so bustorama and cat: a question for both of you , while you discuss NLW on her thread in the third person (the same was done on mine, and it made me feel positively invisible - which only added to my own feelings of helplessness in my sitch, in which i feel so invisible already)
While we were talking about NLW in the third person, it wasn’t done to make her feel invisible. I am sorry if that is the way it came across.
Something that happens when different people have different viewpoints (ie, the way to approach something) it is easier to discuss it with examples. In the third person and in a more general way…
Originally Posted By: zig
If I NLW does or says this, would her H say it will pull him closer, push him away or be neutral at this time?
This thought is always present when I post to people. Personally, I try to keep from promoting any action that may push the S away (neutral or closer is the goal), which is why I cannot promote taking the hard line until the LBS is ready. And only the LBS knows when they are ready.
In my own sitch, the first time my X wanted to leave so many moons ago (1998), I took that hard line approach pretty quickly because I was tired. I was frustrated. I felt as if I couldn’t do anymore. I was angry when I drew the line. I was lucky, in that it worked to bring him back.
I don’t know what would have happened to me if it had back fired. I am pretty sure that I would have ended up bitter and angry and definitely not where I am now.
I say that because while things were good for a while, I still harbored resentments. I still wondered why he came back. I wondered if it was because I “forced” him into it.
When the bomb came again years later (2007), I was pretty convinced that my inner questions were correct. I was beyond angry at him and myself at that point.
Taking a different stance the second time, growing, healing, forgiving, finding out who I was and what I really wanted, looking at the whole picture much more objectively…
I found that even though we aren’t reconciled, I am much more comfortable with the entire process. I am at peace about our situation. I know now that I had just as much of a choice in our outcome as he did. I hold no anger toward him, we actually have a very friendly relationship now.
If we had reconciled, I believe that it would have had a much better chance of being a successful reconciliation.
As LBS, we get impatient. We get frustrated. If we don’t see the results we want happening fairly quickly, we want to act in order to cause SOMETHING to happen.
In my own sitch, the second time, most of my “action” that looked to others as if I was doing nothing, was internal.
I was not doing nothing, I was simply looking within for the answers that I needed to find. To grow. To heal. To become an emotionally healthy and strong human being.
Once I had done the internal growth (which never ends), I was able to take outward actions with regards to my sitch and my life. I was on my own timeline, just as the rest of us are. That didn’t make me weak and it didn’t make things happen in my situation any faster or slower than they were going to happen.
I realize some people see that as circular thinking. Putting the cart before the horse, or however you want to look at it. And to them, that is their opinion and they are entitled to have it. I see people say “we will work through the issues together when we are piecing”. That is wonderful if it works.
For me, what I decided early on, was that my best shot at having a healthy relationship, with my X or anyone else, was to be healthy myself first.
Cat
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
thank you for your lovely post. I agree with everything you write, and really am beginning to embrace what you have described. I don't think i could have said that even a month ago.
It takes a while 'to see' and once you see, then it all comes together and makes sense. and as you and others keep telling us newbies - the most important thing is us, where we are and what we can do while we are there.
I hope you understood that i wasn't challenging you in any way, more questioning and i really appreciate your beautiful calm answer.
i think you really stand by and act in everyones best interest,, and i am glad that we have you here to guide us towards loving actions rather than aggressive ones that we may not necessarily be ready for.
One thing i have recently learned - and it's huge for me is that if i worry about what i should or shouldn't do - it's a very good indication that i'm not ready to take action in either way for that thing, and if i wait and set it aside, it becomes a no-brainer when it is time to really "do " something about it.
which is basically what everyone is saying here when they talk about being ready. maybe the key for us is to develop the confidence to trust that we will reach that place of knowing what is right for us and meanwhile not to try and force what isn't really possible for us
also thanks for opening up about your previous sitch and telling us how you see it in retrospect - there is a lot of wisdom from your experience that is definitely worthwhile for us to hear.
zig
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
Part of my story that i don't think I've made clear before, is that when I found out about OW the first time (about 4 years ago), I reacted in the usual way: I demanded that H get rid of her. I laid it on the line: her or me.
H was repentant and horrified at being found out, really down at what he'd done etc.
He agreed to do anything I asked - even to the point of picking up his phone and dialling her on-the-spot when i insisted he give me evidence that he'd broken with her.
She was overseas on holiday at the time and I could hear her screaming cries on the other end of the phone as H said "I'm ringing to tell you it's over." And then, in response to her laments, "We never HAD a relationship".
She texted him back eventually, 'I will ruin your life.'
He showed me all of the exchanges.
Fast forward a few years and i hadn't been able to let the A go. H was spinning out over the death of 2 more of his grandparents and his spending was going out of control. There was so much tension between us.
He went back to OW, dropped the bomb, and here we are.
Basically, I think I learned the hard way last time that issuing him with a demand to chose between me or OW will not work. He has to be ready to want to come back to me. In the meantime, I'd like to have the opportunity to practice the new me I've been working on.
I know I've hurt him, judged and criticised and held the A over his head. I've been rude and controlling.
He is going to continue to be in my life as my children's father, and I want more than a non-speaking relationship with him in future.
More importantly, I want to see if I can overcome my previous knee-jerk reactions to the brutal reality of my situation. I don't want to lash out in anger and I've got to realise I can't control another human being. I've also got to be sure that my happiness depends on me and not on what someone else does to me or with me. Unless I can work these things out there's not much hope for me in a future relationship. And what better testing ground than in the crucible of this personal drama?
So yes, in short, I am not ready to go back down the "I will not have anything to do with you while you are in a relationship with OW" route.
Feel like i've been there and didn't do it at all well. In the meantime, though, I have to deal with my feelings of pain and the 'wrongness' of what he is doing, and focus on the bigger issue of forging a much better person out of this experience.
Not saying I won't get to the point of enforcing strong boundaries about when and where he can see me, but at the moment (and it is one year today from BD), I don't feel like it would help me much - in the sense of working on myself in the face of brutal realities.
Busto probably will still see me as kidding myself - but my focus is more on trying to ensure that I'm truly different in how i deal with H from now on than on setting up conditions that seem to be required for eventual reconciliation. If that makes sense...
so bustorama and cat: a question for both of you , while you discuss NLW on her thread in the third person (the same was done on mine, and it made me feel positively invisible - which only added to my own feelings of helplessness in my sitch, in which i feel so invisible already)
if YOU both tried to answer the question from this point of view
If I/NLW does or says this, would her H say it will pull him closer, push him away or be neutral at this time?
and then possibly help guide her towards the next steps she takes, I think that will be a lot more helpful for her.
What I am saying to NLW is that NLW, I do not think that your behavior should AT ALL be focused on whether it will pull your H closer, push him away or be neutral.
That is co-dependence and controlling to act in a way to control or influence what someone else does. It also is a disrespectful assumption to predict how someone else will react (and even more disrespectful to base your actions on that assumption in order to influence/control them).
In other words, I object 100% to that starting point of zig's coach (in my opinion, that also is not DB to act based on some expected response from someone else).
NLW, I have consistently said to you that I think you should be acting based on your own boundaries of how you wish to treat others and to be treated by others. Whatever path you choose, I would implore you that it is consistent with how you would treat others and how you would have others treat you.
I never suggested that you give an ultimatum to anyone. I never suggested that you act in an aggressive, mean-spirited or hard-line manner to another. I suggested that you only accept behavior in your life that you are ok with. And if you are not ok with it, to communicate that and enact boundary enforcements about it.
We teach others how to treat us by what we accept. NLW, I am afraid that you are teaching your H that you are ok with being cheated on and, by association, that you are not worth being loyal to. And that in some way you are communicating that to yourself as well. I could see that being a big blow to your self-esteem. You are someone to treasure. I hope you embrace that.
It is more than ok to say NO to someone else. To say I CARE FOR YOU, AND I AM NOT OK WITH THIS. That is not hard-line. That is loving ourselves.
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
when I found out about OW the first time (about 4 years ago), I reacted in the usual way: I demanded that H get rid of her. I laid it on the line: her or me.
H was repentant and horrified at being found out, really down at what he'd done etc.
He agreed to do anything I asked - even to the point of picking up his phone and dialling her on-the-spot when i insisted he give me evidence that he'd broken with her.
She was overseas on holiday at the time and I could hear her screaming cries on the other end of the phone as H said "I'm ringing to tell you it's over." And then, in response to her laments, "We never HAD a relationship".
She texted him back eventually, 'I will ruin your life.'
He showed me all of the exchanges.
Fast forward a few years and i hadn't been able to let the A go. H was spinning out over the death of 2 more of his grandparents and his spending was going out of control. There was so much tension between us.
I'm sorry you are going through this more than once, NLW.
Few thoughts: 1) I've boldfaced above places where it seems to me that you've partly excused WAS for his role in the current affair and blamed yourself. As many mistakes as you may have made in your R, nothing that you did compelled WAS to cheat on you not only once, but twice. Why do you think you are doing this?
You will need to forgive yourself and your own mistakes in order to empower yourself and, ultimately, also to forgive your WAS.
2) You've talked before and below about how being angry, demanding, shrill and controlling are characteristics of yourself that you would like to change. That they have been destructive to your relationship with WAS and perhaps other relationships. I hear that that understanding and past experience is part of why you may be hesitant to enforce certain boundaries now.
It is great that you have this self-insight and have a strong grasp on what you'd like to keep working on (and I see you already have made gains in this). A next step I would like to see you take is to understand that you CAN enforce boundaries and that you can do so in a manner that is NOT demanding, NOT shrill, NOT controlling. In fact, well-enforced boundaries are not at all about being hardline or demanding ultimatums (quite the opposite, really). If you haven't already, please try to find the time to read
Boundaries: When to Say YES, When to Say NO, To Take Control of Your Life by Cloud and Townsend
It talks about not only about WHEN but HOW to enforce boundaries in a way that is to protect you and take control of your life. And NOT to be controlling or demanding of someone else in doing so.
Originally Posted By: NLW
Basically, I think I learned the hard way last time that issuing him with a demand to chose between me or OW will not work.
He saw your value then when you confronted him with the A and you said, "no way, jose." I think what really didn't work is that neither of you changed. Both HOW you confronted him and what followed were more of the same unhealthiness. When one of you changes, the other will tend to follow.
Below I've restated your TOP 10 self-appointed things to work on. Notice that I have changed them from being about H to something different. These should be for YOU, not for H -- that is accepting the brutal reality.
Are these some of your areas you'd like to to work on? What's your plan on how to attain each of them? The more concrete and tangible milestones or paths forward you can set, the more manageable it will be.
1) I've hurt, judged, criticised and held the past over the head of people I've been close to.
2) I've been rude and controlling.
3) I want more than a non-speaking relationship with the father of my children in the future.
4) I want to overcome my previous knee-jerk reactions to my situation.
5) I don't want to lash out in anger
6) I won't try to control another human being.
7) I will make my happiness depend on me and not on what someone else does to me or with me.
8) I will deal with my feelings of pain and the 'wrongness' of what he is doing.
9) I will forge a much better self out of this experience.
10) from now on, I will focus on dealing differently with people that I love/care for, rather than on setting up conditions for reconciliation.
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
That is co-dependence and controlling to act in a way to control or influence what someone else does.
That's a pretty broad stroke of the brush.
How so? Guiding or modifying your own behavior in relation to the expected response of another is classic co-dependency:
NLW, do any of the below seem familiar to you from pre-D-Day OR to how you have felt in your sitch during the past few months?
Co-dependency involves compliance patterns of implicitly subjugating your own value to that of someone else, usually in order to gain "acceptance" or prevent loss:
For example:
• Do you assume responsibility or feel guilty for others’ feelings and behaviors. I sense that you were taking partial responsibility for your WAS' A behavior. That is his responsibility, not yours, NLW.
• Do you worry about how others may respond to your feelings, opinions, and behavior. I sense that you are even concerned about how I will respond to you, NLW. You are worth so much more than that.
• Are you afraid of being hurt and/or rejected by others?
• Do you have difficulty expressing feelings?
• Are you afraid of your own anger, yet sometimes erupt in rage?
• Do you have difficulty making decisions?
• Do you minimize, alter or deny how you truly feel?
• Are you very sensitive to how others are feeling and feel the same?
• Are you afraid to express differing opinions or feeling?
• Do you value others opinions and feelings more than your own?
• Do you put other people’s needs and desires before your own?
• Are you extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long?
• Do you not ask others to meet your own needs or desires?
• Do you not perceive yourself as lovable and worthwhile?
• Do you compromise your own values and integrity to avoid rejection or others’ anger?
Codependency at its core is the attempt to manage your own negative feelings (of low self-worth, fear of loss, fear of being alone, fear of rejection, of life being out of control) by implicitly or explicitly controlling those around you (e.g., to "bring them closer").
The real healing comes in breaking that cycle to learn how to manage your own feelings directly, to act in your own interest DESPITE those feelings, and to recognize that you will be ok even if you are rejected, even if you experience loss and even if you are totally and 100% alone.
Originally Posted By: kaffe diem
Still....
If one uses that as the pretence, then it should be safe to say that they don't want to force someone to be with them.
ie. Until the LBS is willing to walk away. Completely and 100%. And that would include whether or not the WAS is or is not with an OP.
Just thinking about that.
I am not 100% sure I followed the above, but if I understand you, I would say, yes, if the WAS has walked away from the R (with or without an OP), the non-co-dependent thing to do would be to accept that and for NLW (or any LBS) to begin working on herself and moving on in her own life, absent the WAS.
In practice, this can be very hard to do because of how attachment works and the pain and loss associated with getting to emotional detachment.
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
