W filed, I think we can make it work - what to do?

[Spartan]

New here but ran into the site recently and a lot of the info looks good. I’m about half way through the DB book (just past 180 deg section) and it’s making sense because what I’ve been trying obviously isn’t working (or I wouldn’t be here). Here’s my story (sorry for book)

My wife and I have been married 15 years and together for 20. Met freshman year of college, moved in together our sophomore year, so basically went from parents to each other. We both bring a lot of baggage into the marriage and we’ve dealt with it since the start. My dad walked out on us when I was 3 and I never really got over it. I had all the symptoms of growing up without a dad: fear of abandonment, control issues, lack of trust, and not knowing what a husband/ man should act like. My mom over-compensated in raising me and always made me feel like I was right which led to me having a rather large ego and always feeling like I was right and everyone else around me needed to change to see it my way (many of these things are new revelations, more on this later). Since my mom raised me I’m more talkative about feelings and emotions then most guys. Rather than stonewall an argument I’d much rather get it all out and work through the issue. Both my wife’s parents are alcoholics and have been since she was born. She grew up as a codependent (never rock the boat, better to lie then hear the lectures, shut down if questioned rather than voice her opinion, doesn’t show feelings (emotionless) and she never really received love from either parent). Her dad was also a control freak and most consider him a narcissist. She also tends to see the negative side of things and rarely remembers anything good. About 4 years ago her parents and my wife had a big blow up and they haven’t talked since which has been tough on her because it split up their family. Her older sister sided with parents to stay in the money and her younger sister chose her because she felt same way about the parents.

Obviously you can see that our issues don’t gel well together (talk vs stonewall, trust issues vs lying, control vs. feeling controlled, etc…). Somehow we’ve managed to stay together for 15 years of marriage and are raising 2 great kids (D7 and S4). Our parenting strategies work very well together and it’s a strength of our marriage.

About 8 years ago I almost filed for divorce because she was having an emotional affair with a guy from her work. She came back and stopped talking with him, we got pregnant (well she did), and the marriage eventually went back to normal but we didn’t really resolve any issues. I had lost some trust that I’m not sure I ever regained. About 2 years ago we were struggling in our marriage and our D kept asking about church. My wife’s friend convinced us to go to a service and it changed our lives. Felt like they were talking directly to us and we’ve been going ever since. She never was religious before and her parents are atheists; I was raised in church but never had a relationship with Jesus (I knew the stories but that’s all they were to me). Within 6 months we were both saved and this April we were baptized together. We are in small groups, active in the church community, volunteer together, everything and I felt like it was making us a stronger couple. The underlying issues were there but felt like we were making things work.

In June we celebrated our 15 year anniversary on a weekend cruise and had a great time together. Three weeks ago we went to Chicago with family and had a good time. When we got back she told me she was getting coffee with a female friend one morning. I was driving by a Starbucks she doesn’t go to and there she was walking outside with a guy. Obviously I was enraged. I stopped the car, told her to get in, and completely went off. Telling her I thought we were done with all this, asked how could I ever trust her again, etc… I went away that weekend and when I got back on Sunday night she told me she had filed for divorce. Since then my life has been a roller coaster. She swears the guy is just a friend. I know where she is most of the time (either home, work, or with kids) so I honestly don’t think anything physical has happened but obviously something isn’t right. She said she lied because she didn’t want to rock the boat and have to answer questions of why she was going for coffee with a guy.

The last 3 weeks I’ve done some heavy internal reflection and I now realize a lot of my issues (a lot listed above) which no matter what she had said before I never truly saw. The biggest one was that I always thought she was so screwed up that once her counselors got through to her she would see how great a guy I was and everything would be fine. I now know that’s absurd. I have a ton of issues that I should have been working on all these years. I was really hard on myself after realizing these things but now I know them and am truly working on them. I’m also scared to death for my kids because they are both very happy and think we have the perfect family. My wife is in denial and thinks they’ll be just fine and divorce will only affect them for a couple weeks.

So last week I read her 2 lists, 1 with the things I felt like I had done wrong and was responsible for in the marriage. This is the list I’m currently working on improving myself and I apologized to her (almost cried while reading it because it makes me sick). This list was a LOT longer than I expected it to be. The 2nd list is things that I admire about her. I’ve never really provided her much feedback and according to her I’ve beaten her down over the years instead of built her up. I feel some is me and some is the way she reacts to situations is just very different than how I do. That night she seemed very receptive and was nice the next day. 2 days later I wrote her a letter reiterating what I was working on, how I saw what our new marriage could be, and asked for another chance. I asked if we could start couples counseling because she was dead set against it. The next day she told me she still has no interest in counseling or reconciling. She said her tank is empty and she has nothing left to give. I don’t think she’s ever really tried and she has admitted as much during other conversations because she doesn’t want to get hurt or end up in her parent’s marriage. Her cousin just got divorced from an alcoholic, dead beat dad and she said he did all the same stuff after she filed (letters, promises to change, etc…) so she thinks this is just a ploy by me to get control again. She also said it was a slap in the face that it took her filing for divorce for me to finally want to change. I know I’ve screwed up and should have shown her more love and given her the support she’s needed. I told her I can’t explain why it took this and I said I wish I could change the past but I can’t, I can only work on today and the future.

On top of all this my wife has a disease that limits her (sometimes very exhausted, always tired, muscle soreness, etc…) so I do a lot of the daily chores around the house. I don’t mind doing them and I’m scared if she goes through divorce she will get really run down. I think she’s in a MLC because she keeps saying she doesn’t want her parents marriage, she wants freedom, and doesn’t want to be married/ tied down to anyone.

What should I do? We’re still living together and neither of us plans to move before the divorce is final (at least 160 days away). I started seeing a Christian counselor to work through my issues. I’ve also started reading a lot of self-help books (DB, 5 love languages, Changes That Heal, and of course the Bible). I’m praying all the time and I feel strength from God but still have a lot of emotionally bad days. My Christian friends have been extremely supportive and I talk to at least one of them every day. She wants nothing to do with me and every time I try to talk or ask her about anything she gets mad. She’s also distancing herself from kids when I’m around. I know I should give her space but it’s so hard. I didn’t mention I’m an engineer and my normal function is to fix things (which also pisses her off). I was thinking of being normal when kids are around (they have no idea on any of this) and when they go to bed go to different floor and not talk to her; I’ll just read, workout, whatever. I also thought I’ll plan more things to do with kids and just tell her we’re going and let her decide to come or not. I also considered stopping chores and make her do more stuff that I’ve normally been doing but I hate the idea of her suffering physically because stress affects her illness.

To be clear I want to save my marriage and show my wife that I am changing. I want to finally show her support and serve her to give her the freedom to be who she wants to be. I don’t want to manipulate or fake anything. I don’t even care about the other guy so please don’t tell me they’re having an affair because if they are I’d just blame myself for not being man she needed.

[Cadet]

Welcome to the board.

Get out and GAL.

DETACH.

Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.
Stick to this thread until 100 posts for your story.

Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
Use it wisely.

Knowledge is Power.

[ForeverYoung]

No more relationship talks. No more letters, telling her you're changing or asking for another chance. Let your actions do the talking. Give her space and time. There are no magic words or actions to make her reconsider, so spend your energy on the only thing you can control; yourself.

[Spartan]

Weekend update: I started my 180's on Thursday and have completely stopped discussing anything marriage or our kids futures which is hard because I always seem to want to talk. Friday she had to work late and said she was going out with friends after. I didn't respond to that, only told her kids and I were going to my buddies fire fighter school graduation and I'd get them to bed. To my surprise she was home before us (by 9:00).
Saturday she got called into work so kids and I planned a day together. Around 4:00 she sent me text saying she was done and asked what we were doing. I'd usually drop what we were doing to accommodate her but instead replied with list of errands we were running. To my shock she asked if she could join us so she met up with us and had dinner. Yesterday we all went to church then went swimming with kids at gym. Before swimming she got on the treadmill next to me which she hasn't done in a long time.
We still don't really talk and there seems to be an underlying tension in the air. She also told me she was going out of town in 2 weekends with her cousin to visit her grandpa who is really sick, rather then ask any questions or details (which I would have done in past) I just said "that will be nice for you guys to see him". I don't think she's had any change of mindset but I was surprised by a few things. I'm continuing to read self help books and the Bible. I realize when I'm not trying to do things for her but doing them for me I feel much better. It's hard to do though since I've been doing the other stuff for so long but no one said the 180 would be easy. Detaching is also really hard since we're still in house and doing things together with kids.

[AnotherStander]

I had all the symptoms of growing up without a dad...

First, just forget all this ancient history of how you guys were brought up. Let me assure you, EVERYONE had issues in childhood. Counseling that spends endless time dredging up old junk like this is just a waste of time. DBing is solutions-based, this means focusing on the future, not the past.

Our parenting strategies work very well together and it’s a strength of our marriage.

Great parents often make poor spouses. My W and I are a great example. We spent all our time focusing on the kids and no time for our R. Now we've got 3 awesome kids living with the fallout of a broken M.

I was driving by a Starbucks she doesn’t go to and there she was walking outside with a guy. Obviously I was enraged.

"Obviously"? Why would that be obvious? My response would have been to wave to W and say hello, then ask her later who it was she was with and give her a chance to explain. Is your relationship such that she can't even talk to or be seen with men because you'll fly into an uncontrollable rage? If so, do you think this is normal?

So last week I read her 2 lists, 1 with the things I felt like I had done wrong and was responsible for in the marriage. The 2nd list is things that I admire about her.

OK, well that's fine but I'd just leave that be now. She knows what you plan on working on, no need to keep beating her over the head with lists. Now what you have to do is show her through actions that you're serious, and you must have patience because it's going to take a lot of time. We're not talking days or weeks, we're talking many months.

I’ve never really provided her much feedback and according to her I’ve beaten her down over the years instead of built her up. I feel some is me and some is the way she reacts to situations is just very different than how I do.

So on the one hand you say you've made this list of your faults and are serious about repairing those faults, but on the other hand you want to lay the blame for most of the faults on your W and just take responsibility for "some" of it. DB'ing is focusing on YOU and YOUR problems. NOT assigning percentages of blame.

I don’t think she’s ever really tried and she has admitted as much during other conversations because she doesn’t want to get hurt or end up in her parent’s marriage.

There's the blaming again. Every time you assign her blame you're trying to control the situation. Your heavy-handed control is what landed you here to begin with. Your controlling nature is why she was afraid to tell you about her unhappiness and afraid to tell you she was having coffee with a male friend. Changing your controlling nature should be your priority 180. And listen up, when you tell her "I've changed, I want another chance, let's go to counseling" you know what she hears? "I haven't changed, I'm still controlling and manipulating, you want to leave and I don't want you to so I'm going to tell you I'm changing to stop you."

so she thinks this is just a ploy by me to get control again.

Yeah, and is she right? Ask yourself. Really, really think about that. I was somewhat controlling too, and I know how hard it is for a controller to discover that they are a controller.

I said I wish I could change the past but I can’t, I can only work on today and the future.

Yes, good. Make this your mantra!

and I’m scared if she goes through divorce she will get really run down.

Her problem, not yours.

I think she’s in a MLC because she keeps saying she doesn’t want her parents marriage, she wants freedom, and doesn’t want to be married/ tied down to anyone.

Sounds more like WAS.

What should I do? We’re still living together and neither of us plans to move before the divorce is final (at least 160 days away).

Count yourself lucky. You've got a lot of time. Show her 180's. Work on yourself. Make yourself stronger, more confident, more attractive, a H only a fool would leave.

I’m praying all the time and I feel strength from God but still have a lot of emotionally bad days.

I've believed in God and Christ since I was very, very young and have walked with them for all these decades. Since you're relatively newly converted, let me share my views with you. Too many people use God as a crutch, they convert and then they pray for all their problems to go away and they expect instant relief. But God doesn't work that way. "Problems" are there for a reason, you can't wish them away. God expects to see you work through your trials and grow. He doesn't put you through suffering for no reason. And he doesn't do it so he can test you, he already knows you through and through. He does it to teach YOU something about YOURSELF. In your current trial, he's going to teach you STRENGTH and PATIENCE. Remember, you are on his timeline, he's not on yours. Pray for understanding of his will, don't pray and tell him what to do. Pray for strength and patience, not for this to go away overnight.

She wants nothing to do with me and every time I try to talk or ask her about anything she gets mad.

Then pull back. Detach. Give her space. Focus on you.

I didn’t mention I’m an engineer and my normal function is to fix things (which also pisses her off).

Women don't want fixing, they want validation.

[Spartan]

Thanks for responses. AnotherStander, I see what you mean by my blaming tone and controlling nature in my initial post. My control issues are the main thing I'm working on. Does anyone have any good book recommendations on that subject?

I also appreciate what you wrote about religion and God teaching me something about myself. It's also a good reminder that I'm on his timeline, not mine.

[Spartan]

Woke up feeling down today for no apparent reason so figured why not post something and maybe get some support . 2 nights ago my wife's grandpa took a turn for the worse so her and her sister took a day trip down to see him. Through entire thing I was very supportive, rearranged my schedule to take care of kids/ appointments and she actually thanked me a couple different times. She got home late, grabbed some cold pizza, and brought it in family room where I was and ate it (she's never done that before). We had a small talk about her family that went well, I let her do most the talking. She slept in bed again and actually snuggled up against me a few times. The odd part was she said after she let dog out at 4:00 she didn't sleep well and that's when I noticed her close to me. Those things should make me happy to feel like some progress is being made but like I said I'm really down today. Not sure if I'm reading into things, if she's starting to see my changes, or if it's nothing at all. This helpless feeling of being in limbo with no real feedback is so tough, I really want her to tell me where she's at...Patience is such a tough thing to learn and adhere to but I have to let her come back to me (right?):)

[AnotherStander]

My control issues are the main thing I'm working on. Does anyone have any good book recommendations on that subject?

I haven't read it, but a lot of people here recommend "Codependent No More". Here's a blurb from Wiki about the book content:

The term codependent originated as a way to describe people who use relationships with others as their sole source of value and identity. It comes directly out of Alcoholics Anonymous, part of a dawning realization that the problem was not solely the addict, but also the family and friends who constitute a network for the alcoholic. Codependents often end up in relationships with drug (including alcohol) addicted spouses or lovers. In the book, Beattie explains that a codependent is a person who believes their happiness is derived from other people or one person in particular, and eventually the codependent becomes obsessed with controlling the behavior of the people/person that they believe is making them happy.

[Breakdown]

An awful lot of similarities between my sitch and yours.

DR is a good start...follow up with The Five Love Languages. It's another eye opener if you haven't thought of things that way before. Codependent No More is really good too, but I'd put that 3rd on the list.

I had all the symptoms of growing up without a dad...

First, just forget all this ancient history of how you guys were brought up. Let me assure you, EVERYONE had issues in childhood. Counseling that spends endless time dredging up old junk like this is just a waste of time. DBing is solutions-based, this means focusing on the future, not the past.

I'm going to disagree slightly with this. For me, it was important for to understand where some of my feelings, ideas and habits came from. There was some healing I had to do there in terms of forgiving my parents and such. Afterwards though, you have to make a conscious decision, without the baggage of your history....who do I want to be? What kind of a H? What kind of a father? There are no excuses to be made....you decide, then you do it. You have bad habits, but you can decide to change them.

As for your W's history, again, it may help you understand her point of view and perhaps be more patient with her, but you can't fix her stuff, so leave that part of it alone.

Do not play the blame game...it just takes you down an old, destructive path. Own your part, and stop. For example, you say "I am sorry I behaved this way. I am insecure and trying to deal with it. I hope you can forgive me. But your behavior is unacceptable."

"But" negates everything you said before that, so you might as well just said the last sentence. So focus on you, what you can do, what you can own, what decisions you can make.

All the other points AS made, I strongly agree with. Again, focus on you right now, be happy and upbeat around your W, GAL, do some things you've always wanted to. If your sitch is as similar as it sounds, nothing will be more helpful to you than appearing confident and happy around your W. It's probably something you haven't done much of throughout the years.

[labug]

I'm going to disagree slightly with this. For me, it was important for to understand where some of my feelings, ideas and habits came from. There was some healing I had to do there in terms of forgiving my parents and such. Afterwards though, you have to make a conscious decision, without the baggage of your history....who do I want to be? What kind of a H? What kind of a father? There are no excuses to be made....you decide, then you do it. You have bad habits, but you can decide to change them.

Thanks for saying that. There are different approaches, the trick is to find the one that allows the client to make progress. I, too needed to dig up a lot of garbage before I could plant new grass.

I went to a solutions-based counselor a few years ago and it didn't give me what I needed at that time.

The yardstick should be, Are you moving forward?