I understand "letting go," Angel. It still doesn't mean you drop your own personal boundaries. I'll give you just one example, from my own experience:
Even after I decided to file for DIVORCE from my wife, when she refused to end her affair (talk about "letting go" -- this was the ULTIMATE "letting go"), I still would not tolerate her talking to (or texting) her OM in front of me, or our kids, nor calling him from our marital home. She respected the boundary.
Did it "affect" me when she did that? Well, sure, but only to the extent that it made ME feel like crap that I would allow MYSELF (or my kids) to be treated so disrespectfully. I had already given up feeling personal sadness over it, or any illusions of "winning her back" -- I was done.
I just chafe when I see the "controlling" word thrown around these forums so loosely and, often, incorrectly. "You're too controlling!" is often nothing more than the rant of a wayward spouse, crying "I don't want to have any consequences for my poor behavior!" No, you cannot control another person, but you can ABSOLUTELY control how they treat US.
"We can only control what we will allow them to do to us when we're in ours"
I don't think you know the meaning of "let go". Letting go, dropping the rope, detaching - means that whatever they do will no longer affect you.
Let me throw another hypothetical at you, and ask:
What if you had sufficiently "detached" adn "let go" and "dropped the rope" enough so that, say, it no longer affected you that your MLC or otherwise wayward spouse was SCREAMING PROFANITY AND OBSCENITY at you often when you disagreed with them, or even for no reason whatsoever. You'd learned to master a "Oh well, that's your problem, not mine" attitude about it.
Would that make it acceptable? Would it be a good role model for your daughter? Or do you try to teach them, like people telling racist "jokes" in your presence, that this is a Boundary of Personal Integrity with you, and you don't allow others to treat you that way?
Is it "controlling" to tell my spouse not to scream obscenities at me, or my friends not to tell racist jokes in my presence? Or is it simply a boundary?
Exactly--once LBS learn their own worth, learn to love themselves fully, and break their bondage to everything that's been holding them back from past failures, they'll respect themselves enough not to allow themselves to be hurt any further by the WAS. And THAT is when the WAS will realize what they risk losing--because up until that point, there was no real risk, as the LBSer hadn't made all the necessary changes yet. But, on both sides, people can only change at the speed they're capable of.
Sorry, Starsky, I was responding to an earlier post by Angel.
I think your hypothetical question is, like most hypothetical questions, not particularly true to real life. Dropping the rope is not going to be automatically coupled to losing ones boundaries--quite the opposite.
Sorry, Starsky, I was responding to an earlier post by Angel.
I think your hypothetical question is, like most hypothetical questions, not particularly true to real life.
OK, care to comment on my real-life example then?
And I'm sorry, but I have noticed a DIRECT correlation -- in PRACTICE -- to the more passive approaches leading people to have very weak (or non-existent) boundaries. No, it SHOULDN'T be that way, but the one set of behavior seems to correspond to the other.
I'm speaking generally, not just about Angel. People take sound MWD principles from her books, and think that a "180" means "going out drinking with the guys," and that "dropping the rope" means "letting their wayward spouse walk all over them."
I AGREE with you that, if done properly, there's no reason why you can't simultaneously detach yourself from the other person's outcomes, while still enforcing your own strong personal boundaries, however.
And CTflor, no, there's nothing you said that made me uncomfortable. Its OK, I have been in situations myself when I pushed my ideas to other posters as well!!!! and I have also been the recipient of advice in the past and 2x4's that really helped me! Many times in the past I wanted to write letters to H, or become the WAW, and people had stopped me .... and all I could be now is thankful or else I would be in a broken family, having to deal with my D's anxiety,alone, at this point!
I have only been resistant to Starsky's push for setting boundaries because I see it as trying to control the R. And I have tried that tack so far and it failed me....
My H is still in the tunnel, that I am sure of. But he is peeking out. I do realize now that actually, I was the one making a big deal out of OW.
And talking about prayer, yes! I have been praying so much, asking for guidance. And God has been good to me. More than once, I had received insight on what to do, very specific ones.
For instance, a year ago I had prayed for Him to give me a date on when our sitch would turn around. And he did, in the Bible. On that exact date, something happened that made my H tell me that he had decided that he was not going to leave the M. It wasn't what I thought it would be, but it was definitely a start.
This recent happening, again I had a sign from God that I should just hang in there and pray with my hands off. On the MOnday after our rock bottom weekend, I was praying and suddenly had an insight that God would take care of things.
The next weekend, I learned that the XOW now has someone special and is planning to be married soon.
That when I also realized that I was making a big deal of things and actually what my H has been saying all along that he and only had contact with OW lately due to work was true.
I think every M has their own characteristics. Me and H, we were never the type to give up our individual freedom, I do not want total transparency, I don't need to know his every move, nor would I want him to know my every move. Yikes! For me that is too much!
Even with my D, I I have no "boundaries".... very loose, negotiable ones at most!
I am a person who does not really like rules or authority that much - I tend to rebel against any authority figure (like Starsky.... hehehe). I love breaking rules (especially those that don't make sense) and getting away with it ----- as long as I am not harming anyone, and as long as I am still operating within my values and morals. Classify me as a "free spirit", a "restless soul".
Me:49 H:45 D:12 M:14 T:18 Bomb: 6/26/10 EA: 9/3/10, fizzled out slowly, now ??? 11/5/11 Retrouvaille Finally piecing.... Its peaceful at last, but we got a looong way to go
I'm hardly ever here anymore. I have just one poster that I keep up with...
Starsky is a friend of mine. I was intrigued by your reaction to him, and read a bit...
I'll reply more later, but...
I will add one point now. My GOODNESS. You cycle almost as much as I used to, and IN RESPONSE to HIM and/or HIS ACTIONS only. It makes for a miserable existence (at least for me it did).
You have no idea what kind of peaceful, serene, and happy days are within your grasp... When you, define who you are, and your desire for life, and accept no less.
Me-46, D-21, S15, S13
After many years w/my head in the sand... I FILED Divorced 6/2011
The average woman would rather have beauty than brains, because the average man can see better than he can think.
You don't have to go to the extreme to give examples, as Cyrena says, because they are not bound to be real. Although I have read about it here, fortunately it hasn't happened to me.
I do believe though that because we are all civilized humans, brought up with the right values and traditions, we should know what they are. We don't even have to talk about it, rehash it all the time. I find all that sitting down and discussing things pointless.
And I do have a boundary, in a way. It will be what I call my own point of no return. And when that is reached, I will just end it all. Sorry, no warnings, butI think my H knows what those are.
Here's the lesson I learned about how civilized human beings brought up with good values react to their desire to do someting instrinsically wrong, like an A, or maybe some other thing like trying out drugs (both real life and condensed from reading stuff here and elsewhere)
1. They at first fight it 2. They can't fight it so they start fantisizing about it, and start justifying why it is OK, alhtough inside them they are not fully convinced. 3. They do it anyway, just a little, maybe hoping they can get away with it, and nobody will be hurt. 4. They get caught, and this is when they start believing the rationalizations and justifications they made. 5. Pride comes in, and they defend their actions. At this point, they don't care who gets hurt. They don't see others getting hurt. When others try to make them see what they did wrong, they fight back and rebel. Sometimes, they caught in this stage and never leave it. 6. They realize that they hurt others, but still prideful, they carry on. They may stop doing what they did but they are still justifying that it was not wrong. Guilt mixed with pride. 7. Acceptance of what they did wrong. Making amends and repartions. Might be too late, especially if they had cut ties.
My point here: if you have a wayward spouse or child, there are certain points that nothing you could say or do, not even boundaries, can stop them.
You have to rely on the fact that before that happened, they already know what's right and wrong.
Me:49 H:45 D:12 M:14 T:18 Bomb: 6/26/10 EA: 9/3/10, fizzled out slowly, now ??? 11/5/11 Retrouvaille Finally piecing.... Its peaceful at last, but we got a looong way to go
Starsky, I know the sort of posts you're talking about, but in my opinion they're NOT made by people who have dropped the rope. Doing 180s or equating dropping the rope with dropping all boundaries with regards to their spouse, only shows how tight they're holding on to the idea that if they do a, they'll get b (a restored M). Obviously, they have more learning to do....
I'm sure you're right that people with few boundaries lean towards passive approaches, and vice versa. But we all make mistakes when we're learning a new way of thinking, and I also see numerous people who (eventually) learn how to enforce boundaries and detach, as 2 complementary parts of one lesson.
In addition, I see a fair number of people who DO save their M's, yet it's clear (and often their return a few years later proves this) that they didn't finish working on themselves. And the problem is always a combination of not having detached sufficiently AND not having established adequate boundaries; they end up "settling" to get their partners back (or in new relationships) and lack the confidence to enforce clear boundaries.
