. Refused to believe it and sort of still do. Definitely not something we'd miss.../i]. But now, I can see that it's when mil was here with us and she had brain cancer/lung cancer and it was VERY labor intensive for me to care for her. Like 24/7.

So MAYBE we did drop the ball? Now the penalties and interest are gouging us and there's no "appeal" for hardship, or a"hey give us a break, please. We took pay cuts to care for her AND now we're being penalized???"

So yeah, money problems can stink so much. And like I said, who do I get mad at? MIL? H? Me? I prefer just hating the IRS ...so that's my plan for now.

But I digress...

Just curious, and NOT saying this is a [i]deal maker or breaker, but if he makes that much more money, would the amount be the same or more if divorced? Did you ask?

Oh, and if he married OW, HER income would count "in addition" to his so he'd have to pay you more, b/c "They make more together". Sometimes the court counts her income without them marrying b/c they are "cohabitating"

and that means there are 2 incomes at his home, only one income at your home, but with children at your home. Make sense?

At least in most states that's the case, so there probably are financial advantages to him staying legally married to you.

Not saying that's all there is, but there IS that.


Yes, I do not understand the "buying time" game he plays. But, we never will. I think he truly is a sick man.

Probably...but also, he may be aware of the above reality too...like he's better off not being legally divorced.

So, if I am to move forward with D- I will get that last bill paid then call my L and tell her to move forward. Or,
I get that last bill paid off and live my life and detach. Detach being the key word.


Detachment...Yes and that's ALL up to you!


I would like to have some kind of time line but i also feel if I do that I am putting a time line on God.

Input?

I don't get how is it a timeline on God? Aren't you just saying to yourself, "God, I'll do this as long as I can, AND as long as it's HEALTHY"

&imo, he's fine with that, right??

I mean, This is not a martyr contest of who can wear the hair shirt the longest.

Why aren't you allowed to at least know that at some point you will be allowed to move forward in your life

AND that your children deserve to not be in limbo forever?

If your h hits you, are you going to stick it out b/c you want to "outlast his violence"?

Would God be mad at you for that? Or is it possible you want an excuse for staying stuck?

I will say one thing for sure, the BIGGEST excuse I see around here for standing still, and calling it "Standing for marriage"

is religion. A misuse of religion, to be sure.

I am a Christian and my faith got stronger and got me through this terrible experience.

But I have seen a few people here, claiming to be "standing". They quote scripture and all they are doing is living in the past or a pretend future. Their real life is as abandoned LBSers who have not let go or adapted. I know a girl who is still lending her eX h the last of her money for "investing". He left her 4 years ago and remarried OW...she prays and reads the bible and says God will reward her for being patient and meek.
She is nearly bankrupt and it's just, imo, sick. God forgive me for saying that if I'm wrong but she sounds nutty. (When I first heard her story I assumed her h had left her a week or so earlier, and that he was having a fling. NOT married to OW for years AND bankrupting her...)

I also believe God wants me/us to be happy and STRONG in our faith in Him, and not waste our short lives teaching our kids that religion means shutting up and putting up

and never even searching for our bliss, never insisting on loving treatment or ever getting it. Never having them see us get it...


You have some tough brave soul searching to do.

Are you in shape physically? Do you feel good about your appearance these days? Do you like your job?

Do you have a social life? ARE YOU GAL? Meeting any new people?

If those things start to fall into place, the answer will likely manifest.

Either you'll be fine with detaching and moving on and waiting another year or so (not 5 or 9 years) b/c you'll be happy enough in your life,

to see if your h comes out of his tunnel AND comes back to you AND wants to do all the work needed, etc....

OR
You will feel ready to move on and that's a sign! You may want to say
"EFf this, I want to LIVE! I deserve to LIVE WELL! I don't have to WAIT more years for happiness or companionship. No more waiting for an AWOL H and father when I can have a good partner here now, helping me raise my kids!"


Who knows what happiness God would have right around the corner from you then?

Life, I am only trying to paint another picture for you to imagine-

b/c if the only thing "guiding" you is fear, then you are not operating in faith.

((( )))

[lifejustgothard2]

Bad day today. Terrible really. I'm sure I broke evry DB rule ever written when communicating with my H. I beat myself up so much after u think I would learn. 25-you are right about it all. I now feel paralyzed not by fear but not sure by what. I think I need a break from it all. I really feel worthless. I know H has contributed to it big time. I hate how I get sucked in to his mentality. Am I that insecure?! Didn't think so. I will answer those questions you asked maybe tomorrow. But has a long day with H and really my head is spinning.

[lifejustgothard2]

25-There are no court orders for anything. Once he got the papers he started putting money in without me asking.
It has come up and he shuts ME down. He says he doesn't have a problem with alcohol. COuld it be he was using it just to cope?
I am working on my own internal timeline.
So, a few days ago we talked about what "coming home" would look like. He admitted to his deceit. His selfishness and the drinking to much and obviously the OW. No excuses but admitted them. Says he does not use me for blame for any of his actions. That he would need to put me first this time not the other way around. He said he will NOT go to counseling. Well, maybe if I really felt I needed him there. No rehab/ AA. Of course, NO OW.

He doesn't want to hear about my pain. If and when I bring it up he says" yup, here we go again you just can't let it go"! My reply-no cause it is still a problem. YOu are still living with her!! THIS is where I feel like I am not DBing well. Is it him being manipulative or is it really like dbing says to not bring up the past or issues until the right time?! He claims this is why he can't call or see me cause I will bring it up and never let it go?! He hasn't given me a chance-IMO! Maybe I am wrong. But, if we are talking about coming home this crap has got to be addressed! Right!? THen he says for the rest of his life I will always have this on him. I can't help that!! HE did it!
I don't want to hold it over his head and hes claiming I am now. I didn't think I was just trying to talk it out like 2 adults. Am I wrong here? I do have a problem with holding grudges but am working on that. He takes this as evidence that nothing has changed. INPUT please! Am I out of line. Is he right?! I don't plan to hold it over his head but it has to change first in order to give me a chance!!
I don't understand the question about how much money he makes? How could it be more if we D?
I am guessing her income isn't going to help much. SHe makes a living off of tips if you know what I mean.
I am GAL. I look the best I have in years. H can't get over it! Love my job. Like the people. I do have an active social life. Only thing I haven't done is met a lot of new people. I can work on that.
I do have soul searching to do. I will do that.
I feel so manipulated but don't trust myself and reasoning after all these years of living with that.

[25yearsmlc]

life, this is a repeat of past behavior you are somehow not seeing...

25-There are no court orders for anything. Once he got the papers he started putting money in without me asking.
It has come up and he shuts ME down. He says he doesn't have a problem with alcohol. COuld it be he was using it just to cope?

seriously? First, so all the people at his work are idiots or liars...and second, how is this better? I mean, you are saying a sober h left his wife and kids for OW and still cries and pretends misery...and that is better?


I am working on my own internal timeline.
So, a few days ago we talked about what "coming home" would look like.


Why? At first I thought he'd left OW and was coming home, but no...so I wonder at the new stalling tactic. Guess it's working...

He admitted to his deceit. His selfishness and the drinking to much and obviously the OW. No excuses but admitted them. Says he does not use me for blame for any of his actions. That he would need to put me first this time not the other way around.


what a great line...except what does it mean, specifically?

ALL the other conditions you would want, he has already refused...so what does HE mean when he says he'd put you first if he also won't do a damn thing you want or need him to do?


He said he will NOT go to counseling. Well, maybe if I really felt I needed him there. No rehab/ AA. Of course, NO OW.
He doesn't want to hear about my pain.

so except for NOT having an affair in front of you, what's he willing to do? Doesn't even want to listen to the pain he is CAUSING YOU NOW....geez, are you super motivated to wait for him to emerge from the tunnel? I think this IS HIM....emerging and not sounding super fun or attractive OR realistic...

are you thinking this is someone you could reconcile with and be happy with, given the above conditions?

Or are you secretly hoping that of course LATER ON he will do what you want and later on he will change?

Are you thinking that way? I fear it....


If and when I bring it up he says" yup, here we go again you just can't let it go"! My reply-no cause it is still a problem. YOu are still living with her!! THIS is where I feel like I am not DBing well. Is it him being manipulative or is it really like dbing says to not bring up the past or issues until the right time?

this is NOT a past issue. He's with her now.

In DB land, my feeling is, What is there to discuss other than the kids, at this point?

nothing has changed!!

Til that does, IF it does, why not simply be pleasant and upbeat but moving forward in your life, in whatever way shows that you are not interested in discussing his "conditions" of return as long as he's with OW and drinking.

Honestly, I don't get why HE is still calling all the shots.

Take your power back.

Take your life back.





! He claims this is why he can't call or see me cause I will bring it up and never let it go?! He hasn't given me a chance-IMO! Maybe I am wrong. But, if we are talking about coming home this crap has got to be addressed! Right!? THen he says for the rest of his life I will always have this on him. I can't help that!! HE did it!

This is why I'd put a STOP to all discussions of his return at this point. Don't even put the conditions on b/c they are OBVIOUS...
literally "needless to say" types of things like "no ow"...

and as far as you holding his affair and marital desertion over his head, if that happens in the future, he can feel free THEN to bring it up.


Til he even apologizes or makes amends, why would you risk having this happen again?

Isn't he basically telling you, IN EFFECT he's not going to do ANY of the things you want and he will do exactly what he feels like doing... and

IF he feels like it, he can leave again, as long as he SAYS nice things? To me that is the effect of what is being said now.

oh wait...tut tut, Of course if he came home he'd be "putting you first"...whatever the hell that means...which is, imo, not a damn thing.

Right now the affair is a presently occuring event and pretending it's not happening - is just weird.

It's Sort of delusional...drunk? I think he's got you figured out so YOU are the wrong person here....insanity.

I don't want to hold it over his head and hes claiming I am now. I didn't think I was just trying to talk it out like 2 adults. Am I wrong here?


You're human. But bringing it up now IS NOT WORKING. It makes it seem as if you are harping. And really Why do it at all? I mean it.

I would not discuss ANYTHING but the kids and business matters, then wrap it up and as pleasantly as you can, go back to your new life.

He knows where you are and how to catch up. The more pleasant you are, the less ammo he has to say you are bitter and holding a grudge.

But It's a fruitless discussion. The man has abandoned you and the kids to live with OW and HE gets to whine about you holding a grudge b/c you brought it up. Then again Life


what's to bring up? He has made his choice and that ACTION says it all. Face it.

I would act as if he has made a choice and is making a choice, every day, to be w/OW and not with his family..... b/c HE HAS AND HE IS!...

I would do my best to cope with THAT REALITY. Period. This is NOT complicated Life...it really isn't.

Sorry but he's actually pretty clear to me. Good at manipulating and stalling but a coward and a weakling.

I could go on but I want you to be stronger...and so I don't know what else to say.


I do have a problem with holding grudges but am working on that. He takes this as evidence that nothing has changed.


what has changed? Um, him living with OW and leaving his family seems like a new thing....

OH he's talking about YOUR changes, not his! How silly of me. Of course YOU are the one on trial here...not him. Why should he do ANY thing new or different when YOU are the one who has wronged him...

wait, I'm sorry, I was confusing you with a woman who had left her h and kids for OM and didn't make contact for weeks and weeks...but that is HIM...


INPUT please! Am I out of line. Is he right?!

I think he has set it up so you will lose either way.

By putting conditions on his return that no woman in her right mind would accept he puts all the blame of the divorce

or marriage ending ON YOU while telling you that he's not doing that.


It reminds me of the film "Gaslight" where the h is trying to make the w insane.


I don't plan to hold it over his head but it has to change first in order to give me a chance!!


needless to say....Stop THESE R talks. They are nonsense at this point. Like a year ahead of time, at best....

I don't understand the question about how much money he makes? How could it be more if we D?aI am guessing her income isn't going to help much. SHe makes a living off of tips if you know what I mean.

You can get more in a divorce than temporary support pays, in most states. Plus he must continue it, by court order.


I am GAL. I look the best I have in years. H can't get over it! Love my job. Like the people. I do have an active social life. Only thing I haven't done is met a lot of new people. I can work on that.


that is great and meeting new people who don't all know the sitch is excellent. So refreshing to get a new start with new friends.

Well done.


I do have soul searching to do. I will do that.
I feel so manipulated but don't trust myself and reasoning after all these years of living with that.

I get that...But don't let him gaslight you....