Is this cake eating 7

[cat04]

NLW,

While I don't disagree with what Starsky and others say about establishing boundaries regarding your S and OP, I have to say that I would like you to really think about it before you act in any way.

Right now, you are having positive interactions with your H and he is getting to see you in a good light.

Those sorts of boundaries, are hard to place for several reasons.

First, you have to be ready to enforce them.

So if you say "I won't have contact with you while you are living with OW"...you may actually have to live that.

Because that sort of boundary at this point in time, will probably just make him angry instead of bringing him home.

Can you do that?

I don't think so.

Maybe in the future but not right now.

Unfortunately in these situations, there is no "do this and your result will definatly guaranteed be that" type of answer.

DB, what Starsky and others suggest, are all ideas based on what the people advocating the behaviors believe is right, moral, or what they have seen work in different situations.

Sometimes, we have to do what is best for us.

That can change over time. Right now, you are getting along with your H. Right now, he is still interacting with you, just not in the way you would like him to.

In the future, your interactions may change (get worse or better) or you may get to a point where you are willing to and are able to live with the consequences of such a boundary, or you may not need to set one at all.

You will know when the time is right to do anything differently than you are doing right now in regards to your sitch.

I would suggest you hop over to the MLC forum and read some of Wenitiki's threads. And maybe some of SeekingAnswers. See how they handled things.

[bustorama]

NLW,

While I don't disagree with what Starsky and others say about establishing boundaries regarding your S and OP, I have to say that I would like you to really think about it before you act in any way.

Right now, you are having positive interactions with your H and he is getting to see you in a good light.

Right now, there are positive interactions and H is seeing her in a good light? I disagree. Nothing has substantively changed for the better for NLW in the past 9 months (or so? I don't remember exactly when D-Day was). WAS is sleeping with OW. WAS is not remorseful or insightful for any of the damage he has wrought on NLW or their family. WAS has expressed no interest whatsoever in reconciliation.

Her H comes and goes to varying degrees playing faux H or faux Dad as he pleases. He came around more at the beginning of this than he does now. She has continued to violate her own boundaries across these 9 months. How many years do you want her to allow herself and her kids to be treated this way before enforcing her boundaries?

I mean, look, her very original thread title was: IS THIS CAKE EATING? This is version 7 of that theme. Her feeling that it is cake eating is an implicit sign that she knows her boundaries of how she wants to be treated are being violated. That something is wrong with this picture. That feeling is a red flag that your boundaries are being violated (by another person and/or yourself).

Those sorts of boundaries, are hard to place for several reasons.

First, you have to be ready to enforce them.

So if you say "I won't have contact with you while you are living with OW"...you may actually have to live that.

Yes. Boundaries need to be enforced. If they aren't, they aren't boundaries. Problems follow.

Because that sort of boundary at this point in time, will probably just make him angry instead of bringing him home.

Irrelevant what he does or how he feels. It is not to elicit a response from him. The boundary is for NLW -- not to let someone in her life that is mistreating her and her family, not to let someone in her life that has spent their family savings, that is cheating on her, that is neglecting their parental and spousal responsibilities.

Can you do that?

I don't think so.

Maybe in the future but not right now.

Are you calling her weak? NLW is a strong woman. Look at everything she has endured over the past 9 months trying to hold her M and family together. Just because the potential consequences of enforcing a core boundary may be scary, terrifying or even traumatic in the moment does not mean that we should not enforce it. More hurt, mistreatment and boundary violations often follow if we don't.

Is it not a boundary for you, NLW? Are you ok that your cheating husband comes over to spend time at the house with you and the kids? And then goes back to his mistress? I don't think I could ever be that detached myself.

Unfortunately in these situations, there is no "do this and your result will definatly guaranteed be that" type of answer.

Totally disagree. If she chooses to, she can almost guarantee that she can remove an adultering husband from her day-to-day life. That she will regain control of her day-to-day emotional life and not allow him to cake eat and cross her boundaries anymore. She might let her WAS re-enter her life at some point in the future if he stops violating her boundaries. Enforcing a boundary does not mean that you are irreversibly locking a door.

DB, what Starsky and others suggest, are all ideas based on what the people advocating the behaviors believe is right, moral, or what they have seen work in different situations.

Sometimes, we have to do what is best for us.

Violating your own boundaries is generally not good for you.

That can change over time. Right now, you are getting along with your H. Right now, he is still interacting with you, just not in the way you would like him to.

And she should be grateful that he is still interacting with her? That he is giving her crumbs of himself while he is baking cakes for OW? NLW is worth so much more. She deserves a bakery of tasty buns!

You will know when the time is right to do anything differently than you are doing right now in regards to your sitch.

When people go months and months without enforcing their core boundaries, deep resentment almost invariably seeps in. Good will and love are squashed. And bad behavior become entrenched habit.

[cat04]

She has continued to violate her own boundaries across these 9 months. How many years do you want her to allow herself and her kids to be treated this way before enforcing her boundaries?

This statement alone tells me that NLW is not ready to enforce such a huge boundary with her H at this point in time.

I have no timeline for her or anyone here. It isn't up to me to decide when 9 months or 5 years is too long or not long enough for someone to live as they choose.

I mean, look, her very original thread title was: IS THIS CAKE EATING? This is version 7 of that theme. Her feeling that it is cake eating is an implicit sign that she knows her boundaries of how she wants to be treated are being violated. That something is wrong with this picture. That feeling is a red flag that your boundaries are being violated (by another person and/or yourself).

Those sorts of boundaries, are hard to place for several reasons.

First, you have to be ready to enforce them.
So if you say "I won't have contact with you while you are living with OW"...you may actually have to live that.

Yes. Boundaries need to be enforced. If they aren't, they aren't boundaries. Problems follow.

Yes problems follow. Problems with self esteem, what if questions, bitterness because maybe the choice you wanted the WAS to make wasn't made.

The goal for NLW is to be able to enforce those boundaries at a time when she is comfortable with enforcing them. When she is strong enough within herself and detatched enough from the situation to feel good about them.

Are you calling her weak? NLW is a strong woman. Look at everything she has endured over the past 9 months trying to hold her M and family together. Just because the potential consequences of enforcing a core boundary may be scary, terrifying or even traumatic in the moment does not mean that we should not enforce it. More hurt, mistreatment and boundary violations often follow if we don't.

Boundaries should not have traumatic results for the person enforcing them. They might not always be easy but they are for our PROTECTION, not to create further damage to ourselves.

I am not calling NLW weak by any means. I think she is a very strong woman however until she realizes her own strength, power, and value, and begins to nurture that consistently, if she doesn't get the result of reconciliation that she is hoping for, this will weaken her further.

Unfortunately in these situations, there is no "do this and your result will definatly guaranteed be that" type of answer.

Totally disagree. If she chooses to, she can almost guarantee that she can remove an adultering husband from her day-to-day life. That she will regain control of her day-to-day emotional life and not allow him to cake eat and cross her boundaries anymore. She might let her WAS re-enter her life at some point in the future if he stops violating her boundaries. Enforcing a boundary does not mean that you are irreversibly locking a door.

Yes she could remove an adultering spouse from her life.

Is that what she wants to happen?

Or is it that she wants him in her life without the adultry?

She can enforce smaller boundaries that will allow her to take back control of her life without cutting him out entirely.

It takes knowing what you actually want before you act to determine what the proper boundaries are.

A perfect example would be, "I won't sit with you at the coffee shop and pretend we are one big happy family in public, when we aren't" and then let him sit and watch her and the kids have a snack and fun without him.

It isn't up to me or you or anyone else here to determine what the proper boundaries for NLW are because we don't set her goals and we don't have to live with the consequences of her actions.

Violating your own boundaries is generally not good for you.

While I completly agree with this, I will say again, that you have to be comfortable with the boundaries in order to enforce them. You have to be ok with the consequences, you have to be able to know that it is the best thing for you regardless of the reaction of the other person.

You wouldn't say to your child, if you call me and are a brat and hang up on me, I'm going to take your phone until you can change your behavior, if you can't be ok with them not having their phone when they are not with you, because we live in a world where public telephones basically don't exist anymore. Or some other excuse. If you choose to allow loopholes for the boundary to be violated, then setting them is more damaging that not setting them.

Boundaries are all or nothing.

They can start small, with things we can handle and enforce and they can become more over time if we feel it is necessary for the situation.

It isn't up to me to try to convince NLW, or anyone, to set boundaries. She knows she needs to do that.

As someone who is supportive of her and what she is going through, I feel that I should attempt to help to guide her on a path that will increase her self worth and her strength so that she can set healthy boundaries for herself.

Sometimes that means encouraging not what I might be able to handle in the same situation, but what she is able to handle right now and encouraging her continued growth, instead of trying to push her into something that she is not ready for yet
or to try to encourage her to a place where her decisions are based in anger.

When people go months and months without enforcing their core boundaries, deep resentment almost invariably seeps in. Good will and love are squashed. And bad behavior become entrenched habit.

I will agree that this can happen when people sit back and do NOTHING.

DB encourages baby steps. It encourages making small and measurable changes and seeing what the results of those changes are.

Sometimes that means changes within the situation, often times it means changes within yourself and how you feel.

If I remember correctly, DB doesn't encourage jumping into an all or nothing ultimatium without FIRST making many smaller changes.

Those include GAL, 180's, detatching, beginner's mind, acting AS IF, and becoming the better option, stop going down cheeseless tunnels.

And DB uses the term LAST RESORT TECHNIQUE for a reason.

If it were the first thing you should do, I'm sure it would be called something else.

[zig]

Ah NLW - I feel exactly like you express - we are really on our own roller coaster - actually it feels more like one of those skateboard thingies (can't remember what it's called ) where they jump of the rim and go down the wall and across and up to the other rim and back and forth and back and forth until they run out of momentum

on one rim is me saying to myself - why on earth would i want this and then the years of frustration and hurt well up and i remember all those "details" of all the things that didn't work for me - the whole thing in the shadow of ow's presence. i get myself into a mild frenzy and then as i calm down (descending) i plateau out for a bit, and then start climbing the opposite side and land up at the other rim where i'm saying - yes these are baby steps, i feel encouraged to stay encouraged - i just have to follow this plan (DB) and things will come out good, i don't have to lose my faith. and there i hover sometimes for quite a while, before the descent and back up to the other side.

now the rims are not quite as high on either side as they used to be, and i am realizing that the solution isn't to stay up on either rim - completely hopeful or completely giving up, but to bring myself to the plateau in between - where NEITHER stance is taken.

to be just where i am, acknowledging all the different parts and taking them to myself in equal measure

that feeling you express of feeling so surreal when you are all sitting there, and everything feels so bl@@dy normal - it IS surreal. i think those are the times i struggle the most myself. to me it seems so obvious - the solution. to me it seems so obvious that we can work it out because, NOW I KNOW what it will take.

but then i have to remind myself that just because I know, doesn't mean my h knows or will ever know.

i came to catch up on your thread, and i read the "discussion" between cat04 and bustorama.

when i read cat's post, i was totally convinced. when i read busto's i was totally convinced. then i realized - i have no idea which is the best way to go - it was the same on my thread- starsky saying one thing forcefully, the others saying something else, my coach saying even more.

and the reality is that we are still somewhat in a place where we haven't fully found a sense of ourselves and that's why we are waffling on which way to go. and we look to external things to help us decide because we can't ourselves. and there we are standing in the middle while people argue around us about what is the best thing we should do.

it's almost comical the position we are in - he says , she says. but what it comes down to eventually is "what do I SAY?"

and it was the first time i posed that question to myself really this morning.

one thing i feel i may have learned during this time of growth is that one can't force anything - either within oneself or onto someone else. one can't force oneself to be a certain way, to feel a certain thing, to view something with a specific outlook. one can only get there when one does, if one does.

i want to let go, because that is my 'best chance" of getting what i want - according to the experts. but letting go doesn't just happen because i tell myself that it should. it happens through a deeper process that has to be worked through, (well, it can happen through anger also)

i think the fact that you ask the questions you did in your post - they were more musings and observations on your part as you consider which way you might want to go as you figure things out. but the responses changed it to where it seemed you were asking the questions to get a specific answer.

i think when we are asking those kind of questions, the answer isn't what action we take specifically for the sitch, but what action we take for ourselves.

there isn't a right or wrong about what we could do (if you looked at it from the perspective that right would lead to r and wrong would lead to D), but maybe there is a more gentler way to approach it for ourselves.

to start at the beginning, sit oneself down and ask oneself - do i want to still work on this and save my m? what are the things/ situation/ scenarios that i can handle at the stage i'm in emotionally and mentally. can i handle h's presence in the house under these circumstances - or does it rip me up so bad that the time i should spend on myself and what i really need to do is taken, for recovering from it.

if the answer is that you can handle it and see it as part of the sitch, then you know that you are not violating your own boundaries for protecting yourself.

if the answer is no you can't really, then you know you are not protecting yourself fully and then it is obvious that you need to change it so that you are.

My coach made me write down a sentence. She said before any decisions you make or any interactions with your h ask yourself this question:

If I do or say this would my H say it will pull him closer, push him away or be neutral at this time?


If you continue to see this only from a "cake-eating" or not cake-eating point of view, then you are taking a hard line here, and not leaving yourself open to the possibility of other ways of looking at it. that point of view's underlying premise is basically an ultimatum. if you do that then you can't have this. so through your subliminal message you let your h know that you are taking a hard line here.

if you see it NOT from that point of view but rather, from asking that question above (based on the clear decision that you are wanting to still try to save the marriage), then you are giving an entirely different message - i care about how you feel, i care about how i make you feel.

if we see it from the point of view that we WANT to save our r's with our spouses, then creating the safe environment - does it come from seeing the worst of it (cake-eating) or from the best of it (creating a loving accepting atmosphere)?

i'm not just asking you these questions, i'm also asking them of myself and others here.



so bustorama and cat: a question for both of you , while you discuss NLW on her thread in the third person (the same was done on mine, and it made me feel positively invisible - which only added to my own feelings of helplessness in my sitch, in which i feel so invisible already)

if YOU both tried to answer the question from this point of view


If I NLW does or says this, would her H say it will pull him closer, push him away or be neutral at this time?

and then possibly help guide her towards the next steps she takes, I think that will be a lot more helpful for her.

I hope that what i have written here does not offend anyone, it is not meant to at all. I'm just seeing that many of us here are very vulnerable and some of us seem to be placed in a position akin to a ping pong ball being batted back and forth between the two courts of should we do this or should we do that.

one more thought - it was the hard-line position that many of us LBS's took, which caused us to land up in the position of LBS in the first place, and I seriously wonder if continuing to hard-line , just in some other context really is the best way to go? isn't that doing more of the same?

zig

[RoRoinMD]

Zig, you continue to amaze me.

Cat, I think I know where you're coming from as far as boundaries go, and what you wrote actually gave me some things to think about.

This is nothing but the truth: "...you have to be comfortable with the boundaries in order to enforce them. You have to be ok with the consequences, you have to be able to know that it is the best thing for you regardless of the reaction of the other person."

[bustorama]

I agree with much of what you say, cat. But, I'd like to highlight some differences of opinion. We all want NLW to prevail. That is clear.

She has continued to violate her own boundaries across these 9 months.

This statement alone tells me that NLW is not ready to enforce such a huge boundary with her H at this point in time.

That seems circular to me. Just because someone in an A continues to violate marital boundaries does not mean that they are not capable of following boundaries. We can choose to act DESPITE of our emotions, of our fears, of our feelings. We often get ourselves into trouble when we live based on our feelings. That's what the WAS are often doing after all. They choose feelings over boundaries. So do the LBS too often.

In my opinion, the hugest (core) boundaries are the most important to enforce.

Yes. Boundaries need to be enforced. If they aren't, they aren't boundaries. Problems follow.

The goal for NLW is to be able to enforce those boundaries at a time when she is comfortable with enforcing them. When she is strong enough within herself and detatched enough from the situation to feel good about them.

I agree that NLW needs to feel comfortable with the boundary from a "life code" perspective -- that she holds the firm belief that it is unhealthy for her to allow others in her life that do X to her. And then she progressively and consistently enforces that boundary from smaller to larger enforcements if the boundary continues to be violated.

I don't agree that she needs to be emotionally comfortable with the potential aftermath of enforcing the boundary. (Potentially) ending a marital relationship is a HUGE boundary enforcement. Is it something anyone is ever really emotionally at ease with? We can lead our feelings through our actions (or act despite our feelings), and boundary enforcements are often one such example of when it is important to do so.

Just because the potential consequences of enforcing a core boundary may be scary, terrifying or even traumatic in the moment does not mean that we should not enforce it.

Boundaries should not have traumatic results for the person enforcing them. They might not always be easy but they are for our PROTECTION, not to create further damage to ourselves.

I think there is a short-term/long-term distinction that I see. In the short-term, enforcing some boundaries may be quite painful. In the long-term, the net results is protective though, because it stops cumulative and sustained mistreatment.

It's the analogy of cutting out a loved one from your life that is addicted to drugs and impacting your life negatively. In the short-term, it may be devastating to shut out that loved one from your life and lose them. But as you detach from them and recover from the chaos they brought into your life, the healing, recovery and return to normalcy can begin. And maybe they can begin to fix themselves as well.

I think [NLW] is a very strong woman however until she realizes her own strength, power, and value, and begins to nurture that consistently, if she doesn't get the result of reconciliation that she is hoping for, this will weaken her further.

I think this is why the first step to recovery is to accept that reconciliation is not on the table, to stop hoping for it. That the M is already dead. And, yet, you are ok. And have a whole world you can seduce.

If she chooses to, she can almost guarantee that she can remove an adultering husband from her day-to-day life. That she will regain control of her day-to-day emotional life and not allow him to cake eat and cross her boundaries anymore.

Yes she could remove an adultering spouse from her life.

Is that what she wants to happen?

Or is it that she wants him in her life without the adultry?

She can control the former. Not the latter. Live based on what you can control, not what you can't.

She can enforce smaller boundaries that will allow her to take back control of her life without cutting him out entirely.

YES, I'm all about progressive enforcement of smaller boundaries. And I think that is a fabulous way for NLW to see how powerful she really is. How much control of her own life she has, if chooses to exercise it.

NLW, I totally agree with Cat here. Those nagging feelings of something not right (him dropping by for 2 hr, coffeeshop incidents, etc.), you can definitely enforce boundaries around those specific instances of things bothering you. THat's a great place to start. Figure out what bothers you about the situation. What you are not ok with. Then express and enforce that boundary, just like cat04 says below.

A perfect example would be, "I won't sit with you at the coffee shop and pretend we are one big happy family in public, when we aren't" and then let him sit and watch her and the kids have a snack and fun without him.

Violating your own boundaries is generally not good for you.

While I completly agree with this, I will say again, that you have to be comfortable with the boundaries in order to enforce them. You have to be ok with the consequences, you have to be able to know that it is the best thing for you regardless of the reaction of the other person.

Again, I would distinguish here between knowing it is the way you choose to live and be treated vs. FEELING that it is right for you. In my opinion, you need the former, not the latter. Might be very scary or painful at first to enforce the boundary. That's ok. Doesn't mean you should not enforce it if it is how you want to live and be treated. I agree with you that you need to be prepared to enforce the boundary consistently or it is not a boundary (or worse than no boundary).

You also need to be equally ok with the consequences of NOT enforcing a boundary. If you develop increasing degrees of resentment or feelings of disbelief/incredulity/hurt at the other person, it's often a sign that you are not ok with the consequences of not enforcing the boundary.

They can start small, with things we can handle and enforce and they can become more over time if we feel it is necessary for the situation.

Yes, progressive enforcements.

As someone who is supportive of her and what she is going through, I feel that I should attempt to help to guide her on a path that will increase her self worth and her strength so that she can set healthy boundaries for herself.

I see this as a bit of the cart before the horse. In my view, effectively setting and maintaining healthy boundaries is part of how we realize and maintain our own self-worth and strength. As you set them, you not only protect yourself, but empower yourself, value yourself and realize your self-efficacy.

instead of trying to push her into something that she is not ready for yet

Saying she is not ready to choose something because she chooses not to do it is circular. She might be very scared or resistant to do it -- in no way means she is incapable of acting despite her fears or feelings. My D10 had a terrible blood phobia, caused her to pass out and vomit, even. One approach would have been waiting for her to be ready to try to expose herself to blood, another might have been baby steps of systematic desensitization, and another might have been immersion and confronting her with the very thing she feared most a bloody hands-on dissection, uncertain of what the consequences might be. Or some combination of the latter 2. In treating phobias, you don't wait for them to be comfortable with what they fear. Rather, you confront the person with what they fear the most -- you ask them to act despite their fears. And the fears diminish. The empowerment comes from the post-hoc (not a priori) experience that they are actually ok, with WHATEVER consequences follow.

or to try to encourage her to a place where her decisions are based in anger.

Totally agree with this. She should not be acting from her feelings.

If I remember correctly, DB doesn't encourage jumping into an all or nothing ultimatium without FIRST making many smaller changes.

Those include GAL, 180's, detatching, beginner's mind, acting AS IF, and becoming the better option, stop going down cheeseless tunnels.

And DB uses the term LAST RESORT TECHNIQUE for a reason.

If it were the first thing you should do, I'm sure it would be called something else.

This is a common misconception. MWD is clear in her writing that the LRT should actually be the IMMEDIATE thing to do in cases like NLW's (and most people on this board). Many people choose to ignore this critical passage from MWD's writing (probably because it may seem terrifying to undertake it). Doesn't make it wrong because it is uncomfortable.

MWD EXPLICITLY says :

"It's imperative that you begin doing the last-resort technique immediately if:

- Your spouse has said to you in no uncertain terms that s/he wants to get a divorce and it appears as if s/he really means it. It wasn't just said in the heat of battle.

- You and your spouse are separated physically.

- You and your spouse still live together but have very little to do with each other. You may be sleeping in separate rooms, have virtually no communication, and little or no sexual contact.

- Your spouse has filed for divorce"

[sayitaintso]

Great posts Busto, Cat, & Zig..Helpful for all

[bustingout]

Very helpful. Thank you

[NLW]

Hi everyone,

Just to say I am still here and have been reading and thinking to the point of exhaustion over these posts.

I still don't have much to say, other than that my mind-set is changing as a result of all this recent discussion.

I no longer feel as intuitively that H will eventually come back. I'm facing the 'brutal facts' of my sitch more realistically than hopefully.

My sitch wears me down. You all know how that feels.

Right now I don't really have it in me to say much in reply - other than to thank you all very much for taking such an interest in my situation and showing such concern.

The discussion here has really helped me to move forward. I can't articulate how I feel at the moment, but there is a greater sense of clarity about how i am doing things.

Just please know that it has helped me a great deal to hear these views explained so thoughtfully and with such care.

In the latest development, H has announced to the kids that he is going on a trip to the UK in a week or so. At first I felt sick at the thought of more thousands of $$ down the drain. The financial implications of this will be dire. I just felt like giving up. Now, I don't really care what he does. His life is his to do with what he will. Mine is separate and I don't have the luxury of expecting anything, including rationality, from him.

[zig]

(((((((((( NLW))))))))))

I felt the same as you while that discussion was going on on my thread.

just know this NLW - you are resting and just getting to a new place within yourself. you don't have to do anything right now. all you have to do is focus on trusting that the universe has your back and you are going to be okay either way.

i think there comes a point in all our ditches where we just sort of give up and let go of it all and give ourselves a much needed break. and it's okay to feel that and give that to ourselves.

it's only when we get worn out that we can propel ourselves forward in our own direction.

you have us all at your back too

so just be for a bit (bug puts it more eloquently, i think)

and all will come out alright in some way

take care of yourself, and know that you are the most important person in your world and you can make your world what you want it to be.

zig