Thanks

[PatientMan]

Thank you all so much for the feedback. If anything, it just reinforced my desire to be cautious with medicine that is manipulating chemicals in my brain. I don't know why this gives me the heebie jeebies so much, but it just does and I'll be sure to bounce the suggested medicine (Cymbalta) off of my GP as well just to get a second opinion.

(Here comes a segue between the two topics of AD meds and the GAL inquiry.)

Overall I am, and keep in, pretty good shape (relative to the majority of Americans). I lift weights 3-4 times per week and do "cardio" 1-4 times per week, all depending on the macro-level goals of whatever phase I am in (gaining muscle, losing fat, or maintenance). I'm meticulous with my exercise and diet and have always had this in my nature, though my physical health slipped from MY normal after we had our second daughter. I was working full time, a full time student, and had a family. Something had to give and it wasn't going to be work, school, or family, so what was left was exercise, though I still stayed in relatively good shape.

So for a few years I went in and out of phases where I would exercise regularly and practically quit altogether. (I'm also pre-wired to need to do something 100% or I feel like I'm wasting my time...something I recognize as a trait to be worked on.) The autumn before BD I recommitted myself to getting back in shape, which for me meant going from decent shape to pretty darn good shape. Immediately after BD I knew that working out was going to be a continuing mainstay for me. I REALLY enjoy it, I want to be healthy, I welcome the challenges, it makes me feel strong, and I also learned through my various episodes of depression over the years that forcing myself to do certain things, even if I didn't want to, actually helped me shorten the depression period and kick-start me back to a better mental state. Consistently going through the motions by hitting the gym and going to church, as examples, worked for me.

(Side note: For any readers who struggle with depression, I encourage you to try finding your "healthy mental habits" and force yourself to go through the motions. I never left the gym after a workout or church after a service and said to myself, "I wish I hadn't gone." I know what works for me may not work for you, but it's worth a shot! )

So my very long way of getting to the point where I answer the "what are you doing to GAL?" question is now over. What am I doing to GAL? That's tough. Early after the S (and before I read DR) I realized moping around by myself was a bad plan. I encountered a couple of problems in response to that:

• I am not a social person and do not keep a large account at PatientMan's Bank of Friends. I prefer to keep a small number of friends close.
• My very best friend has always been my wife, so that's out the window.
• All my other friends were married with kids, so I didn't really have anyone to do stuff with as they were where I wanted to be: at home with their families.
• I don't drink and don't care at all for the bar scene.

Now those all seem like excuses avoiding the answer of: find/meet new friends. Which brings me to my next set of bullet points:

• I work between 45-60 hours per week. And not the 45-60 hours per week that people I know quote by counting when they leave their house and when they arrive back at their house. I mean a legitimate 45-60 hour week, exclusive of lunch as well. I'm up by 5 or 5:30 every morning and at work by 7 every day.
• In addition to that I am in grad school, which means after work two nights a week I'm in class until 9:30, not getting back to my place until around 10.
• When I'm not doing any of that I want to spend as much time with my girls as I can.
• One night every weekend I have a date with one of my daughters. It rotates so I get a date every week and each one of them gets a date every four weeks. The one on one time is important and special to all of us, and it's important to me to show them how they ought to be treated when they go on dates for real when they are older...like 30.
• On the other weekend night I have the girls sleep over at my place. It's small, but they need to feel welcome there and W needs to have some decompression time as well (my words, not hers). She is a quasi single mom. Her choice, yes, but I am still sensitive to that.

So I don't know what the answer to the GAL is right now. My schedule is really busy, but perhaps I'm just making excuses. Maybe I could look for something through the church (I did attend a men's Bible study, but I just didn't seem to mesh real well with the other men in that group.) I tend to be pretty picky about who I associate with, but extremely loyal to those I pick.

I have gone to see a movie every couple of months with a friend here or there, but that is extremely irregular. I recently have thought about attending more of the events my class at school puts together, but most of those are late in the evening, at the bar type get-togethers that don't appeal much to me. I've attended a couple and put forth some effort, but it just isn't easy for me to click with new people, especially people I feel I don't relate very well to.

On nights I don't have class I am at the house at least until I tuck the girls in. Usually W will ask me to stick around and watch TV with her. I don't mind this as we get along fine, but since reading DR I've done more leaving and not hanging out, I just don't do it every time. We're both lonely and I'm not saying it's the best or right thing to do, but I think we both get something out of it. As I've spoken to before, maybe I'm just in her life in this capacity now until she finds the suitable replacement. I just really have a hard time not being there for her if she needs somebody. I did that once already and lost her. I do realize I could be approaching this entirely wrong and letting my feelings rationalize behavior that doesn't coalesce with my goals, so I am certainly open to criticism.

There is something to detaching in a sense of giving her less attention and more to the kids. Before DR I noticed a few times that if I was struggling with being around her I would spend almost all of my time with my ladies (4 D's), and this would prompt a response from her akin to "pulling her in" as described elsewhere on this forum that I've read. I think we're past that point now, though...at least as far as she is quicker to recognize when she is giving me attention she doesn't normally give me, which prompts an internally fueled retaliatory response from her where she pulls back away from me in some fashion. Again, this is all just anecdotal observation and doesn't perfectly predict behavior; it's just the overall trend. And I don't let this stuff bother me anymore anyway.

Wow, I know that once I get to writing I can be a bit verbose, but I didn't intend to be this long-winded. Congratulations to anyone who made it this far!

Thank you all for your responses. It means a lot.

-PM

[labug]

So for a few years I went in and out of phases where I would exercise regularly and practically quit altogether. (I'm also pre-wired to need to do something 100% or I feel like I'm wasting my time...something I recognize as a trait to be worked on.)

Good insight!

I'm just now catching up on your sitch...you have that much out of the home commitment and 4 young daughters. How the heck did you have time to even try to have a R?

As I read through I didn't see mention of what your W's complaints are. If she doesn't have any (which we all do) what do you think you need to change? What could you have done better?

I was had depression off and on for several years and it did lots of damage to my marriage. I went through the usual ways we hide from our seeming frailties, it's not that bad, it's not really depression, it's not me, it's them, I should be able to fix this, I was ashamed...None of them productive to getting better. A great IC, lots of reading, help here and I'm in a much better place.

About your W's sneaking around, what were you hoping she would do? I'm not saying she's right to do that, just wonder where your mind is on that?

What was her family life like?

[PatientMan]

I'm just now catching up on your sitch...you have that much out of the home commitment and 4 young daughters. How the heck did you have time to even try to have a R?

Everything 100%!

As I read through I didn't see mention of what your W's complaints are. If she doesn't have any (which we all do) what do you think you need to change? What could you have done better?

I believe that everything hinged on me drinking to cope with depression. Had I not drank I would not have turned to whoever that person that looked like me was. That person is dead now, but I am still living on the consequences of his actions. I do not mean this as a way of absolving my responsibility, I just recognize who I really am and HE isn't ME. (In a way he is still pulling strings from the grave.)

So obviously I don't drink, but that won't stop me from improving myself in other areas as well:

• PATIENCE. Patience with the kids. Patience with myself. Patience with life in general.
• Stop being such a hard [butt] all the time. I'm hardest on myself, which I realize isn't healthy, but that also means what I think as going "easy" on others (because I'm not as hard on them as I am on myself) isn't really "easy" as they see it.
• Be the best example of a father I can be. Live what I teach my children.
• Not be completely dependent upon her for my happiness.

I was had depression off and on for several years and it did lots of damage to my marriage. I went through the usual ways we hide from our seeming frailties, it's not that bad, it's not really depression, it's not me, it's them, I should be able to fix this, I was ashamed...None of them productive to getting better. A great IC, lots of reading, help here and I'm in a much better place.

I am glad you are experiencing some relief.

About your W's sneaking around, what were you hoping she would do? I'm not saying she's right to do that, just wonder where your mind is on that?

Not contact him until our marriage was final. I believe that she hasn't slept with him, but just finding out they have been in contact in whatever capacity (I have no idea) really stung. I told her it wasn't okay to be pursuing another man while we are married. To him I said no contact while she is my wife. W at least has an out by what opinion she has maintained all along (getting a D, though her actions don't coalesce with her talk given that we're 15 months in and still nothing signed and to a L). He has no valid excuse.

W has been very careful as to what she has NOT said to me. I mentioned it previously in my thread, that she has literally given me NOTHING solid I can use to stand on with regards to her. I understand why, but it doesn't make things any easier.

What was her family life like?

Her mother moved across country when she was 5 and turned into an aunt-type figure, though she likes to pull the Mom card when it suits her.

Her dad drank too much, but is a good man and has a good heart. He and I have always gotten along, and he has toned down his drinking considerably since all the kids grew up and left.

She felt stuck with her alcoholic father, and she just couldn't take that I was doing the same thing. That she had to take care of me that way too...put up with that all over again. I, and we, were supposed to be better than that. She moved away from home and in with me after HS to get away from that, and it just became too much to bear. She didn't want the kids to look at me the way she looked at her father. She begged me to stop, told me her feelings were changing, but nothing could get through to me.

...Until "that day", and everything, EVERYTHING hit me all at once, and I've been scrambling ever since.

I can't change what I did. I wish I could. All I can do is be the best man I can be.

And hope.

Whether you have lived to tell about it or even just watched Shawshank Redemption, you know that "hope is a dangerous thing. It can drive a man insane."

[movingon-1968]

PM,

My PCM transitioned me from Pristiq to Cymbalta in mid-2011. I was on it from July 2011 thru late January or early February 2012. It worked well. I began to wean myself off of Cymbalta in late December 2011. I went WAY too fast. I didn't experience any 'brain zaps' as they are called, but, I was definitely moody.

One side effect of the time frame I used was due to what else Cymbalta can treat - fibromyalgia. Once I went completely off of it, my body ached for weeks - everywhere. This was due to the fact that all I had were capsules and just started spacing out the days that I took them. THIS IS NOT THE CORRECT WAY!!! You can buy empty capsules and divide the contents of the capsules up - which is what most doctors I've talked to since recommend. All of the symptoms (aches, pains, moodieness, etc..) were gone by late May, which is when I started to actually heal...

Again, I am not a doctor, this was just my experience and some info from research I have done. I wish you luck with whichever path you choose.


Brian

[Grizz]

"Hope is a dangerous thing. It can drive a man insane."

AMEN!!!!!

(Love that movie)

[labug]

Hope is a dangerous thing.

Patient, I read (skimmed) your other posts and saw nothing about drinking. That puts a different spin on things. I'm not surprised at her family life. The picture all begins to make sense now, doesn't it.

Are you in a program?

About her interactions with the other man, there are things we do in life that we know we shouldn't but we do them because they make us feel better. Many times they aren't good for us and we wish we could stop. We beseech all that's holy, bargain with ourselves and lie to ourselves "Only one more time can't hurt."

Can you have empathy for where she is right now?

I usually don't comment too much about affairs because that's not my sitch but I did have an EA years ago. It was all about the fantasy and things that my H wasn't doing for me at the time.

Only you know where your line is. But don't set boundaries or give ultimatums for the purpose of changing her behavior. That's not what boundaries are for.

Is she in IC or a 12-Step group?

[PatientMan]

Are you in a program?

No ma'am.

During the first BD she was "done" and did not ask me to stop, but I decided then that I was "done" as well (with drinking). After that a couple of friends held me accountable by asking me regularly, to my face, if I was partaking in any of that. They realized that once I moved into my own place it would be really easy to hide. Those people don't ask me anymore, not out of laziness or complacency or because they don't care, but because they know me.

I won't be drinking again.

There is no upside in it for me and the risks are too great on what is a very slippery slope for me. Really, I see it as the decision of whether to drink or not has already been made and I'm just living it out. I am definitely not 'not drinking' because of W or to try and win her back. That is small and fake and selfish and stupid and doesn't help me be who I want to be.

Can you have empathy for where she is right now?

Yes ma'am. I am naturally empathetic, instinctually putting the feelings of others above my own. This is intensified for the people I allow inside the perimeter of my circle of trust. Now anyone can say that, and I don't need to prove anything, but perhaps this example will help demonstrate that.

A year ago when I was sure things between W and me were over and OM was working things out with his W and family, I realized how bad it made ME feel that I thought my wife was getting her heart broken again, even if it was from OM. It seems like such a screwed up emotion to have...it would seem that should be what I WANT, but it didn't feel good at all. I just felt bad for her and it hurt my own heart to know she was hurting in this fashion.

That's just an example, but I am certainly carrying the weight of her pain around as well. I put that on myself, maybe too much, but it's definitely there.

Only you know where your line is. But don't set boundaries or give ultimatums for the purpose of changing her behavior. That's not what boundaries are for.

I completely agree. This isn't to manipulate the situation at all.

Is she in IC or a 12-Step group?

No ma'am.

[PatientMan]

PM,

My PCM transitioned me from Pristiq to Cymbalta in mid-2011. I was on it from July 2011 thru late January or early February 2012. It worked well. I began to wean myself off of Cymbalta in late December 2011. I went WAY too fast. I didn't experience any 'brain zaps' as they are called, but, I was definitely moody.

One side effect of the time frame I used was due to what else Cymbalta can treat - fibromyalgia. Once I went completely off of it, my body ached for weeks - everywhere. This was due to the fact that all I had were capsules and just started spacing out the days that I took them. THIS IS NOT THE CORRECT WAY!!! You can buy empty capsules and divide the contents of the capsules up - which is what most doctors I've talked to since recommend. All of the symptoms (aches, pains, moodieness, etc..) were gone by late May, which is when I started to actually heal...

Again, I am not a doctor, this was just my experience and some info from research I have done. I wish you luck with whichever path you choose.


Brian

Thank you (and everyone else) for your perspective. Meds may be the "best" option for me, but it's reenforcing to hear that it's okay for me to be a little gun shy of these types of pills. I just want to be careful and take the best course of action available.



-PM

[labug]

All the ma'ams, are you from the south, military, or expressing great conviction?

The act of drinking, although a major factor, is only a part of the issue. My H also drank way too much and when the sons and I said it's time to quit, he quit. Boom!

But he didn't work on the WHY of his drinking.

Something we didn't talk about, the why. He quit and I thought life would be rosy. Not so.

I couldn't fix him, I could ask him to quit drinking and he did but the rest is up to him.

I attended AlAnon and learned a lot. I also attended AlAnon Adult Child and got even more.

Just a cautionary tale. Working on the why is important, no matter how you do it

I was just curious about your W and how she's dealing with things. She has to come to the place where's she ready to dig through the baggage she's carrying. It's scary.

[labug]

One other thing, empathy doesn't mean you carry another person's pain but that you understand it. It's important to be able to emotionally detach.