hi everyone! newbie here....could this be a MLC?

[mncwng]

quick bump?

[BeingMe]

Many say the "I don't love you as a husband (or wife) should." Or, the "you never loved me." Note the "never". Just like a teen, with the extreme language. Why would any sane person get married just to have children? There is little point in trying to argue with them. They won't hear you. They have justified and decided in their heads what their "reality" is. Arguing will just solidify their argument that you don't love them, you just want to control them, or fight with them.

Best to just work on yourself, and "I'm sorry you feel that way" is the perfect reply to idiotic statements.

Good luck.

[Accuray]

From the other thread where you found me:

Accuray, could you elaborate a little bit more about this? This sounds like it could apply a bit to my situation as well. Suppose that the following (quoted portion)is true, what should or can the LBS do to fix this while still following the DB principles?

im having so much trouble with DBing/detaching/ and also 180s since some of the principles seem to contradict at times. i'm trying to detach but at the same time trying to implement changes in response to complaints H has had about me.

when you get a chance, could you also take a quick look at my thread as well? thanks so much!!

The simple explanation would be that he decided to give up instead of facing continued rejection, and is "convincing himself" that he doesn't have feelings for you anymore to free him from not feeling good enough.

What do you think about that? Do you think H "gave up" because he felt his best effort wasn't good enough, that he put himself out there and his level of intimacy wasn't reciprocated?

A few things to be aware of. I read a great book called "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It". In that book, it talks about just how important it is for a man to feel like a good provider. It's an evolutionary, animalistic sort of need. If he feels like he's not being a good provider, because you complain about what he's bringing to the table, then he's going to feel badly about himself. That feeling inadequate will really do a job on him over time and he'll seek to escape that feeling however he can, thrill seeking, etc. It leads to a feeling of being trapped, and he may have needed to escape.

He may fear, now, that he will always feel inadequate with you, and that's what he's running from.
Accuray

From what I've read of your stich I don't think this applies to you, but tell me why you think it does? Maybe that's more important.

From your description, it looks like your situation is better characterized by "pursuer / distancer" or "one up / one down".

This tends to be a longer term relationship dynamic where one partner (the one-down) is insecure in the relationship / pursuing the other and always feels that the other one doesn't really love them.

The pursued partner (the one-up) feels guilty and responsible. They feel the one-down nitpicks them and is always complaining or looking for more, and they're not motivated to give it.

This is a dynamic that, once it sets in, is very hard to shake and tends to create a long term problem in a relationship. The more the one-down pursues, the more the one-up tries to distance, and that leads the one-down to pursue more and neither party can relax.

The example I read in the book is that the one-up will work long hours or do what they can to avoid coming home. The one-down will complain that the one-up didn't call, doesn't care about them, loves work more than they love them, etc. The one-up doesn't enjoy that and will feel persecuted, so they'll stay away even more to avoid the confrontation.

This is often triggered when one person feels they want the other person more than the other person wants them. They try to compensate for that by proving how much they love the other person, and when the other person doesn't reciprocate, they both get frustrated and try harder. It's exhausting for both parties.

If this makes sense to you, I can share some of the things you can do about it, but I don't want to go into all that if this does not characterize your situation, and only you know that.

What should or can the LBS do to fix this while still following the DB principles

A few VERY important points here. What might have worked to fix the relationship BEFORE the bomb dropped will not work now -- while it can be useful to understand the dynamics that lead you here, it's not realistic to address and reverse them now. Your best bet is to follow the DB principles *for now*.

im having so much trouble with DBing/detaching/ and also 180s since some of the principles seem to contradict at times.

Tell me about the contradictions you see and I'll help you with that. The principles should not contradict.

i'm trying to detach but at the same time trying to implement changes in response to complaints H has had about me.

Detach and give space is the most important. On a 10 point scale, that's an 8, and implementing changes in response to H's complaints is a 3.

Why? As humans we like simple cause and effect relationships. If I press the lever, I get a pellet. If H says I don't compliment him enough, then if I start complimenting him he will come back. But then you compliment him and it just makes him angrier or more distant.

Before someone is willing to blow up a relationship, they have to be "way gone". This isn't a casual complaint. By the time they get here, they've gone through a lot of pain, anger, and resentment themselves. That can't be undone now. To them, it will feel like too little too late, and make them even angrier that you didn't do before what seems to be so easy for you now.

It's important for them to see that you've changed, but not that you've changed just so you can have them back.

(I'd like to copy and paste that sentence for you 4 times, but do me a favor and just read it again)

One one of your posts above, you said that you had an R talk with H and pointed out all your changes for him. That's a major no-no, try your very best not to do that again. Telling H anything does nothing for you and usually hurts your case. You need to show him, not tell him, and you need to be consistent.

You have trained H how to think about you and how you will respond. That "training" creates neural pathways in his brain. If you want him to change his perception of you, those pathways need to be broken down and remapped, and that doesn't happen with convincing, it happens with retraining, which is observing consistent behavior over a long period of time.

Therefore, if you're going to make changes, make them for yourself, not for H. Do it because you really believe it will make you a better person and because you want to do it. If H notices great, but if he doesn't that has to be OK too. If H believes you're putting on a show for him, that will be entirely non-believable to him.

You've asked many times if it gets worse before it gets better. The answer is usually yes. Here's why -- people don't like change. You don't like change, and neither does H. If you start acting differently, H won't like it just because it's different. It's confusing and will throw him off base. When you see that, you'll be tempted to conclude that your changes are making things worse, and you'll revert to your prior behavior. The problem is that if you'd given the changes time to be the new "norm", things would have been better than they were before. That's how we get stuck in patterns in relationships, we back off of our changes too early just because of the discomfort of change. You need to go through the dark tunnel first to come out on the other side. This requires faith and strength, and that's why it's so hard.

It's also important to understand what you're going through right now. You are in panic and shock. That leads to manic behavior. You're looking for solutions too quickly and trying too many things at once. I read some interesting research that said that feelings of "love" are directly linked to feelings of being "out of control". When you're dating, you don't know what's going to happen next. You don't know if the other person will call you back, kiss you, or never see you again. It's that "out of control" dynamic that makes you feel in love.

When your spouse rejects you or walks away, you again feel out of control. This makes you feel like you love the other person more than you should. That is a chemical reaction in your brain that you are helpless against, but it doesn't make any logical sense. Why would you feel MORE love for someone who's treating you this way? It's because (1) they've pushed you away and the fact that you can't have them makes you want them more and (2) they've taken away your control of the situation which makes you feel in love. Spend some time thinking about that. In some cases after reconciliation, the LBS wonders why they wanted this person back after the in-control feelings have been restored. This chemical reaction will slowly taper off, and that's why time will help you feel better. Time is your ally, not your enemy.

Right now, H does not want to be responsible for you. If you make him responsible for your feelings or your sadness, he will resent you for it. Everything you say or do needs to be measured against the yardstick of whether it will generate resentment. Be approachable, be friendly, but do NOT discuss your relationship or your feelings, and do not "mope around" and provide visual displays for H of how upset you are. It's time to be an Oscar-winning actress.

What you want to do right now is make H feel out of control. He is vulnerable to the same dynamic. How do you do that? Whatever you used to do, do the opposite. Read the chapter about 180's. Be unpredictable. Appear to be having fun despite the fact that H will expect that you feel badly. Read about "act as if". Finally, read about GAL -- go out and do things that make you attractive and fun to be around. You need to be a "prize to be won". Once you feel that way about yourself, H will too.

Let me know what you think about all this and if there's anything else I can do to help with regard to pursuer / distancer.

Accuray

[labug]

If you never read another post on here after this one you would be fine. Read this everyday.

Really.

Great post, 'ray.

[Accuray]

Thanks Labug,

If you agree with the fact that feeling "out of control" is driving some of the manic behavior, then it also important to understand that doing things that make you feel "in control" will make you feel better. In choosing a GAL, find something where you can measure progress. That could be getting in shape, losing weight, learning a new instrument, something where you can measure how you're doing. When you see progress, it will help you feel in control of your situation, and that will counterbalance the "out of control" you feel from your relationship. Try it, but give it time to work!

Accuray

[mncwng]

WOW, thanks so much accuray. i really appreciate you taking the time and providing your insights. I definitely plan on taking LAbug's suggestion on reading this post each day to make sure the message stays with me. i'll reply to your questions in a bit...want to make sure i don't miss anything.

thanks again!!!

[ptcr]

Accuray, I would love pursuer/distanced advice. Fits my situation perfectly.

Good luck mncwng...in same spot as you.

[mncwng]

Hi again Accuray, ill try to answer your questions in order:

1) regarding h feeling "inadequate" and not "good enough," he's said that for the past few months, i'd made him feel like he wasn't a good husband. when he did the 180 on the having kids thing, i had said some hurtful things, including that i wasn't sure if i'd have married H if he had made it clear he didnt want kids before we got married. Plus, I’d been kinda guilty of nagging h about being more romantic and helping out more around the house. As a result, h hadn’t felt that his contributions were appreciated. Part of h’s spew was that he felt as though I never appreciated him, and that’s kinda what got me thinking that part of h’s fear was that he’ll always feel as though I wouldn’t be happy with him. Especially since he knows that having kids is impt to me, and hes not sure if he’d be able to deliver in that respect, and hes afraid that 5-10 years down the line, I’d resent him.
2) The pursuer/ distance dynamic seems pretty right on too. I guess its not too hard to figure out who is one up & who is one down in my sitch. Throughout our r, I’d always been the one to initiate affection and the ILY’s, but never associated that to me being more invested in the R. I’d always just thought that maybe h’s need for affection was just less than mine. But definitely, during the past few months when things have been pretty rocky, I’d say this whole thing has been pretty accurate in terms of summing up our dynamic:

This tends to be a longer term relationship dynamic where one partner (the one-down) is insecure in the relationship / pursuing the other and always feels that the other one doesn't really love them.

The pursued partner (the one-up) feels guilty and responsible. They feel the one-down nitpicks them and is always complaining or looking for more, and they're not motivated to give it.

This is often triggered when one person feels they want the other person more than the other person wants them. They try to compensate for that by proving how much they love the other person, and when the other person doesn't reciprocate, they both get frustrated and try harder. It's exhausting for both parties.

If this makes sense to you, I can share some of the things you can do about it, but I don't want to go into all that if this does not characterize your situation, and only you know tha

t.

^^^^^
Yes, if you could share your thoughts about what i can do to minimize our pursuer/distancer dynamic, i'd so appreciate it!!

i'd kinda been having trouble with detaching and also doing my 180s, since a few of my 180s involved addressing the issues h had with me. for example, ive been going out of my way to show h i appreciate him and also by doing a lot more of the chores & keeping things extra tidy around the house. unless im mistaken, aren't these typically considered pursuing behaviors? as a result of my efforts, things with h seem to be getting a lot friendlier lately (good sign), but the fact that he hasn't budged or slowed down at all with the divorce has me kind of questioning if my approach is correct. one thing i should note is that h has mentioned that down the line, if he realizes that he made a mistake, he will come back. he just needs to see if being alone will provide him the peace/fulfillment he is searching for.

i also loved the point you made about feeling "out of control" and how that may make me and how that may make me feel like i love h more than i should in light of how hes been treating me lately. i think there is a lot of merit to this. if i'm honest, part of why i'm still kinda holding on is that i've invested so much energy and emotions trying to db that if i give up, i'd feel as though all my efforts would be wasted. i do think my h was a wonderful man before all this started, and i'd do anything to get that h back, but if i'm honest with myself, im not sure i'd be happy to be married to who he is "now".

[Accuray]

Mncwng (and ptcrussell),

First the easier stuff:

i'd kinda been having trouble with detaching and also doing my 180s, since a few of my 180s involved addressing the issues h had with me. for example, ive been going out of my way to show h i appreciate him and also by doing a lot more of the chores & keeping things extra tidy around the house. unless im mistaken, aren't these typically considered pursuing behaviors? as a result of my efforts, things with h seem to be getting a lot friendlier lately (good sign), but the fact that he hasn't budged or slowed down at all with the divorce has me kind of questioning if my approach is correct. one thing i should note is that h has mentioned that down the line, if he realizes that he made a mistake, he will come back.

If things are getting better between you, that's good. The challenge is to manage your own expectations for how quickly this can or should turn around. This is a marathon, not a sprint, and your impatience will work against you.

WRT 180's, those are great, but the "give space" right now is more important. Your H is telling you exactly what he needs:

"he just needs to see if being alone will provide him the peace/fulfillment he is searching for."

He's saying it, but you're having a hard time accepting it (which is normal). The best thing you can do right now is to give him the space he is asking for. Concentrate on that first, the 180's second.

Here's what's tricky about the 180's -- if you're doing it "for them", then they can't believe you'll continue doing it if they come back. If you're a messy person, but start cleaning up and being tidy now, H is convinced that if he comes back, you'll be messy again. If you commit to a life change to eliminate the clutter, and start living that way when no one is watching, and are able to maintain it over several months, that's when the 180 becomes believable. That's why it's important to do it for yourself, because YOU believe it's a change worth making. It's a lifelong commitment, not just a tactic to get H back. He'll see through that just like anyone else would.

The difference between a "pursuing 180" and a real 180, is that you're going to do it even when no one is looking, even if H leaves and never comes back, you're still going to do it because you think it's worth doing. That doesn't mean you have to respond to all his complaints, nor should you. Remember to believe nothing they say and only half of what they do. You have to look at the longer term issues in your relationship and address those, not H's "exit complaints" which may or may not be real or meaningful.

Now the deeper stuff on shaming and pursuit and distance

First my reading list for you:

1) "The Five Love Languages" -- read it right away, understand yours and understand his. Don't discuss it with him now, just read it and arm yourself with the knowledge.

2) "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It" -- this talks about nagging, shaming and the importance of being a good provider. Once again, don't discuss it, but arm yourself with the knowledge.

3) "The Passion Trap" -- This book talks about the one-up, one-down dynamic. It's important to understand. The prescriptions are for people who are struggling in their relationship -- once the bomb has dropped the prescriptions won't work.

4) "The Solo Partner" -- This book is out of print, so you have to order it from a used book seller. If you Google "The Solo Partner Book Review", the chapter on "Pursuit and Distance" has been posted online, start by reading that, but the whole book is good.

Pursuer:

Here's what happens with the pursuer -- you want a certain level of intimacy and affection in your marriage. Your partner doesn't deliver it, so you're always initiating, always trying to get things going. Sometimes your partner will reciprocate, sometimes they won't, but it's never to the level you want. You try to demonstrate or model the behavior you want by doing the things for your partner that you want for yourself, but they never (or rarely) come. If you want to hear "I love you" every day, then you're always the one to say it first, etc.

When you're partner doesn't reciprocate, or doesn't seem to learn, you both get frustrated and start to complain, nag, get passive aggressive, etc. AND you will work even harder on initiating, demonstrating, etc. It's hard to understand what's going on in your partner's head, it just looks like not caring, or not being invested.

Distancer:

For the distancer, they feel they are being smothered. The pursuer is setting a high bar with their demonstrations and initiations, and it looks like it will be exhausting to match or try to out-do what the pursuer is bringing. It feels like the pursuer always will want "more, more, more", so they try to manage expectations by delivering the minimum allowable.

In addition, people like to pursue. You know the expression "nothing that's free is worth having?" People like to work for what they value. The distancer doesn't have to work for the pursuer, they're being pursued, and that isn't that interesting or exciting. When you were dating they were pursuing you, and felt a certain way about you, but once they had you, that feeling diminished because they no longer had to chase, or were given the opportunity to do so.

As the pursuer, you need to learn to back off, and you need to learn that it's OK to back off. Backing off for the pursuer is very nerve wracking, because you're convinced that if you don't keep this stuff going it's not going to happen at all.

The fact is, if you give the distancer enough room, they will step up. You will get the "I love you", you just need to wait for it. The next challenge is that as soon as the pursuer gets a little pursuit, they think everything is solved and come running back in with their pursuit, effectively chasing the distancer off again.

When you (the pursuer) do things for the distancer, and they're not doing anything for you, they feel badly. The pursuit that's designed to make them feel good actually makes them feel inadequate by comparison.

When the pursuer starts to back off, it makes things worse. Here's a quote from the book:

"When we face important life changes we must usually go through periods in which we feel worse before we feel better, since we are creatures of habit who instinctively struggle against change. Unfortunately, this is as true for those actively making changes as for those around them, and there is no way to bypass this obstacle...when one partner begins to make constructive changes, the two will usually get along worse for a while before things get better. When this occurs, people frequently conclude that the changes are creating problems rather than solving them, and so the actively changing partner ceases the endeavor in the interest of avoiding discomfort."

There are also two excellent chapters on pursuit and distance, how how to stop pursuing.

"If your partner is a master of elusiveness and will not discuss or deal with issues under any circumstance, or if your partner avoids closeness and intimacy in spite of all your efforts, your relationship might be one of pursuit and distance. This dynamic overshadows everything else that occurs in a relationship."

It says if you can stop pursuing, you'll have to deal with the distancer's response:

"Under the calm, unemotional, unexpressive, and seemingly distant and uncaring exterior of a distancer is a desperate person. And this desparation is also generated by self-deception -- the expectation that the distancer can get more out of a relationship than he puts into it.

The distancer is about to face the cost of that deception, which has been avoided for so long. But first the distancer will mount a no-holds-barred campaign to get the pursuer to pursue again. The stakes are high. If successful, the distancer will not have to change, and can continue to be the focus of the pursuer's attention.

If unsuccessful, the distancer, in the absence of pursuit, will no longer be able to focus on running away from the pursuer, so will begin to experience a deep emptiness. At this point the self-deception begins to crumble. First, as the pursuer pulls back, the distancer usually feels relief, lasting from a few days to several weeks. This is followed by a sense of missing the disengaged partner. If this longing has not begun within two months, the pursuer has either not stopped pursuing completely or has been inconsistent -- pursuing one day, not pursuing the next day.

It is also possible that there is no real interest left in the relationship. In my experience, the only way to truly determine how much, if any, caring a distancer has for his pursuing partner is for her to stop pursuing. If he cares for her, after the initial reaction against the nonpursuit, he will start pursuing her. If he does not care enough, he will move on to something or someone else. The question of whether or not their partner cares for them haunts pursuers unceasingly. They may dread finding the answer, which will be evident when the pursuer has successfully stopped pursuing and the distancer doesn't pursue her. It is extremely painful for a pursuer to find out, after all that time, that her partner really doesn't love her after all. However, after the initial shock, it can be very liberating to finally know the reality and be able to make decisions based on that knowledge."

It doesn't touch on OM/OW. In my opinion, the presence of OM/OW clouds the issue as the distancer is getting the void filled elsewhere. I would only expect this book to hold true if OM/OW are not present.

The problem I see with MC is that MC will encourage the pursuer to put their cards on the table and expose their pursuing feelings. This allows the distancer to keep getting what they're getting from pursuit, it undermines your efforts at distance and detaching.

Hopefully this helps you understand why detaching and giving space are so very critical. Otherwise you get engaged in a dance where one of you keeps pursuing and the other keeps distancing, it's a self-feeding push-pull that cycles around and around until one of you break it.

Hope that helps

Accuray

[sayitaintso]

Damn Ray- Fantastic Posts above!! Thanks from all of us!!