Thanks

[AnotherStander]

I'm still so conflicted about what to do. Draw my line and say that "friends" don't treat each other this way, or to just act like nothing has happened and play it cool (I will always have the information for future reference, of course).

I assume you're talking about her conversations with OM? Are the two of you still living together? If you aren't then you really have no say in who she sees or is talking to. But if you are, then if she's living at home while carrying on with OM then she's cake-eating and that is not fair to you. It's your decision on how to proceed, your choices are to say nothing and take a "wait and see" attitude to see if your changes will eventually make her decide to cut it off with OM, or you can confront her now. If you decide to confront her it's important to do it in a calm, loving fashion. You don't want to rant, rave and pitch a fit as that will just make you look jealous and angry (and it'll make it easy for her to decide to leave). But if you can calmly sit down with her and firmly tell her that she has a decision to make, then it will have more impact on her. Just understand, if you give her an ultimatum (IE, ditch OM or leave the house) then make sure you're willing to live with her leaving because she very well might choose that.

The man in me has a real problem not drawing the line because the terms I set forth last year have been breached (again) by both W and OM - a clear sign of disrespect.

If this is a boundary you previously set and she has breached it, then I would be inclined to have a discussion about it with her.

[PatientMan]

I assume you're talking about her conversations with OM? Are the two of you still living together?

Separated for 11 months. But after the 2nd BD last May I explicitly stated that it wasn't "okay" to be pursuing another man while she is M to me. That isn't fair or right or moral to any of the parties involved.

Of course, this entire time she has not made any promises as to her behavior or actions - intentionally, I think - for a couple of potential reasons:

1) She hasn't really "known" what she is going to do.
2) Not telling me what behavior I can count on from her alleviates her responsibility to her behavior which always creates the fallback rebuttal of "I never said I would or wouldn't."

This HAS created a "cake-eating" environment for her as she figures things out. She seems to bounce around from one extreme to another (based on her actions) depending on the day, which also seems like typical WAW behavior, so I understand the angle of NOT bringing this up, just acting "as if", and continuing to be someone only a fool would leave.

Just because I "understand" that, though, doesn't mean it's the best response, which is what I am struggling with. Also, not having any sort of "I will do this and not do that until this" type of statements by her...nothing that she can be held accountable for, has increased the stress and anxiety for me throughout the process...something I realize makes things more difficult, but have been willing to go through for her and us and the family.

More of a struggle is how to handle OM. Me contacting him or his W would, of course, stir the pot and potentially push W & OM closer together. BUT, I DO NOT know what their relationship status is. Bringing this up COULD undo the work I've done to be a man only a fool would leave and that I'm moving on regardless. It could also thwart reconciliation attempts between OM and his W, one of my only assets in OM avoiding my W. BUT, I don't know their situation either.

There are several potential scenarios that currently could be in play here:

1) My W and OM could be planning for their escape routes together.
2) W and/or OM may have told the other that things are over.

Among the events I can't reconcile are the communication between the two and comments from my wife to me, the latter of which I am inclined to believe, perhaps foolishly.

Situations and reasons aside, I need to do what is "right" and let the chips fall where they may. I just don't know which action, or lack of action, by me is the most right or the least wrong.

If you decide to confront her it's important to do it in a calm, loving fashion. You don't want to rant, rave and pitch a fit as that will just make you look jealous and angry (and it'll make it easy for her to decide to leave). But if you can calmly sit down with her and firmly tell her that she has a decision to make, then it will have more impact on her.

Yes, of course. This has been a main focus of mine since reading DR and finding this forum. I do not respond emotionally to her...she does not affect my emotional state. She's in the castle and I'm at a picnic...

Just understand, if you give her an ultimatum (IE, ditch OM or leave the house) then make sure you're willing to live with her leaving because she very well might choose that.

It wouldn't be necessarily be an ultimatum from me from a M perspective as that is already headed down the D path now that she is paying lawyers and we're filling out paperwork. It's more of a "I'm disappointed in finding this out and I feel betrayed all over again. As difficult as this is, I decided I DO want to be friends with you, but friends don't sneak around and deceive like this. When you want to be friends and respect each other in a mutually proper way, let me know."

Maybe that IS an ultimatum, but if I were to say something along the lines of the above, then I would definitely follow through with it. There's always the point that drawing a line in the sand and saying, essentially, "this was too much" actually shows me sticking up for myself and demands respect, which could be healthy for any potential R in the longer term.

Or it could push her farther away...but maybe just in the short term .

It's entirely possible W and I have operating under different assumption sets regarding the boundaries of our current R, but sneaking around is a clear indicator that someone feels what they are doing is wrong.

[PatientMan]

I have also learned through this most recent "find" that as badly as I want to reconcile, I have some major trust issues that would have to be worked through for our R to be mended. I don't think that is unreasonable, but it is there.

I have also realized it for some time, but if W were to ask me to move back in (not something I think there is even a remote chance of at this point), I would be extremely hesitant to do so...a lot because of me and my trust issues and also a lot because I think it's best to take things slow and not confuse the children. They're hurting enough and don't need to have their hopes and lives jerked around any more than is already taking place.

If given the opportunity, I want to take things slow. The old marriage, though not final, is dead. Date again. Grow together again. Be sure of things. THEN move home.

[AnotherStander]

In reading your response to my comments I honestly think you're in a very good place You have a good grasp of DB'ing principals and it sounds like you are applying them correctly.

More of a struggle is how to handle OM. Me contacting him or his W would, of course, stir the pot and potentially push W & OM closer together. BUT, I DO NOT know what their relationship status is. Bringing this up COULD undo the work I've done to be a man only a fool would leave and that I'm moving on regardless

I've read several threads here where the H (not sure why, but it always seems to be men that do this rather than women) decided to contact/ confront the OM and it has always ended up blowing up in their face. Their W gets exceedingly angry that they intervened, and they view it was controlling, manipulative behavior which is often why they are escaping the M in the first place. It is fine to confront your W about it, but it's best not to contact OM. Just try to keep in mind that OM is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself.

I have also learned through this most recent "find" that as badly as I want to reconcile, I have some major trust issues that would have to be worked through for our R to be mended. I don't think that is unreasonable, but it is there.

Absolutely, I'd venture that ALL of us have that bridge to cross if/ when we reconcile. The Piecing forum is filled with threads where the WAS returns and the LBS is suddenly struggling with trust issues. That's maybe the biggest challenge for the LBS in piecing. It's not insurmountable, but it isn't easy to deal with either.

If given the opportunity, I want to take things slow. The old marriage, though not final, is dead. Date again. Grow together again. Be sure of things. THEN move home.

Exactly right. The old timers in the Piecing forum offer much the same advice!

[PatientMan]

I told OM that he is not to be in any contact with my W while we are still married. That was last January, after BD#2. I spoke with him again a few months later after BD#3 (it was discovered by OM's W that they were communicating again). Both times I was more than cordial, though I am certain he was frightened of me.

He either:

1) isn't threatened by me (not likely)
2) has some sort of assurances from my W (very possible)
3) thinks he can get away with it (after being caught twice, this makes no sense, but is possible)
4) isn't thinking clearly

It could be any combination of those and perhaps even something I can't think of.

A friend reminded me that my faith doesn't allow for me to respond to him the way in which I would prefer. My human failings sometimes don't care about my faith.

W seems to be responding positively to the continuance of "acting as if" and me sitting on my picnic blanket turned away from the castle she has barricaded herself in. This probably means nothing and is an amicable mirroring of treatment.

We had a good talk Sunday night. In an hour I did most of the listening and only regret saying two things, neither of which were terribly bad. They were just "caught up in the moment" slips in judgement (from what I learned here) that I won't over-analyze as having more impact than they likely did.

AnotherStander, I very much appreciate your responses and time for my thread.

Just try to keep in mind that OM is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself.

I DO recognize that, and I recognized that very early on. However, as so many understand, it is not a benign symptom.

Right now I am concentrating/trying to concentrate on being a man only a fool would leave. Right now I'm not ready to ring any bells that can't be un-rung.

[PatientMan]

We talked again tonight. What she is saying isn't exactly what I want to be hearing, but just her opening up to me makes me feel better for whatever reason.

• She's been crying a lot lately.
• She reiterated that she doesn't "feel" it. That she wanted this version of me for so long until she just didn't anymore, and she's stuck there.
• She is afraid she's going to wake up one day and realize she has [effed] everything up and it's too late to fix it.
• She knows she is hurting me and that is hurting her.
• She isn't "okay" without me there in the house, but she isn't "okay" with me sleeping next to her either. The nights she wants me to sleep over she convinces herself not to ask because she realizes she is just delaying the growth she needs to go through to be okay on her own.
• She HAS to be able to be okay on her own. She can't allow herself to feel as helpless as she did before.
• She is worried about the kids...about having to sell the van and moving out of the house and into another new district without my income, so she asked if I would help by keeping my name on the lease and liens.

I do feel like a lot of that would quickly wash away if she just met a nice guy. I've heard/read it isn't easy for a woman with so many kids to find a good husband, but that wouldn't be the case for her.

She has been nothing short of great with regards to allowing the girls and I to have as much time as possible, mostly at the house, but I feel more and more like the temporary, stop-loss Dad just keeping things in order until the permanent solution arrives. (This is one of the more difficult things to handle for me, emotionally.) I feel like I'm her friend, for now, while she needs one and that I'll be tossed aside - not rudely, but understandably - when circumstances permit. With how badly I hurt her, I continue to be okay with this being the possible outcome. I'm just trying to be there for her in whatever manner I can...trying to rebuild trust in whatever ways I can. I don't know what else to do.

I do know my brain turns to mush when I am around her so it's much easier to develop a plan that it is to implement it.

[PatientMan]

Does anyone have any input on my thoughts of splitting the tax refund 50/50? Thoughts:

• I have the money ear-marked for a few family-centric items (savings, roof for jointly owned property).
• It's a couple of thousand dollars, so the amount is certainly significant. I'm by far the primary wage earner, but that only takes into account income and doesn't reflect familial contributions, which is where I arrive at just splitting 50/50.
• I understand not paying for the divorce, but since we are headed down that path it makes sense to at least offer her the check. She can always hand it back.
• A little money in her account might de-stress her some. If money is in the way of any of her decisions right now, then perhaps this will allow her some clarity.
• I don't want to be or appear as her money controlling overlord.

I hate talking myself into handing over several thousand dollars when there are family items I would like to fund with that money, but I think offering is the right thing to do and may reveal where her mind is at right now.

(That sounded kind of manipulative to type that last part, and that isn't why I'm doing this. I guess it's a potential secondary effect of taking this action. I don't at all think she'll treat me any differently with a little money in the bank, but it may be informative if she did.)

[PatientMan]

I went ahead and gave her the check for half. It was the right thing to do.

Also from last night, just remembering the way she worded things:

• She said that sometimes she just wants to put a tv back in the bedroom, put on old movies, and laugh with me. But that wouldn't be happiness now, it would be happiness from memories.
• She said she just let go of everything. She wanted me to come back and she wanted who I am now (after 1st BD) until she just didn't anymore...she just let all that go.

She also told me on Sunday that she is still hurting and has some resentment towards me. I take that as better than indifference and also what I have suspected all along even though she claimed to be past all that. Maybe she thought she was past all that or maybe she just didn't want to admit it...I don't know and I'm not going to try and figure it out.

Good night all.

-tmd

[PatientMan]

My brain is funny. I am okay with the logical approach to all of this...up UNTIL I'm actually around W. Then chemicals in my brain start firing all weird and I turn into a pathetic pile of goop. I've tested this recently and realize I have about a 90 second window from when I arrive at the house to when I notice (let's call it) "the stupidness" start to have an influence. And "the stupidness" can wear off as quickly as when I leave the house and am walking out to my vehicle. I'll think to myself "WHAT WAS I JUST DOING?!?"

I'm having trouble detaching. From very early on in my ordeal I had this feeling that we were going to have to REALLY separate before this gets resolved. Not me just living somewhere else, not her feeling like I'm waiting for her to come back around, but both of us feeling like "it's over" and moving on before there's a chance of anything. I know that Michele's book warns of self-fulfilling thought prophecies, and this may or may not be one of those. Maybe it's just my way of keeping some shred of hope alive in my mind, even after "it's over." I know in my head that I will be okay regardless of what happens. I know that more and more in my heart too - depending on the day you ask me, though.

I think both W and I have an issue with pushing to the point of putting the M completely behind us. The strategist in me realizes that, historically, she is more apt to push towards the D process when OM is in the picture. So perhaps the best 180 would be to actually force a "real" separation while I figure he isn't around. That's the first time I've thought of that and so I'll have to give it some more brain processing before I pull the trigger on that gun.

(Here comes a bit of a ramble)

I'm pretty sure I know what my roadblock is: I just don't want to be a man that doesn't love her this much. And as soon as I type that I think that it isn't good to love somebody else so much that you fall apart without them. With others I've given the oft used analogy of this feeling like W put her hands into my chest and ripped my heart clean out. And everyone is telling me I need to figure out how to "move on" and "be okay". Well...ummm...I kind of need that heart to pump blood to survive...don't tell me I can do without it.

And I realize in my head that this isn't okay and that it's best/healthiest to grow into someone that isn't so dependent. (And goodness, I've made such strides in this department.) I guess maybe I'm worried that if I figure out how to move on and at some point she does want to reconcile, that I'll be at a point where I say "no." And I both feel like 1) I owe it to her to not do that and, to be honest with myself, 2) I just don't want to take that step. I don't WANT to see her differently. I guess the only person I'm fooling is myself. I'm just making this more difficult on myself.

Anyway, I had my UN changed. Thought the old one was juvenile (though I'm not sure how "juvenile" a >20 year old album reference can be) and that I should change it to a reminder of what I want to be.

[PatientMan]

Not much of an update. I've been REALLY busy, but my thoughts are still consumed by her and our situation. I was reading adinva's thread and found this from Accuray:

My biggest fear going through this process has been that if our marriage ends in D, that I will not find another person who I will feel as attracted to as I do to my W.

I have so many similarities to so many people's situations on here it is eery sometimes, but this is definitely one of my "fears", if that's what I want to label it. I have been completely in love with my wife from Day 1, and I have never thought or day-dreamed about what life would have been like with someone else, or if we had never gotten together, or if we had broken up at some point. Other women just have never been on my radar. I'm not saying I don't recognize an attractive woman (I am a functional male being ), but for me there has always been her...and then everyone else. I never had a serious relationship before her and have never considered one since. I really don't even know if other women are attracted to me. At various points in the past I have been told I was being "hit on" and I had absolutely no idea...my brain just doesn't function in a way that receives those signals. I never wanted "out" of my marriage - though my actions did a poor job of reflecting that for a while - and I never thought that "we" - the combined unit of "us" - was breakable (a catastrophic error in judgement; I used that error as my crutch while I refused to fix my own problems).

And I've done enough reading to know there are many here in my situation. It's just difficult to detach. I know I must, I just don't quite know how yet. At times I think I am figuring it out and at other times I still feel lost.

My approach is still the same.

• I am focusing on being someone only a fool would leave. W occassionally brings up D talk to discuss details, but I am at least past the point where this throws me off my game. It isn't "fun" to talk about, but I'm not going to let it ruin me or my day.
• I never brought up contact with OM. I don't see the upside. Even if I decide that is the line and it has been crossed, I will simply act that out instead of telling her. She'll eventually get the message and I do not need to fuel her fire or muddy up the path home by instigating a known disagreeable confrontation.
• I'm working on me. I need to be the best person and father I can be regardless of W's choices.
• Act "as if" (emphasis a lot of the time on "Act")
• Never give up. Have hope, but not expectations.
• Give her space, but don't abandon or withdraw from her. (tough balancing act for me)
• Do not allow her to control my emotions (doing well on the outside, not so well on the inside)

I feel like I know a lot of what I am supposed to be doing, it's just a matter of doing it. I do think I'm afraid to detach and find out who I am without her. I talked about my roadblock in my last post and I'm kinda stuck there. I have been pondering whether I should call a DB coach. A seemingly stiff monetary price for a few phone calls (and I'm worried I won't be able to fully contextualize my situation in such a brief time), but it's a terribly small pittance in the currency of my marriage, my wife, and my life. Of course, maybe I am still unhealthy in my ways of not being able to let go. This is all so confusing sometimes.

Anybody reading this?