My W had a bday after BD but before she moved out, and initially I was going to ignore it but in the end it just seemed like a really cold thing to do so I did have a small party for her and got her some gifts. I didn't spend nearly as much on her gifts as I have in years past though. So it was sort of "bday lite". After she moved out we had our 20 year anniversary and gifts seemed really inappropriate for that since she had just left, so in that case I called her and asked her what she thought we should do. Her response was "I don't know, it's just all so wierd." So I said "Why don't we just go out to dinner, it's not so much to celebrate the anniversary as to just acknowledge it." And that's what we did. Then at Christmas I contacted her and told her I just wanted to verify that we were just getting stuff for the kids and not for each other, but to my surprise she DID want to exchange gifts. So then I had to do some last-minute shopping, LOL! I guess what I'm saying is try not to mind-read what you think your W wants and just ask her. Say something like "given our situation I'm not sure how to approach V Day, do you want to exchange gifts, or maybe just go out to dinner, or do nothing at all?"
Sorry, I couldn't disagree with this more. If you ask 100 married women, one of their leading complaints is that us men do way too much of the "I don't care, anywhere you want to go" thing and don't LEAD enough. And that's in HEALTHY marriages. To ask a wayward wife -- when they are actively in an affair -- what they want to do about marital things is going to come across as weak and supplicating to her. If you're DONE with her (and the marriage), and just want to co-parent civilly, that's fine but if you're still trying to DB and save your marriage these kinds of things are ATTRACTION-KILLERS.
YOU should decide what you want to do (or not do) about Valentine's Day, and then just DO it. If she asks you, "Why didn't you get me anything?" just politely and confidently say "Considering where our marriage is right now, I decided that it wasn't appropriate."
By the way, that "I decided that _____" framing can be super-useful. Not so much if you LEGITIMATELY were formerly controlling SOB in the marriage, but otherwise it shows strength. LEAD.
Very confused as to how to treat wife. No doubt everyone will say I need yo focus on me. I am focusing on me, but how I act towards my wayward wife during this phase (often called plan A) is critical. And I need pointers.
Some of sandi's db rules seemed to not work in bringing my wife closer. With more affecting and a little touch and I feel she is warning. This is why I needed to talk to laurie to clarify.
Went to the show saturday night with W. Had a great time. Then went home and talked about how we missed D3 who was spending the night at MIL.
Made my W laugh, had a good time, like the good old days.
You mentioned several times you are looking at marriage builders as well as Divorce Busting. I think this is a big source of your issues and confusion, and the source of exasperation from the people on this board. You need to pick one or the other, these two approaches are diabolically different in intent and approach. You cant cherry pick and choose aspects you like from each and expect anything other than the mess you find yourself in.
In DB, you should be doing "the 180" in its entirety. Detaching yourself by building a new life outside of your wife for the benefit of improving yourself whether or not your wife decides to reconcile. In DB, you DONT snoop. You DONT expose the affair. You DONT interfere with your wife's affair. You DONT do anything for your wife. NO pursuing, NO dating, NO valentines. You do things for yourself, new actions, activities, and build a better life for yourself outside of your relationship. It about you growing into a better person, and maybe or maybe not your spouse will decide you are the better option and choose you, and if not, you are in a good position to move on anyways.
Marriage builder's "plan A" does involve tons of pursuing activities like actively trying to meet your spouses emotional needs. So, yes, date them and do valentines. BUT!, BUT the "carrot" of plan A doesnt happen without the "stick" of actions designed to attack the affair - snooping, documenting, massive exposure of your spouse and affair partner to friends/family/work, confronting the affair partner, and doing everything in your power to interfere with and stop the affair - blocking numbers, canceling internet, cutting of money and taking away the car. And in marriage builders, if they still choose the affair after all this, before you would find yourself in the cake-eating limbo you are in you would go into plan "B" which is complete and total separation and non contact from your spouse.
As best as I can tell, most of your actions look like you are trying to use marriage builder's "plan A" carrots and ignoring the "180" rules against support and pursuing, but then conveniently choosing to use a few parts of DB's "180" to justify not taking any plan A "stick" actions over her flagrant abuse of you to further her affair. And then you are coming on to a DB forum for feedback and driving people here crazy.
My advice for you is to think about what you want, think about what kind of person you are, what you think you are and are not capable of doing or willing to accept, and then buckle down on one approach. But whatever you do, neither the 180 nor plan A can possibly be used to justify the position you are in where you are caretaking for your unremorseful, actively cheating wife while not providing any negative consequences for her abuse of you.
You mentioned several times you are looking at marriage builders as well as Divorce Busting. I think this is a big source of your issues and confusion, and the source of exasperation from the people on this board. You need to pick one or the other, these two approaches are diabolically different in intent and approach. You cant cherry pick and choose aspects you like from each and expect anything other than the mess you find yourself in.
In DB, you should be doing "the 180" in its entirety. Detaching yourself by building a new life outside of your wife for the benefit of improving yourself whether or not your wife decides to reconcile. In DB, you DONT snoop. You DONT expose the affair. You DONT interfere with your wife's affair. You DONT do anything for your wife. NO pursuing, NO dating, NO valentines. You do things for yourself, new actions, activities, and build a better life for yourself outside of your relationship. It about you growing into a better person, and maybe or maybe not your spouse will decide you are the better option and choose you, and if not, you are in a good position to move on anyways.
Marriage builder's "plan A" does involve tons of pursuing activities like actively trying to meet your spouses emotional needs. So, yes, date them and do valentines. BUT!, BUT the "carrot" of plan A doesnt happen without the "stick" of actions designed to attack the affair - snooping, documenting, massive exposure of your spouse and affair partner to friends/family/work, confronting the affair partner, and doing everything in your power to interfere with and stop the affair - blocking numbers, canceling internet, cutting of money and taking away the car. And in marriage builders, if they still choose the affair after all this, before you would find yourself in the cake-eating limbo you are in you would go into plan "B" which is complete and total separation and non contact from your spouse.
As best as I can tell, most of your actions look like you are trying to use marriage builder's "plan A" carrots and ignoring the "180" rules against support and pursuing, but then conveniently choosing to use a few parts of DB's "180" to justify not taking any plan A "stick" actions over her flagrant abuse of you to further her affair. And then you are coming on to a DB forum for feedback and driving people here crazy.
My advice for you is to think about what you want, think about what kind of person you are, what you think you are and are not capable of doing or willing to accept, and then buckle down on one approach. But whatever you do, neither the 180 nor plan A can possibly be used to justify the position you are in where you are caretaking for your unremorseful, actively cheating wife while not providing any negative consequences for her abuse of you.
OK, now I get why my head hurts everytime I read SM's posts. He is creating his own "approach".After DB, when my H was still with OW, sleeping on the couch, treating me like crap and I was still having sex with him...I didn' t come on here asking if that would bring him closer to me. I knew it was cake eating. I KNEW it was hurting me. So I didn't need to ask anyone if it was a good idea. It was a bad idea, I just couldn't do anything different at the time. So each time you come on here, SM and continue to ask if the pursuing/cake eating things you are doing with your wife will equal the ONLY result you are even willing to consider, I just shake my head.
I know I wanted to address all my H's concerns and "win" him away from the OW. I kept thinking, if he does leave, at least he'll leave with the memories of the "new" me. When that happened, you'd think "Yippee!!" But we separated 2 weeks later. He's still screwed up, and so am I. Now we are working on ourselves apart. H has said that he has seen big changes in me and knows that he can fall in love with me again. But I do know that I wasn't able to really, really detach until I finally stated what my boundries were for him to continue to live in our home. He has also said, he has found my ability to stand up for myself incredibly attractive.
You need to pick an approach, and then stick to it. You can pick and choice the parts you want. I haven't been around here very long. I hesitate to give a 2 x 4...but I have to. I do relate to you. If you get really honest with yourself, I believe you really haven't entertained the idea that your M might be over. You say you will be fine if it ends, but I don't think you truely believe that yet. Why do I think this? Because you are accepting the unacceptable. What your wife is doing is hurtful and selfish. If you could simply live with her like a friend, detached and working on yourself, you wouldn't be thinking about a V gift. You are so scared to set a boundry, because she may leave and be gone forever. That's what I was afraid of. I kept saying I'd be ok if it ended, but if I truely was, I wouldn't have been ok with my H having one foot in, and one foot out. How do I know? Because today, I am out of the 'result' business. I spoke my truth as I needed for me to be a sane and healthy person. You are totally in the RESULT business. The result being, you stay married at all costs.
No one is telling you what to do, just own where you are. EVERY post is about effecting some response in your wife. EVERY! If you want to truely DB, STOP pursing! Do all of sandi's suggestions, even though it SEEMS like they would do the opposite of what you think works. Lets look at the record. Your wife doesn't work. She somehow has the gas money to drive to OM's city, stays with him for 2 days, comes home and you take her to her favorite psychic's event... So simply because she isn't kicking you in balls and ignoring you, you think the things you are doing are working to get her to stay in the M? I certainly wouldn't be mean to the person who was financing my fling & lifestyle and showering me with stuff...
M: 9 yrs T: 13 yrs H:34 Me:35, S4, D2, S 7 months Dday 11/12-PA & multiple PAs Dbing 12/12 S 1/13 7/13 H moved back in basement. 8/13 #3 born 10/13 still cheating 10/13 He moves across country, I file for D
OH, big typos...YOU CAN'T PICK AND CHOOSE THE PARTS YOU WANT. CAN'T!!!!
M: 9 yrs T: 13 yrs H:34 Me:35, S4, D2, S 7 months Dday 11/12-PA & multiple PAs Dbing 12/12 S 1/13 7/13 H moved back in basement. 8/13 #3 born 10/13 still cheating 10/13 He moves across country, I file for D
But I do know that I wasn't able to really, really detach until I finally stated what my boundries were for him to continue to live in our home. He has also said, he has found my ability to stand up for myself incredibly attractive.
Very confused as to how to treat wife. No doubt everyone will say I need yo focus on me. I am focusing on me, but how I act towards my wayward wife during this phase (often called plan A) is critical. And I need pointers.
Some of sandi's db rules seemed to not work in bringing my wife closer. With more affecting and a little touch and I feel she is warning. This is why I needed to talk to laurie to clarify.
Went to the show saturday night with W. Had a great time. Then went home and talked about how we missed D3 who was spending the night at MIL.
Made my W laugh, had a good time, like the good old days.
You mentioned several times you are looking at marriage builders as well as Divorce Busting. I think this is a big source of your issues and confusion, and the source of exasperation from the people on this board. You need to pick one or the other, these two approaches are diabolically different in intent and approach. You cant cherry pick and choose aspects you like from each and expect anything other than the mess you find yourself in.
In DB, you should be doing "the 180" in its entirety. Detaching yourself by building a new life outside of your wife for the benefit of improving yourself whether or not your wife decides to reconcile. In DB, you DONT snoop. You DONT expose the affair. You DONT interfere with your wife's affair. You DONT do anything for your wife. NO pursuing, NO dating, NO valentines. You do things for yourself, new actions, activities, and build a better life for yourself outside of your relationship. It about you growing into a better person, and maybe or maybe not your spouse will decide you are the better option and choose you, and if not, you are in a good position to move on anyways.
Marriage builder's "plan A" does involve tons of pursuing activities like actively trying to meet your spouses emotional needs. So, yes, date them and do valentines. BUT!, BUT the "carrot" of plan A doesnt happen without the "stick" of actions designed to attack the affair - snooping, documenting, massive exposure of your spouse and affair partner to friends/family/work, confronting the affair partner, and doing everything in your power to interfere with and stop the affair - blocking numbers, canceling internet, cutting of money and taking away the car. And in marriage builders, if they still choose the affair after all this, before you would find yourself in the cake-eating limbo you are in you would go into plan "B" which is complete and total separation and non contact from your spouse.
As best as I can tell, most of your actions look like you are trying to use marriage builder's "plan A" carrots and ignoring the "180" rules against support and pursuing, but then conveniently choosing to use a few parts of DB's "180" to justify not taking any plan A "stick" actions over her flagrant abuse of you to further her affair. And then you are coming on to a DB forum for feedback and driving people here crazy.
My advice for you is to think about what you want, think about what kind of person you are, what you think you are and are not capable of doing or willing to accept, and then buckle down on one approach. But whatever you do, neither the 180 nor plan A can possibly be used to justify the position you are in where you are caretaking for your unremorseful, actively cheating wife while not providing any negative consequences for her abuse of you.
EXCELLENT advice everyone. So much information here that I would like to cover. I think my thread is about to lock, so I started a new one. Follow me...... =)
Me, H-34 now 38 W-32 now 35 T-13 now 18 years M-6 now 9 Daughter 3 years now 7 Bomb 11/27/12 - OM 1 year in house separation Reconciliation 12/2013. Healed now 2017
Leo, I understand completely now how you veterans come down hard on us noobs because that lights a fire under our butts =). I know you want to help me and I appreciate that more than I let up. But, I am a very patient person. Extremely patient. I can ride this out a long time.....maybe too long if you know what mean. I just have a lot of confusion as to how to act towards wife. It's mainly because of the mixed opinions I get. You do get a lot of mixed opinions. We're human. Even when we agree to use DB methods, we don't always agree when to use which tool or how to do it or when to monitor...
But Please don't explore something as contradicting to DB as exposure or the alternate marriage "saving" approaches, such as MB/MA's -(or your spin on them)- which I admit have their advocates. But they are almost the opposite of what is here. I don't want to re-hash that.
Whenever I see exposure to 3rd parties attempted in real life, it backfires more than anything else AND, for me, it risks looking like the revenge and punitive behavior that it usually is. But there are some universals in much of what we post. SUCH AS: We ALL say to GAL. Not at the expense of your d, but surely you need friends. I daresay no one will disagree with that.
So DO SOME GAL and don't make it extreme in quantity or expectation (As with the GAL...going from having NO friends to wanting to be a Big Brother, and take a class and volunteer for Habitat..all at once). Hey, I went nuts GALing but I didn't neglect my kids and I paced myself. Maybe one of your mottos ought to be "pace thyself".
And please, unlike the cooking class (a very good idea in itself), do NOT tell your wife about it to get a reaction. That's exactly why you told her.
Where is the mystery in that? How obvious can you be about your tactics, when you highlight them to look for her reaction?
GAL is for YOU to be happier and busier and NOT obsess and it's NOT to get a reaction from your WAS...by now that must be accepted by you & understood.
Some support being very tough while some have said this period before separation should be almost the best time of her life. what? Who said that^^ and where and why? I don't buy that...You're misquoting or misunderstanding or both. I don't even know what it means..."best time of her life" ought to be when she leaves you? Um, that can't be what anyone HERE said...WTH?
I think the debates are among those who advocate keeping the road home paved/smooth, (which means different things to us at different times)
those who favor tossing her stuff on the lawn, and or filing for Div,
those who want to see you do YOUR work first, and detach from what she does/says,
perhaps treating her as if she's a roomate who helps with your D's daycare, & those who want you to stop the controlling/analyzing/mind reading/manipulating and lecturing...
and those who think you ought to do a mixture of some of the above.
I'm in the last group-- First you must find a way of proving that marriage to you from this day forward would NOT be sex starved. And to HER it was sex starved - so you have to stop saying the reason she left was FINANCIAL...that's insane. OM has no money and does not make her "feel great" b/c he's poor.
You still hide from HER real complaints b/c you either don't agree with them (as if that's relevant) or b/c you are embarrassed by them. I get the latter piece but this is the place for honesty. Besides, what SHE SAID had nothing to do with money TO HER. It was all about having no passion, no quality time, no intimacy and she was plain as day saying it. She even said she'd have to fall in love with you again, (or something like that). Not a word about you earning more...or working more!
It's confusing to have you talk about financial matters as if they were a reason to HER, for leaving. Finances may well affect YOUR security or feelings as a man but that is something for YOU to work on and it's not HER problem...it's yours...
whatever affected your sex drive made it less than it was before. So there was a change in YOUR behavior towards her.
Plus, I have asked you about her weight being an issue, and whether you mentioned it. (She stated she wanted to work out and lose weight. Why?)
You ignored the question but clearly she worried that she was not attractive enough to you and you did NOT reassure her (enough) that your decreased sex drive was Not related to her weight gain or to her not being attractive enough to you. She even told you that OM told her she is "hot". This is something for YOU to handle if you reconcile. Until then you must be more forthcoming with compliments. Did you say you would now "compliment her WEEKLY"? SM, that's NOT a lot. IT's woefully inadequate and NO you do not have to compliment her when she returns from OM's. You could compliment how she is with D on a specific basis so it's not a generalized comment you keep repeating.
"I love how you get down on the floor with d to play. Getting at her eye level is exactly what she loves." OR "you sure know how to cook X just the way I like it, so thanks!"
Second, while you need to show that m to you would be better/different, it'd have to be done in a way that also sets limits on HER behavior. That is not about you controlling her; which is impossible; it's about how YOU react to her choices.
To protect your self respect. YES I concede it's very challenging.
I also know that there is a fine line we ALL have had to find between self respect and false pride...
Sometimes it's a blurry line OR a shifting line. "Am I setting a boundary or punishing or trying to 'teach a lesson'?" "Is this my wounded ego talking, or a healthy limit?" HOW do you do it?
You get a DB coach (who knows the whole story unvarnished and without your spin, just the facts) and maybe a good IC for you, and you dig deep and figure out where your motivation is coming from AND what the likely result of a given choice will be.
Third, you must stop being needy to her. She knows you are waiting & waiting for her and that you are NOT going anywhere.
The questions is,
What's there to motivate her to give OM up, when she does not have to? Think about that.
What's SHE got to lose by sleeping with him?
Why do you keep telling her your back hurts? Why tell her you feel sick when she's returning from a "date w/OM"? I don't know why she tells you this information. Can you explain to me why she does that? IOW
WHAT DOES SHE SAY, TO EXPLAIN HER PRESENT DAY CHOICES?
IOW, does she actually tell you (recently, not 2.5 months ago) that she "needs sex with OM" and then expects you... to do what?
You realize that when she said "it's not fair to ask you to wait", that while she did NOT ASK to do it, she just DID it?
I mean, she is in effect demanding that you just take this.
She's taking what she did not to ask for, (i.e., permission) as if it shows great restraint and fairness on her end. And you permit it, so permission has been, in effect, given. I can see how she'd believe this is tolerable b/c it is tolerated.
Without analyzing her to defend her, it's pretty mind boggling.
I accept that she is a good person doing a bad thing. I accept your version of her b/c you seem to have had a good enough m for awhile to justify it. But YOUR behavior is my concern...I don't get it.
I think I'd rather have my h lie to me about an OW of his, rather than shove it in my face and tell me that he's "coming home to take care of me" when I'm sick...after he was just with OW. Geez, No wonder you're sick.
I'd use the term "gaslighting" which you ought to look up. It comes from the movie "Gaslight" and in it, a h tries to make his wife go nuts so he can get her money.
He hides things and denies it, he turns off/on lights and pretends all is well when it's not.
See anything similar? And the competing with OM bugs me too. It strikes me as ultimate cake eating, and I'm not one to point that out a lot.
I get why you are trying to show her some positives, (you needed to) but in this case, it seems to me she's in the extremes of DB situations, in her brazen PA.
I'd be interested in laurie's take on that, if you can be accurate.
Please give me some examples of hypothetical situations and what you would say in response. I have tried to look for hypothetical dialogues on here but all I can find is when a vet is advising a noob on a specific question. Any ideas?
"Hypothetical dialogues" here? You thought WE had a script for you to use?
oh wow, SM...I will read more of your thread but that^^ made me laugh a little. SM, I know you are in horrible pain. I can feel your twisting stomach and your constant frenzied swirling questions among the confusing emotions YOU must feel...
But even now, I feel your rush for the fast fix & it hits me as a little funny.
PACE THYSELF...
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
