One important point I remember is once I asked him why he was withdrawing from me, and he answered that he did not want to make me expect or hope. I felt so hurt, that at one point I was feeling so low and even suicidal.
Angel – the most attractive women are those who know themselves and understand their own strength sufficiently, so that when tough stuff comes up in their lives, they do not get low and suicidal … they get on with it. They smile, do their hair, accept that hurt happens – for without hurt how can we know happiness – and they make the best decisions for their life based on all the information before them.
Strong, smart, independent, happy women are the women men want to spend time with.
I think some women have a view that the strength of the commitment is sufficient to maintain attraction. It’s not. Attraction is something totally different to commitment and even love. Google “attraction” you’ll see what I mean.
Your husband is not feeling attracted to you. His visit with OW probably rekindled in him what he was attracted to in her, and it reminded him that it’s not there with you.
You can rebuild attraction – but just like DBing it starts with rebuilding you. It’s about putting down all those strongly held “yes, buts ….” And remaking yourself into a woman that is OK whatever her husband decides to do. Because you will be OK if the worst happened and you separated.
Quote:
However, after a few days, things began to change. For some reason, H started answering my questions more directly. The things he said were very hurtful, like how he felt that in spite of our going to retrouvaille, nothing had changed in his feelings for me. How he felt that our foundation was really not solid, in terms of loving. How he still feels that he married his best friend. But I saw a change in how he was acting toward me. He started to tell me about how he hurts too when he sees me hurting, how he blames himself, how he cannot forgive himself for causing so much pain and hurt.
This stuff is all about his lack of attraction. “feels like he married his best friend” = lack of passion.
It is also about shame. I read an article recently that MLC men ultimately live, because of the shame of what they’ve done to their families. I read it from a link someone (Kimmez maybe??) posted on MLC forum.
It’s good that he’s opening up to you about how he’s feeling – but it also means that his emotional maturity is developing and he’s reviewing what sort of emotional connections he wants in his life. Often when one partners emotional maturity and search for emotional/physical intimacy outstrips the others – this disconnect occurs.
Quote:
He seemed to have become incredibly patient this weekend. He looked at me, made his voice sound soft and even, even while arguing. He would catch himself. Even when I was pushing him. He would just say: enough, enough pain and hurt for the day. Lets call a ceasefire.
Angel - He’s patronizing you. I suspect in his head (if not in reality), he’s getting ready to make a break, he knows that he’s got all the time in the world to get his ducks in a row because you are going to be there no matter what, arguing and being part of the “pain and hurt (of) the day” that requires a “ceasefire” (strong and pain filled words Angel, when you think about it) and making life generally unpleasant.
In his head, you are not strong and can’t handle yourself or him – the arguing and freaking out are indicators that you are letting your feelings dictate your actions, rather than your rational thought. He sees that – and it’s unattractive. He’s talking you down, like you would an agitated child. I agree with Starsky – he’s playing you.
Quote:
He knows what is right, he has told me so,
Now if he messes that up, its his choice, and ultimately, he will be again suffering from guilt and shame.
Not only is that statement really judgmental and unloving … what is it 25yrsMLC says? Do you want to be right? Or do you want to be happy? Do you want a husband who stays in a marriage because it is the “right” thing to do. It’s going to be a pretty lonely and soiled up place in 20 years when you guys are retired and sitting on your verandah … with nothing loving to do or say to each other … but “right”????
And him suffering from guilt and shame (?) … not likely to be a big reason for him to stay in the marriage. Remember, some schools of thought indicate that “shame” is what makes them leave in the first place.
Quote:
You know, I was really trying to put together a plan for ending our marriage at one point during the week. I told him that we should plan to sell our houses in the next two years or so, and get our finances in order. I reminded him to pay for the company stocks, so we have college money for our D. I even had a plan in place for my returning to practicing my profession.
Because you wanted to separate, or because you were trying to scare and manipulate him? Games won’t work Angel. There’s a big difference between this and what Starskey is suggesting. This is a threat. What your husband needs to see is that you will not tolerate his uncommitted attitude to the marriage – but it needs to be real, and you’re not there yet.
Quote:
and also, he did agree to us going to IC. Thats a big step.
But Angel, again, this is you trying to offer solutions and engagement to manage and control the outcome. You hold on to his agreement to engage in these marriage building ideas you come up with (that's what's going through his head, because there's no evidence he's been any ways to make the marriage better) This is all about you. He “agreed” to go to counseling. Far out, the man is so confused and messed up he should be begging you to go to counseling.
You can’t do all this for both of you Angel. Take care sista. This is tough stuff.
((Angel))
V
Never make someone a priority, who makes you an option.
Angel – the most attractive women are those who know themselves and understand their own strength sufficiently, so that when tough stuff comes up in their lives, they do not get low and suicidal … they get on with it. They smile, do their hair, accept that hurt happens – for without hurt how can we know happiness – and they make the best decisions for their life based on all the information before them.
Strong, smart, independent, happy women are the women men want to spend time with.
I think some women have a view that the strength of the commitment is sufficient to maintain attraction. It’s not. Attraction is something totally different to commitment and even love. Google “attraction” you’ll see what I mean.
One important point I remember is once I asked him why he was withdrawing from me, and he answered that he did not want to make me expect or hope. I felt so hurt, that at one point I was feeling so low and even suicidal.
Angel – the most attractive women are those who know themselves and understand their own strength sufficiently, so that when tough stuff comes up in their lives, they do not get low and suicidal … they get on with it. They smile, do their hair, accept that hurt happens – for without hurt how can we know happiness – and they make the best decisions for their life based on all the information before them.
Strong, smart, independent, happy women are the women men want to spend time with.
I think some women have a view that the strength of the commitment is sufficient to maintain attraction. It’s not. Attraction is something totally different to commitment and even love. Google “attraction” you’ll see what I mean.
Your husband is not feeling attracted to you. His visit with OW probably rekindled in him what he was attracted to in her, and it reminded him that it’s not there with you.
You can rebuild attraction – but just like DBing it starts with rebuilding you. It’s about putting down all those strongly held “yes, buts ….” And remaking yourself into a woman that is OK whatever her husband decides to do. Because you will be OK if the worst happened and you separated.
Quote:
However, after a few days, things began to change. For some reason, H started answering my questions more directly. The things he said were very hurtful, like how he felt that in spite of our going to retrouvaille, nothing had changed in his feelings for me. How he felt that our foundation was really not solid, in terms of loving. How he still feels that he married his best friend. But I saw a change in how he was acting toward me. He started to tell me about how he hurts too when he sees me hurting, how he blames himself, how he cannot forgive himself for causing so much pain and hurt.
This stuff is all about his lack of attraction. “feels like he married his best friend” = lack of passion.
It is also about shame. I read an article recently that MLC men ultimately live, because of the shame of what they’ve done to their families. I read it from a link someone (Kimmez maybe??) posted on MLC forum.
It’s good that he’s opening up to you about how he’s feeling – but it also means that his emotional maturity is developing and he’s reviewing what sort of emotional connections he wants in his life. Often when one partners emotional maturity and search for emotional/physical intimacy outstrips the others – this disconnect occurs.
Quote:
He seemed to have become incredibly patient this weekend. He looked at me, made his voice sound soft and even, even while arguing. He would catch himself. Even when I was pushing him. He would just say: enough, enough pain and hurt for the day. Lets call a ceasefire.
Angel - He’s patronizing you. I suspect in his head (if not in reality), he’s getting ready to make a break, he knows that he’s got all the time in the world to get his ducks in a row because you are going to be there no matter what, arguing and being part of the “pain and hurt (of) the day” that requires a “ceasefire” (strong and pain filled words Angel, when you think about it) and making life generally unpleasant.
In his head, you are not strong and can’t handle yourself or him – the arguing and freaking out are indicators that you are letting your feelings dictate your actions, rather than your rational thought. He sees that – and it’s unattractive. He’s talking you down, like you would an agitated child. I agree with Starsky – he’s playing you.
Quote:
He knows what is right, he has told me so,
Now if he messes that up, its his choice, and ultimately, he will be again suffering from guilt and shame.
Not only is that statement really judgmental and unloving … what is it 25yrsMLC says? Do you want to be right? Or do you want to be happy? Do you want a husband who stays in a marriage because it is the “right” thing to do. It’s going to be a pretty lonely and soiled up place in 20 years when you guys are retired and sitting on your verandah … with nothing loving to do or say to each other … but “right”????
And him suffering from guilt and shame (?) … not likely to be a big reason for him to stay in the marriage. Remember, some schools of thought indicate that “shame” is what makes them leave in the first place.
Quote:
You know, I was really trying to put together a plan for ending our marriage at one point during the week. I told him that we should plan to sell our houses in the next two years or so, and get our finances in order. I reminded him to pay for the company stocks, so we have college money for our D. I even had a plan in place for my returning to practicing my profession.
Because you wanted to separate, or because you were trying to scare and manipulate him? Games won’t work Angel. There’s a big difference between this and what Starskey is suggesting. This is a threat. What your husband needs to see is that you will not tolerate his uncommitted attitude to the marriage – but it needs to be real, and you’re not there yet.
Quote:
and also, he did agree to us going to IC. Thats a big step.
But Angel, again, this is you trying to offer solutions and engagement to manage and control the outcome. You hold on to his agreement to engage in these marriage building ideas you come up with (that's what's going through his head, because there's no evidence he's been any ways to make the marriage better) This is all about you. He “agreed” to go to counseling. Far out, the man is so confused and messed up he should be begging you to go to counseling.
You can’t do all this for both of you Angel. Take care sista. This is tough stuff.
((Angel))
Angel,
Walking has given you a GIFT here -- this stuff is GOLD. DAMNED, TOUGH gold, but gold nonetheless (and no, I'm not just saying that cuz she said she liked my stuff).
I hope you will print out her post, and save it somewhere, and read it OFTEN. Within its wise and loving words is your pathway out of your pain, when you're ready to walk it.
Oh, and I'm not much of a hugger, but ((((Angel)))),
I think Walking's post is excellent, and hope it will offer you encouragement as well as food for thought.
I think one of the problems that has arisen because of going to Retrouvaille so early, is that you've been encouraged to talk about the M with your H. However, neither of you is really at the point to be able to do that. He is still in MLC, which means he's led by his emotions, not reason, and emotions can easily change, even in the course of a few minutes. You are deeply affected by his words, whether they're positive or negative, but there's no lasting intention behind them. By all means, validate his emotions--they're very real--but don't plan your future on them.
The most important lesson we can learn during a marriage crisis is to "hold on to ourselves," to learn to understand and soothe and respect ourselves to the point where we can't be thrown off track by another person's anger, depression, demands, etc. If you find yourself feeling suicidal because of H's words or actions, you need to keep working on yourself to get to the point where you love and accept yourself, regardless of his choices.
I agree, nobody can make any changes until they're ready, but I think that's still the target you want to aim for, to stop trying to control the endpoint of his journey in any way, while getting yourself to the point where you genuinely don't NEED anyone outside yourself. When you reach this point, he will notice, and know that for the first time he is really risking losing you.
I think Walking's post is excellent, and hope it will offer you encouragement as well as food for thought.
I think one of the problems that has arisen because of going to Retrouvaille so early, is that you've been encouraged to talk about the M with your H. However, neither of you is really at the point to be able to do that. He is still in MLC, which means he's led by his emotions, not reason, and emotions can easily change, even in the course of a few minutes. You are deeply affected by his words, whether they're positive or negative, but there's no lasting intention behind them. By all means, validate his emotions--they're very real--but don't plan your future on them.
The most important lesson we can learn during a marriage crisis is to "hold on to ourselves," to learn to understand and soothe and respect ourselves to the point where we can't be thrown off track by another person's anger, depression, demands, etc. If you find yourself feeling suicidal because of H's words or actions, you need to keep working on yourself to get to the point where you love and accept yourself, regardless of his choices.
I agree, nobody can make any changes until they're ready, but I think that's still the target you want to aim for, to stop trying to control the endpoint of his journey in any way, while getting yourself to the point where you genuinely don't NEED anyone outside yourself. When you reach this point, he will notice, and know that for the first time he is really risking losing you.
That's an excellent post, Cyrena. I think the bolded part, especially, very intuitively hits the nail on the head as to why this is so difficult right now for Angel.
As I am having more time to digest what happened over the weekend, I am realizing how true all of what you are saying.
Walking, the way you explain things really does make sense to me. I know I am stubborn, and still in denial, but the harsh and hurtful words from my H did make me see and and accept reality. I have became a clingy wife, the exact opposite of the person he first met and married.
I think I was suicidal more because I finally had backed myself against the wall, and could no longer find any excuses. That was MY rock bottom. For my H, nothing has really changed, and at that point he had to face my self-destructive phase and had to be the strong one at that point. Thus he became the patronizing parent.
Its a long process for me too. My masks are being ripped off, even to myself. I have become an expert in self soothing but did so by over analyzing and using all sorts of "buts".
I don't think this process can be measured by years but more by milestones.
Me:49 H:45 D:12 M:14 T:18 Bomb: 6/26/10 EA: 9/3/10, fizzled out slowly, now ??? 11/5/11 Retrouvaille Finally piecing.... Its peaceful at last, but we got a looong way to go
Hi, Angel! I wanted you to know that I've been checking on you since you commented on my thread. I am sorry you have hit a rough spot with your piecing. If anyone knows how you feel, it's me. It took three attempts at piecing to REALLY get it right in my marriage.
What finally made our reconciling work? It took me adhering to my boundaries and letting my husband know I fully expected him to respect my boundaries as well. Without them, I wasn't me and the marriage on his loose terms didn't work for me. I was never going to happy, even if we remained married, if he were to stay in contact of any kind with ow.
Therefore, I told him that without total transparency and honoring one another's boundaries, he could leave. You know what? He did, and filed for divorce....for a third time. Once again, my kids and I had to go through the pain of separation and preparing for a divorce. As much as it hurt, I knew that I wasn't compromising my values anymore. In the beginning after he dropped the bomb, I did all the wrong things again...begged, cried, pleaded, made deals, asked for more chances...but in the end, it just wasn't going to work out unless there was change. Once I got back to DB'ing, I worked on ME. There was no sense in trying to fix HIM in my eyes; one can only control themselves, and he wasn't interested anyway.
When he did start showing interest in reconciling, I made it very clear to him that it was going to be on my terms: total transparency and absolutely no contact of any kind whatsoever with ow. I wanted honesty and friendship and love and respect and trust to return to our marriage, and as long as she kept rearing her ugly head into the picture, that wasn't going to happen. I made it clear that if he wasn't willing to agree to these terms, then I was fine to proceed with the divorce. I put it all on the line because I knew that I would never have true happiness if I didn't honor my boundaries. Yes, life would be different if I had to get a divorce, but after all the work I had done on me, I knew that different would be okay...even a little exciting...definitely pretty awesome at some point.
The past 7-8 months of piecing haven't always been easy, only because I have allowed anger and fear to overcome me at times. I've learned to get it under control, and thankfully my husband has been very patient and loving with me during those very few times. Things are so very, very good now. But again, I know they'd be okay if I were divorced or almost divorced by now, too...because I had stuck to what was right for me and us as a couple.
Angel, you are a wonderful woman with a beautiful soul. You know what is needed for this marriage to really work...not just stay together for the sake of whatever, but really work and bring you and your husband happiness. Stand by what you know is right for you, and please take this opportunity to really focus on you making yourself the very best you can be...a woman only a fool would leave, as we say here.
Starsky hit the nail on the head here:
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Your husband will begin to respect those conditions and expectations no sooner than YOU do, Angel. I can't guarantee that he will if you will (although I highly suspect that he will, as he obviously loves you). But I can pretty much guarantee that he WON'T, if you won't.
Starsky
Hang in there, and know that I am thinking of you and hoping for the very best for YOU.
What finally made our reconciling work? It took me adhering to my boundaries and letting my husband know I fully expected him to respect my boundaries as well. Without them, I wasn't me and the marriage on his loose terms didn't work for me. I was never going to happy, even if we remained married, if he were to stay in contact of any kind with ow.
Therefore, I told him that without total transparency and honoring one another's boundaries, he could leave. You know what? He did, and filed for divorce....for a third time. Once again, my kids and I had to go through the pain of separation and preparing for a divorce. As much as it hurt, I knew that I wasn't compromising my values anymore.
To me, that's the beauty of boundaries, or -- as I like to call them -- "My Boundaries of Personal Integrity." Only YOU know what they are, but they should be a very short list; your "dealbreakers," as it were . . . those things that you, as a person with your values, morals and ethics, simply CANNOT ABIDE.
And this is how it works, in practical application: If you decide that "I will not live in an open marriage," and you state that as a boundary to a cheating spouse, and if that drives them away from you, and toward the other person? Well, then that's THEIR CHOICE, and them cheating -- and staying with me -- wasn't an option for me anyway, based on my own authenticity and values, so what have I lost? All I've lost in that instance is something that I could not have abided anyway.
