I understand what you mean, but no, I don't believe this is the best for us.
Its hard to explain, but what Cyrena said is true - my H has a long way to go, and so have I, and actually, I was afraid we were going a bit too fast right after Retrouvaille, but when we lost our momentum, both of us started going back to our old ways.
I do not want to control the situation any longer. Pushing im for a decision will only force things.
Besides, its had to gauge the "inappropriateness" of the contact with OW. First of all she is 6000 miles away and H will only be going to her country 2-3x a year. Even phone calls are hard because of the time difference. When OW was here for a whole year, they only saw each other 5x, and 3 of those were because of conventions. I know that OW kept up contact with H for help in her paper (actually I just saw the paper H helped her write tonight while cleaning up H's desk).
I don't think he is fence sitting, he has told me many, many times that he is staying, and that he cannot leave us. Problem is, he is somewhat still holding on, prolonging the agony. He knows what is right, but he still cannot get himself to feel something for me.
But the vauable thing is I now know what MWD and what many people mean when they say patience, lose the anger, and be a woman only a fool will leave.
And I am working for that.
Me:49 H:45 D:12 M:14 T:18 Bomb: 6/26/10 EA: 9/3/10, fizzled out slowly, now ??? 11/5/11 Retrouvaille Finally piecing.... Its peaceful at last, but we got a looong way to go
I didn't think you would (agree), but I felt compelled to speak my mind. What you're doing is a recipe for "limbo," and he's absolutely fence-sitting. You seem okay with that, and that's fine -- different people move at different speeds. When you're NOT okay with it, then it will be time to try something different.
I personally could never abide continued contact of my wife with another man, and "only" 2-3x/year visits. I value myself more than that.
You cannot "control" the situation -- only what YOU are willing to (or not willing to) put up with. Boundaries.
That's the strength of this site, that different people can post from completely different perspectives, allowing posters to be challenged by opposing views and then make up their own minds.
My H, like yours Angel, had infrequent face-to-face meetings with his OW, in public places, and no physical affair. His obsession with her (whether he was phoning her or just mooning around our house playing a song he'd written for her), was the issue. I do not consider that I valued myself less for having given him time to work through Counseling and the latter stages of his MLC; in fact, I'm extremely proud that I learned to be loving and detached towards him. It helped that I could see he was in huge mental pain, that the OW was NOT making him happy, or even "real" to him--she was just a projection of what he wanted to see.
Also, I believe that neither of these OWs was actually interested in a relationship--they're just looking for someone who can help them with their careers, and for the pleasure of feeling that they control a man's heart without having to care for him in turn.
The first time my H "broke up" with OW, it was because I was pushing him too hard, demanding he respect my boundaries. Of course, after a few months his teenaged mind decided he'd only done it because I forced him to, and he needed to resume contacting her. He hoped, briefly, that he could have us both--but knew I would never allow that, because I'd made it perfectly clear that was not a longterm option. I believe Angel's H is also perfectly aware that he'll have to make a choice.
I know that people here say that WAS will sit on the fence for as long as they're able, but I didn't find that to be true of my H. He made the most progress, in dealing with his childhood issues, working through the depression, learning to use his rational mind instead of emotions again, connecting with his children and learning to feel for me again, in the approximately 3 months after he'd re-contacted her.
I know what you mean, Angel, about feeling things have gone too fast. I felt that after my H gave up the OW the first time--I knew I hadn't made enough changes yet. By the time he was ready to recommit to the M, I was prepared to let him go, knowing I'd be just fine without him. I didn't have the slightest desire to control the situation any more, only to do what was best for myself.
I agree that people can only move at the speed which is right for them, can only change in their own time. One day, Angel, you may decide you need to do something different. But for the moment, as long as you know that you're constantly growing, and are proud of how you're handling the situation (as opposed to feeling like a doormat), then your dignity is intact.
That's the strength of this site, that different people can post from completely different perspectives, allowing posters to be challenged by opposing views and then make up their own minds.
Absolutely agree, Cyrena. And I don't mean to be an ass, Angel, I really don't. I just hate seeing someone struggle in limbo, nearly two YEARS post-bomb.
Us humans are, at the end of the day, pretty simple creatures. At least I know us MEN are. And most of us are of the "body at rest tends to STAY at rest, unless acted upon by some outside force" thing. FEAR OF LOSS is a very powerful emotion, and my fear is that my husband DOESN'T fear losing you -- even if he maintains contact with his OW. And if he does that, I get concerned about your long-term emotional well-being.
I know that people here say that WAS will sit on the fence for as long as they're able, but I didn't find that to be true of my H. He made the most progress, in dealing with his childhood issues, working through the depression, learning to use his rational mind instead of emotions again, connecting with his children and learning to feel for me again, in the approximately 3 months after he'd re-contacted her.
I'm genuinely happy this worked out for you, Cyrena. Lord knows, we need more success stories -- they're encouraging. I do think that this is NOT a typical situation, however. Any good IC worth their salt will try to get a wayward patient to be free of BOTH relationships (separate from your spouse, if you must, but ALSO go no-contact with your paramour), to get into the proper decision-making frame of mind and emotion.
It's a physiological fact that contact with OM/OW juices up the PEAs in our brains, and blocks us to most if not all of our spouse's genuine efforts to meet our emotional needs.
Our C was actually a MC, who we'd gone to together just after (as it turned out) H had recontacted OW. The MC worked with my H alone for 3 months, until they were ready to "invite" me back. Of course, there was always the possibility during therapy, including EMDR, that H would choose to end the M, but what H asked the C for at the first meeting, and later, was how to get the OW out of his mind and feel a connection with me again.
I gather that PEAs work the most strongly for 6-24 months; after a while, my H felt more guilt than pleasure from contact with OW--kind of like someone might feel after gobbling down dozens of cookies in secret....
No problem, I appreciate it. As you said, each to his own, and we all have caveats in our situation that leads us to make certain decisions. Its always good to see how others think and do things..... I believe in havng a lot of options open.
There was a time when my self esteem would have taken such a nosedive contingent to what my H does. But one of the lessons I have learned through many people on this site, is that a lot comes from within ourselves - happiness, love for ourseves, etc. and that we do NOT need other people to complete us. And that is what I am working on, and believe me, I am making a lot of progress in that direction. That is why yes, I am doing fine - I don't even think of it now, I am able to work well, have a lot of happy moments with H and D together as a family.
There are caveats of course, in every relationshp that would determine what the actions of the LBS are, I think, and how much they are willing to take - if my H were physically abusing me, or mentally and emotionally abusing me on purpose, yes, I would not tolerate that. But he really does not. At this point, he does not really feel anything much for me, so could I force it? We have openly talked about how to work on gettng those feelings back. We both know it will take time, especially on his part. He knows having feelings for someone is wrong, and he has asked me to let him work on it, give him time. He once thought that he would never have a chance at happiness, because he was unhappy in our marriage, believing that there no longer was a chnace for love, but that he could not leave because of how his values and upbringing are. But after retrouvaille, he felt hopefull that one day those feelings would come back. But inspite of having no feelings for me at this point, he does take care of me.... he cooks for me everyday, even buys my favorite food, serves me at the table, is the breadwinner, doesn't spend on OW at all (the last time was more than a year ago when he sent her flowers on her bday).
What I have been told is piecing is hard. Expect many bbumps, expect backsliding, setbacks. Perhaps this is just one bump, among the many, that we will experience. But I do believe that he also has to suffer be able to see what the consequences are of setbacks, so I am not smoothing it out for him by not saying anything. I don't want to jump forward with my story, but I could see that H is now attempting to make amends and get back to where we were.
Oh, one more thing .... he does not go to OW's home country to visit her, it is for work. They have a research site there, and OW was one of their consultants who helps them recruit research subjects. I think she wants to go back to working with them, maybe an alternative motive for dating the boss.... I do not think well of OW obviously but I will let H find out about that on his own.
Anyways, I will soon post part 3, which I am working on.
Me:49 H:45 D:12 M:14 T:18 Bomb: 6/26/10 EA: 9/3/10, fizzled out slowly, now ??? 11/5/11 Retrouvaille Finally piecing.... Its peaceful at last, but we got a looong way to go
Hey, I didn't even see that while I was typing out my reply there was some going back and forth between Starsky and Cyrena! What you wrote about being proud resonates with me, because I do feel so proud that I have detached, and that I have learned to go back to being a strongly independent, outgoing, happy person!
You know, my H and yours could be soul-twins or something.
How you describe your H's obsession with OW is how I feel too. He did not write songs but he wrote "romantic" letters he never sent - I think more as a form of journaling. (I found those out by snooping). NOte: H is a well know unromantic person!!!!
Just a few days ago, H made a cryptic remark about journaling - he said that wthe feelings people write in a journal may seem so true at the time they are writing it, plus seeing it in a written form gives permanence to it, but that feelings are still just fleeting......
Ok, got to go back to work now.....
Me:49 H:45 D:12 M:14 T:18 Bomb: 6/26/10 EA: 9/3/10, fizzled out slowly, now ??? 11/5/11 Retrouvaille Finally piecing.... Its peaceful at last, but we got a looong way to go
Never got around to writing that part 3.... at this time it has become a moot point, as it seems like our M is going in a different direction.
A week ago, we were doing OK, then H mentioned that he needs to go again to OW's country. I was crushed, but tried to recover and then assured him that I promised not to be difficult regarding his work and that I trusted him to do the right thing.
However, H started acting paranoid, and we ended up in endless, circlar arguments that never got anywhere. I won't go into details, just thinking of it all is tiresome. One important point I remember is once I asked him why he was withdarwing from me, and he answered that he did not want tomake me expect or hope. I felt so hurt, that at one point I was feeling so low and even suicidal.
However, after a few days, things began to change. For some reason, H started answering my questions more directly. The things he said were very hurtful, like how he felt that in spite of our going to retrouvaille, nothing had changed in his feelings for me. How he felt that our foundation was really not solid, in terms of loving. How he still feels that he married his best friend. But I saw a change in how he was acting towad me. He started to tell me about how he hurts too when he sees me hurting, how he blames himself, how he cannot forgive himself for causing so much pain and hurt.
We had originally planned to attend a post session we missed on Sunday, and in site of what we were going through, he still wanted to go. When we were asked to share what we learned from retrouvaille, he said that now that we had been doing this for several months, he thinks that finally we are able to face our "ghosts" and accept what made our marriage go down.
I don't know right now where we are headed. Many times I had actually either asked him if we should just part, he tends to project on to me, saying that he doesn't think I could take it, I might become suicidal, and even when I tell him that I would survive, he still doesn't want to believe me.
His only commitment is to take it one day at a time. He still always says that he doesn't know if we will survive this or not, but that he is not saying we should go our separate ways.
We the realized that we were so negative, and I suggested that we should try to think of ways to be positive, and surprise, he agreed. So now we have an agreement to write down one positive attribute of our marriage everyday, and so far so good.
I am so confused, but all I could think of at this point is that it probably is part of the journey.
To add to my confusion, just when I feel that we are really very unsteady right now, he started talking last night about his lifelong dream of opening a restaurant, and was plannig for us to open one with a portion of our 401 K's! Wait a moment, I thought we were taking things one day at a time....
Crazyland still, as one of my friends would say.
Cyrena, if you are out there, what is your take on this new development?
Me:49 H:45 D:12 M:14 T:18 Bomb: 6/26/10 EA: 9/3/10, fizzled out slowly, now ??? 11/5/11 Retrouvaille Finally piecing.... Its peaceful at last, but we got a looong way to go
