Wife says she wants divorce, but hasn't left yet

[Neode]

Here's my situation, and what I've done so far. I can provide more detail on the back-story if necessary, but I'll focus mostly on the current situation for this post. Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Back-story: My wife and I met six years ago, she got pregnant after a month of dating, we got married after 3.5 months of dating. Things went downhill fairly quickly a few months after marriage, I had an EA four years ago, and then things were mostly tolerable for the past few years. We had our second child 1.5 years ago, and then after 1 year of maternity leave my wife went back to work.

Present situation: Fast forward to 5 months ago. My wife had just returned to work, but after a year of mat leave we were used to her doing pretty much everything around the house, and she tried to keep that up even after she went back to work (and I wasn't much help, I was used to her doing everything). She started feeling very overwhelmed, and told me that she wanted a divorce. We talked about it, and I agreed that I should help more around the house, and did so. She agreed to stay. Things seemed to be improving, but then two months ago, she started talking to her ex boyfriend.

Prior to this, she was very open with her phone. For example, if someone texted her while she was doing the dishes, she would get me to check it and send the response for her. After she started talking to her ex, she got very secretive about it. She would stop texting and hide her phone when I came in the room, or leave the room to read and respond to texts. I got suspicious, spied on her, and eventually discovered that she was having a physical affair with him. As well, she had a date planned with another person, but that got called off when I found out (all the details of the spying and the affair would make this post really long, but if any more detail is needed, let me know and I'll add it). She claims that the planned 'date' was innocent, but I have doubts.

Physical intimacy (cuddling, hugging, kissing) has been very little over the past two months, and pretty much solely when I initiate it, and sex has been almost non-existent. She has been very adamant throughout this that she wants a divorce, has spoken with a lawyer, but hasn't gone so far as to actually separate (law here requires 1 year separation before divorce can be granted). She has discussed it at length with her best friend, and (to the extent that she's shared these conversations with me) her friend is completely convinced that the divorce will happen.

Reading through DB, the list of things NOT to do reads like a list of things I've done. Begging, crying, trying to convince her that we can work things out, trying to talk out our problems, trying repeatedly to initiate physical intimacy when she doesn't want to, etc. Even before reading DB, I had realized that this wasn't working, that it was driving her away more. I stopped most of those things before reading DB. Things have improved a little bit since then.

This past weekend was quite pleasant, we went out for dinner on Friday, had some friends over on Saturday night. Last night (Sunday), as we watched TV, she actually cuddled up to me on the couch, which was a pleasant surprise. When the topic comes up, she still says that she wants a divorce, but she only brought it up a couple times this weekend (previously it had come up any time we talk about anything more than a month in the future). We talked about a couple of events happening in February, and, while somewhat reserved, she was at least open to the idea of making plans to attend.

Things I've been doing differently so far:

• Trying to be more proactive about doing housework (not waiting to be asked)
• Not asking for sex or other physical intimacy nearly as often (though still sometimes). Since I reduced the frequency, she's been more receptive. I was rejected for kisses far less often in the past week than in the two months before.
• Started working out again last week. I'll be heading to the gym with some friends 3 times per week from now on. One of her complaints is that I've grown some love handles since we started dating, so I've decided to get rid of them (not just for her, for me as well, and so it's easier to meet someone new if we do get divorced). Working out also helps me feel better in general, which helps with:
• Trying to be a happier person in general, and especially when we're together. (Over the past two months especially, I've been quite depressed. Probably quite depressing as well)
• Scheduled talks. We've started planning our talks about our relationship in advance, so she knows when to expect them. Prior to this, she felt like I was talking at her all the time or would feel ambushed, and would just tune me out. At the same time, I felt like if I didn't talk about something when it was on my mind, I'd never get a chance.

Our talks are still not rigidly scheduled. We just sort of plan them whenever. She still complains whenever I ask to plan one, but generally agrees. They're also fairly open ended, they don't have a specific end time. We're having another talk tonight, and after reading DB, I'm going to ask her about making them a regular M/W/F feature, but limiting them to half an hour in length. That way she won't have to feel like I'm pressuring her to plan them whenever I ask, and she won't feel like she's going to be stuck talking about our relationship for hours, because of the time limit.

Any suggestions for what to do going forward? Should I be doing LRT right now since she says that she wants a divorce? Or should I keep going the way I've been going, since I'm seeing some small improvements, and she hasn't actually made a concrete move towards separation/divorce yet? Anything else I should/shouldn't be doing?

[Neode]

Ok, so an update:
She was good with having talks every M/W/F, for half an hour, so that's the plan going forward.

I forgot to mention above that we've been going to marriage counselling, I think we've had 5 sessions so far. Mostly we've gone over the whole back-story, haven't really gotten much in the way of solutions out of it. Had another session last night. My wife still says that she wants to separate. She had an explanation why things were more pleasant over the past weekend: She's currently injured (fell down the stairs at the restaurant on Friday), so I've been helping her out quite a bit getting around the house, getting up/down, etc. She says that because of the extra help, she felt more like being nice to me.

[AnotherStander]

Hello and welcome to the forums!

Back-story: My wife and I met six years ago, she got pregnant after a month of dating, we got married after 3.5 months of dating. Things went downhill fairly quickly a few months after marriage, I had an EA four years ago, and then things were mostly tolerable for the past few years. We had our second child 1.5 years ago, and then after 1 year of maternity leave my wife went back to work.

Have you EVER had any times in your marriage that were great? Because it sounds like the best you ever had was "tolerable". It sounds like you got married for all the wrong reasons.

[*]Trying to be more proactive about doing housework (not waiting to be asked)

Like Yoda said: "Do. Or do not. There is no try." Or as one of my college professors said: "If you say you 'tried' to do X, then what you're telling me is you were unsuccessful."

[*]Not asking for sex or other physical intimacy nearly as often (though still sometimes).

So basically you're "trying" not to ask as often. See above.

[*]Trying to be a happier person in general, and especially when we're together.

There's that nasty word again. OK, I know in this case you can't just turn PMA (positive mental attitude) on like a switch, so you do have to act at this one. So do act "as if" everything is fine and do your best to maintain a PMA. It'll require less and less acting as time goes on until it just becomes your new attitude.

[*]Scheduled talks. We've started planning our talks about our relationship in advance, so she knows when to expect them.

Yikes! No, don't do that! Do not ever initiate R talks! If she brings it up then listen to her and validate her emotions, but don't bring it up yourself. At this point I would tell her "Look W, it seems pretty clear you don't want to have these conversations and I'm concerned it's doing more harm than good, so would you like to just set this aside for now?"

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).

Our talks are still not rigidly scheduled. We just sort of plan them whenever. She still complains whenever I ask to plan one, but generally agrees.

Of course she does, because she sees them as PRESSURE. Pressure is bad! You are pushing her away, even out the door. Stop the pressure!

Any suggestions for what to do going forward?

Yes. DETACH. GET A LIFE. Print out the DB 180 tips and LIVE them. Here are a few:

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.

[AnotherStander]

Ok, so an update:
She was good with having talks every M/W/F, for half an hour, so that's the plan going forward.

This it to talk about the R? Or just chat? Just chatting is fine, but if this is for R talk then it could be very harmful.

I forgot to mention above that we've been going to marriage counselling, I think we've had 5 sessions so far. Mostly we've gone over the whole back-story, haven't really gotten much in the way of solutions out of it.

Seriously, 5 sessions just on the "back-story"? You might consider ditching that C right away. A solutions-based C would have spent maybe 15 minutes on back-story before pushing you to focus on the future. Dwelling so much on the past will hurt things, not help them.

[Neode]

Hello and welcome to the forums!

Thanks.

Have you EVER had any times in your marriage that were great? Because it sounds like the best you ever had was "tolerable". It sounds like you got married for all the wrong reasons.

This is pretty much an accurate assessment. Add to that a whole bunch of changes in both our lifestyles right after marriage, and you have a recipe for disaster, which is what we've got. Basically I'm trying to build something worthwhile out of the mess I'm in. There have been some periods that were happy, but they were always short lived.

[*]Trying to be more proactive about doing housework (not waiting to be asked)

Like Yoda said: "Do. Or do not. There is no try." Or as one of my college professors said: "If you say you 'tried' to do X, then what you're telling me is you were unsuccessful."

This one I've been quite successful at. I have occasional relapses, when I forget, but almost all of the time I'm getting the housework done before she asks.

[*]Not asking for sex or other physical intimacy nearly as often (though still sometimes).

So basically you're "trying" not to ask as often. See above.

Yes. I went from basically constantly begging for physical contact to only trying for goodnight kiss in the evening, goodbye kiss in the morning. The hardest time for me is in the evenings. We typically sit up in the evenings watching TV for an hour or two, and it's hard to resist asking her to cuddle on the couch.

There's that nasty word again. OK, I know in this case you can't just turn PMA (positive mental attitude) on like a switch, so you do have to act at this one. So do act "as if" everything is fine and do your best to maintain a PMA. It'll require less and less acting as time goes on until it just becomes your new attitude.

Will do. It's hard sometimes, though it's been easier since I've started working out again. It's amazing what a bit of exercise will do for your mood.

Yikes! No, don't do that! Do not ever initiate R talks! If she brings it up then listen to her and validate her emotions, but don't bring it up yourself. At this point I would tell her "Look W, it seems pretty clear you don't want to have these conversations and I'm concerned it's doing more harm than good, so would you like to just set this aside for now?"

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).

Our talks are still not rigidly scheduled. We just sort of plan them whenever. She still complains whenever I ask to plan one, but generally agrees.

Of course she does, because she sees them as PRESSURE. Pressure is bad! You are pushing her away, even out the door. Stop the pressure![/quote]

Previously they were that way. I would ask about what was wrong, what I could do to fix it, and ask for reassurances. Since reading DB I've been using them to try to get insight into which times are better than others from her perspective, and why, so that I can hopefully reproduce those times. (Trying to figure out what works, so that I can do more of that) Should I abandon this approach?

Yes. DETACH. GET A LIFE. Print out the DB 180 tips and LIVE them. Here are a few:

Thanks, I'll work on them.

[Neode]

Seriously, 5 sessions just on the "back-story"? You might consider ditching that C right away. A solutions-based C would have spent maybe 15 minutes on back-story before pushing you to focus on the future. Dwelling so much on the past will hurt things, not help them.

How do I find a solutions-based C? Or how can I get our C to be more solutions-oriented?

[Neode]

Are there any good resources for how to detach? Whenever I start to consider that it might be time to move on, my stomach twists in knots and I start to feel really needy.

[chatterbug]

Is she still committing adultery? If the answer is yes then bring that up at MC as the major issue in your marriage. Everything else takes a back burner until you get this squashed. Then state you will not work on relationship talks until this issue is resolved.

Do not have sex with her when she is having sex with other men.

Get to a doctor and get checked out. Full tests. Do not be stupid here. This is your health your playing with.

Get to a lawyer for a free consultation after you go to your province's website for divorce and read up on your rights as a father and as a man. Then go ask questions. What to do and what not to do.

DO NOT MOVE OUT. DO NOT LEAVE THE BEDROOM. She is free to leave the marital bed is she chooses but you stay where you are.

If you want to move this forward quickly and skip a few months of limbo then detatch and work on your boundaries. Then live by them. Since she brought crisis to the family. You being a marriage warrior and attacking the affair and the waywardness with a tough love approach is a way to place the crisis where it truly belongs. On her lap.

[Neode]

Is she still committing adultery?

To the best of my knowledge, no. Her ex that she was seeing broke it off with her (I think he felt somewhat guilty, having been cheated on by his ex-wife). The date with the other guy was called off, and she stopped talking to him after she was found out. As far as I know, there is nobody else in the picture.

Do not have sex with her when she is having sex with other men.

Didn't know she was at the time. I only found out for sure that there was adultery going on after the affairs had been ended.

Get to a doctor and get checked out. Full tests. Do not be stupid here. This is your health your playing with.

Already got the referral, just need to get time to go to the lab to get the tests done.

Get to a lawyer for a free consultation after you go to your province's website for divorce and read up on your rights as a father and as a man. Then go ask questions. What to do and what not to do.

Will do. Probably should've done this months ago. I've been so focused on trying to prevent D that I didn't think to protect myself in the case that things go South. I'll try to make an appointment tomorrow.

DO NOT MOVE OUT. DO NOT LEAVE THE BEDROOM.

I won't. I made this clear to her a long time ago.

She is free to leave the marital bed is she chooses but you stay where you are.

So far I have resisted her attempts to leave the marital bed. Last time she asked was probably 3 weeks ago or so (well before I picked up DB). Should I bring it up and suggest that she leave the bed, or should I just not resist if she brings it up again?

If you want to move this forward quickly and skip a few months of limbo then detatch and work on your boundaries. Then live by them. Since she brought crisis to the family. You being a marriage warrior and attacking the affair and the waywardness with a tough love approach is a way to place the crisis where it truly belongs. On her lap.

Any advice on how to detach? Every time I think it might be time to move on, my stomach ties in knots and I end up feeling really needy, which doesn't improve the whole situation.

Do you mean set boundaries for myself, or for her? Given that she currently says she wants a divorce, I can't exactly tell her "don't do this or its over", can I? Should setting boundaries be saved for if/when she actually decides she wants to stay in the marriage?

Thanks for the advice.

[Neode]

She just phoned me at work (stuck working really late tonight) to let me know that the weather [censored], and to make sure that I have enough winter clothes, otherwise she'd come pick me up (normally take the train, have a 10 minute walk from the train to the house).