I've read DR and been reading the forums for a few months now. My own situation ebbs and flows from awesome to crap on a regular basis but as my patience is starting to run thin at times, I feel the need to share my own story, and hopefully get some input from the folks that have been thru similar experiences.
My wife and I are high school sweethearts, broke up when I went to college and got back together a year or two after I finished. During our getting back together period, my old girlfriend decided she should get pregnant to try to keep me around...not the best way to start off a marriage (my wife reminds me of this often, as if I'm too stupid to realize what a screw up it was). I fully disclosed, let her know what happened and tried to make her feel it was ok to bail out if she had concerns or was unsure. She stuck it out and we struggled thru those first couple of years dealing with lawyers, courts, custody, etc. In hindsight, stupid decisions on my part, but I was young and unaware. We ended up moving which gave us some peace....we had two more children relatively quickly, but I was a workaholic and she was a SAHM for the first time. I think she did awesome, but I really pulled into myself and didn't give her what she needed.
We moved again and she began to work, in a social atmosphere that was relatively uncomfortable for me. We probably spent 4-5 years where she was trying to get her needs met in her work, while I continually complained...again, not well played by me.
We moved again, she start working again, and eventually, she had an affair. To date, she claims it was just EA, but I seriously doubt that based on what I know, and frankly, it's not all that important at this point in time. The biggest problem coming out of it was that we didn't address the reasons for it happening and we didn't really heal me, or improve any of my insecurities. We sort of brushed it under the rug, as we did with most problems, and hoped it'd go away.
I had a rough childhood, divorced parents, tough times in a lot of ways....didn't really realize I was insecure until a few years ago, and now I can say with certainty, it was severe. I was insecure to the point I could barely say anything positive. I see now that it tore my wife down for years and years. She stuck it out the best she could til the point she had the affair, and then we threw a band-aid on it and had another child (unintentionally).
Fast forward to relatively present days. My wife has been having an EA with a different man (someone she works with closely) for 4-5 years. I think his marriage is trying so he wants the outlet, if for no other reason than to have someone pretty and smart talk to him regularly. A year ago Feb after a few beers, I read my wife's texts (I know...not great), and blew up about something he'd said. To this day, I don't feel like I am out of bounds because I think their relationship is unacceptable (still). But, it was the breaking point for my wife. She decided that night she was done.
We spent the next few months kinda bouncing around, trying to fix the brokenness. It didn't go great honestly. She comes and goes in terms of being part of the family and participating in every day stuff. I work from home, so have largely become the person who cooks/cleans/etc.
On the bright side, I was already starting to change 6-8 prior to Feb11...her telling me she was finished accelerated my changes. I read more, thought more and really changed....not just for the good of her, but for the good of me. I feel really good for the first time in my life. I think I love my wife and kids more than ever, and she certainly sees it, it's just such a difference, it's hard for her to adjust.
As of today, I'm in a continual struggle....I love my wife with all my heart. I truly believe she is my soul mate. We have 5 beautiful, incredible children. But she is so lost and confused regularly, she rarely calls, and comes home hours late after drinking. Given my original insecurities, my wife's EAs and her lack of concern for our home environment, I'm probably worse in some ways that I was years ago before I started reading/thinking about my issues.
The last 2 weeks has had "no call, late, been drinking" episodes about every other night. I have not taken them well, and frankly, I've started talking to her about moving out. On one hand, I know this is totally against the DB methods, but on the other, she hasn't really agreed to work on the marriage and continues to apparently damage it intentionally. I have told her numerous times...if you are going out with friends, or going to a work dinner, or whatever, please let me know so I can plan for the kids and myself. She just doesn't. Even when she does communicate, work is put before the rest of us (and when I say work, sometimes that means meetings at the bar for 3-4 hours).
I've been pretty stupid....stupid in the ways of love and caring, and stupid in the ways of interpreting and communicating with people. I am still not spectacular, but I am at least aware, and making strides. My wife comments all the time how I'm not the same person and how she doesn't really know how to react to the new me (it's been over a year now, and she's still confused).
But with all that said, I feel like I'm kinda past the point of DBing (which I think worked awesome) and into a phase where I think I need some positive response. Again, I'm not asking for a leap of faith, or piecing, but I need some basic consideration in terms of letting me know if she's going to be home at 6 or 9pm.
In terms of the process, I feel like I did really good at DBing for a while, and as things got better, I started to slide on a few things (mostly, selfish things, so I wasn't overly concerned). However, she's never gotten to the point of saying "I want to work on this." She does say she's sorry, and will try to do better, but I don't think there's any real commitment behind it. We scheduled to go to retrovaille next week, so I'm hanging a lot of hopes on that (assuming we make it....seems to be getting ugly lately).
So I guess I'm asking for advice on a couple of fronts...what kind of response should I view as acceptable to my adjustments and at what point do I start pushing for changes. I worry that my changes have allowed her to cake eat to a point.
Thanks.....appreciate all the insight from everyone.
Thanks for the response....I've seen your input on other threads, and I really appreciate it.
When I started to make changes, I guess I had really started to think about what I wanted out of life. I stopped reacting to things and starting asking myself, how do I want to react. I'm talking about everything....kids being loud, bad news at work, wife not calling, etc. I think this is when I started to break the chain so to speak.
After I read DR, I realized I was already doing a lot of the suggestions...180s and "as ifs." I tried to stay upbeat, and not get irritated so much, stopped grilling my wife on where she was and who she was with, starting doing more of my own things. The response was really positive, and really fast. I noticed significant changes from my wife within week.
At this point, she's not really saying she's leaving (though she does say it when frustrated and has a few beers). She is more often saying "I know I'm not treating you fair, or right, and I don't know why....I am confused, and I don't know what I want. I can't stop thinking about the years I've wasted, or how mad I am at you for things long past."
Some more background...I'm 43, wife almost 41, 5 kids ranging from 17 down to 4 (one is mine with OW from before marriage). Dated for 3 years in high school, saw each other regularly over the next 4-5 years for lunches and such, mostly on a friend basis, but the spark was always there. After college I got my first job and moved to TX....came back to town for Thanksgiving and thought I'd invite her to my mother's. To my surprise, she said yes, and that night changed everything. About a year later we married and have been for 15 years this year.
During the time we were apart in my college years, in some ways, I was pursuing, but felt she always had someone else at the time and I resigned myself to the role of friend. In hindsight, this actually made we feel like I was never good enough and when we did finally get together and marry, I never completely put myself into it as I was worried she would leave me.
In the last year, I feel like I have opened up completely, but at the same time, I feel like I've been getting the crap beat out of me. I've gone thru detaching and reattaching a number of times.
I've been reading and reading (currently 5LL), and I feel like we fight completely different these days, mostly (more listening, more insightful discussion, etc). I think we've started to get underneath a lot of the things she's dealing with, but she would generally prefer to avoid a problem than actually tackle it straight on. And if we do manage to tackle it, somehow it turns into a blame game of how I didn't give her what she needed for 10 years or how I had a child with someone else 15 years ago.
My wife seems to want to keep score....how many years who did what, how great she was for 10 years and how I sucked until the last year. Though we don't talk about it a lot, it is a recurring theme in the serious discussions we have about change. My only problem with those discussions is 1) it's used to deflect the main issue we're discussing, 2) the past doesn't rule the future and 3) she accepts zero responsibility.
To a point, she's right....she was an awesome wife for a long time and I just didn't know how to function as a loving husband. I thought I was doing the right things at the time, but I was too broken inside to actually give myself to her, and I wasn't even aware. When she finally gave up trying to make me happy (which I continually tell her today is not really possible...I didn't know how to be happy before, with or without her), she started trying to make herself happy thru work and friends. Eventually, that turned into EAs and even as current, more of a "screw you, I'm doing what I want" type of behavior.
While I would love for my wife to revert back to the woman who thought I was her everything, I'm not really asking her for that right now. I know this takes a lot of time and I'm willing to stick it out, but I have started to try to set some ground rules. I feel like if she says she'll be home at 6, it's not acceptable to roll in at 10pm, half crocked, at least not without a phone call. We really never had a discussion about proper marrital boundaries, so what I consider "normal" may really not be the same as her "normal".
Sometimes I think if I was doing some of the things she was doing that maybe she'd go "damn this [censored]" and pick up on it, but I don't because 1) I don't think she'd really see it...it'd just justify her behavior in her own mind (if he's doing it, it should be fine for me) and 2) I worry about the possibility of slipping up, should someone actually be nice to me and I've got enough to deal with.
I'll leave today with a question....has anyone else her tried to set up some boundaries for a healthy marriage? I don't mean "while we're separated we both agree to these things" but rather, "these are things we both agree not to do because we love each other and they could be unhealthy for our marriage."
Yesterday started pretty good. We both went to work...of course, she didn't get home til 7pm and then started dinner. I had said something about catching up on some shows if we could hook up about 5pm, but whatever. She did bring home some beers, so that was cool.
30 mins later she gets a visitor from work (the one she has the EA with) to talk thru a new deal. I took it in stride, went out and said hi....came in, got everyone a beer and hung out during the conversation. After he left, we ate and I wanted to call my dad since we were supposed to drop by the day before. My wife came outside and sat with me as I talked and I tried to hurry. After I got off the phone, she got back on the phone with her work associate. After 10 mins or so, I asked if she was going to wrap that up or if it was going to be an extended conversation. She immediately told me I was rude and how I was on the phone with my Dad, etc.
All in all, this really seems like small fry kinda stuff, but when we got to the BR, I tried to talk to her about it...admitted that I wasn't as respectful as I should have been, but she just continued to get more angry. In her classic avoidance stance, she continued to say "I don't want to talk about it, just turn on the TV." Eventually, I did turn on the TV, but did so with a snotty comment how that was my plan 4 hours prior. That was dumb, and she jumped out of bed, said something about leaving me again (recurring theme) and slept in the LR.
I'm continuing to struggle with where to draw the line. On one hand, I think I should continue to DB in all aspects until she actually says "I want to work on it" (that would definitely keep the peace, and probably make her happier). But on the other hand, I think if I do this, she will just think everything is ok and never actually say anything about working on it. I'm just not sure where we are. We are sort of piecing, but without her actually committing to do so.
Of course, retrovaille next weekend, so maybe that's our turning point for good or bad.
Retrovaille weekend is over and I highly recommend it. I've spent the good part of the last 12 months reading and thinking about myself and it was a pretty good validation that I'm on the right track. For my wife, there was no immediate change...we actually got into a heated exchange on the last exercise of the weekend. She gets it, she just doesn't understand how she can "choose" to forgive, or make the choice to love. Hopefully in time.
For those interested, the program basically focuses on learning to communicate better, primarily feelings. Even though we didn't see dramatic changes for us, it was pretty amazing to see the impact it had on other people in the program...very inspiring.
thanks for your opinions on Retrovaille... I've been looking into that as well, but I'm not sure I can get my WAW to agree to go... something to shoot for... I hope that you keep trying and continue to have faith that things will improve with your wife... how long are you prepared to work..? do you have what it takes..? keep it going... I believe in you... be good and stay safe...
M:40 W:31 S:8 S:5 D:8(prev. relationship) Bomb dropped: 5/10/12 It's not you it's me MO: 6/1/12 T:14 M:9
thanks for your opinions on Retrovaille... I've been looking into that as well, but I'm not sure I can get my WAW to agree to go... something to shoot for...
One of the couples that attended had been separated for 7 months, just finished all their paperwork a few weeks ago and were just about finished. The wife casually mentioned it to the husband and said she'd split it if he wanted to go. He wanted to get closure, and be certain he was making the right choice, so he agreed. When he showed up on Friday night, he said he wasn't even sure if his soon to be ex was even going to come....they didn't talk much, so he just wasn't sure. She did show up, and they stuck it out, and before we left on Sunday, he shared his story and said he decided that morning, during one of the exercises, that he did love his wife and he did want to be married to her. It's a long road for them, learning to communicate and care for each others feelings, but it's pretty amazing how it is able to bring people back from the brink in a very short amount of time.
Originally Posted By: Fightfire00
how long are you prepared to work..? do you have what it takes..? keep it going... I believe in you... be good and stay safe...
For me, I really was hoping we'd come out of this and my wife commit to something like "yes, I want to work on it." I wasn't looking for a miracle, just a commitment to do something about it. I didn't get that, but I did get some baby steps. At least she's still agreeing to do the follow-ups. For my part, I've got to be more patient.
How long am I prepared to work on it? I think as long as I see baby steps in the right direction I'll stick with it, even if that is years longer. I don't expect it to be a short term fix....it took us a long time to get here and it's going to take a long time to change our bad habits and open up to each other.
Thank you for sharing your experience with Retrouvaille. There's one coming up in my area and I'd love to get my H to attend, at least so I can say I've tried everything if we end up D. I haven't mentioned it to him, as I'm afraid he'll think I'm trying to keep us together, but it seems like we'd learn communication skills that would help us no matter what.
M36 XH34 M-5 T7 4/11 H confused 5/11 ILYB 6/11 OW discovered 7/11 I move out, OW over 5/12-OW2,done->new EA, but H wont file 9/12 H "best bf ever" to EA/OW3 3/13 H/OW break up H files 4/13 D 6/18/13
