DBing, European style

[Papa4Life]

I've been reading this forum for quite some time now and I think it's great to read that I'm not alone in my sitch (although I wouldn't wish it on anyone) and that other, more experienced BDers are so generous with offering advice and solace.

I suppose it would be best to start from the beginning. I met my wife, who is Dutch, through her brother when I came over from my native New York for a European adventure in '96. Her intelligence, poise, kindness attracted me to her immediately. A few days before I was to leave, she expressed her interest in staying in touch with me and after some talking and laughing, we kissed for the first time. We agreed to stay together and to see where things would lead. I went back to finish school and she started her job (where she is still employed). After a few more back-and-forth visits, we decided that we wanted to give the relationship a chance and that I would relocate to the Netherlands. I arrived on October 2, 1997 full of hope mixed with trepidation and uncertainty about being a stranger in a strange land.

From the start we found that we were both a bit hot-headed and that there often came a point where communication was no longer effective because things were too heated. Nevertheless, we worked past those issues and I was able to gradually assimilate to the European lifestyle. I first got my residency permit, I learned to speak fluent Dutch, my driver's license, and after jumping through the usual bureaucratic hoops and hurdles, we got married and I got my Dutch passport. Our son arrived a year later. Throughout that time, our arguments remained fairly heated at times, and I had a great deal of difficulty with settling down here, a fact that was complicated by the fact that I was suffering from undiagnosed depression and ADD at the time. I also had a rather difficult childhood, one marred by repeated divorce, constant relocations, abuse, bullying, and loads of other fun stuff. My wife's parents, on the other hand, are still married and devoted to their children and she only lived in two different places before leaving for college. It's so alien to me.

Right from the start, W made it clear that she wanted to have a career and I wanted to spend time with the kids and be involved in their lives, unlike my father, who ran out when I was two and never really took an interest in us. I love participating in my kids' lives, but I can now say from experience that anybody who thinks that a stay-at-home has it easy is sorely mistaken. I worked 4 days a week when my son and daughter were small and that was tough enough, but when I started to work as a freelance translator around the time that my daughters were born, I found that combining working at home with taking a majority of the responsibility for shuttling the kids around and taking care of twins was a challenge unto itself. Also, one of the twins was born with a cranial disorder called craniosynostosis that required two operations and repeated visits for a special helmet to fix the shape of her head. (She's fine now, BTW. She's got her dad's sense of humor and she and her sister are like two little old ladies - they're inseparable and they chatter like gossips all day long, they're absolutely delightful. My kids are the apple, the tree, and the orchard of my eye.)

We've now got four children, including twin 3-year-old daughters, and we fight frequently, mostly over how often my wife wants to go out and socialize with friends and to participate in activities with work where she is now in a position of some importance and that places serious demands on her time and energy. There are times that she would call home and say she would be home an hour late because a meeting took longer than expected. Sometimes that would be on a day that I was home with the kids, they have activities that require me to play dad's taxi, plus the house is a disaster, kids are shouting for their dinner and I've got a project that a client wants back yesterday and I would just lose it. I'm ashamed to admit that I more than once I shouted at her over the phone. It got to the point that she would be afraid to call to let me know that she was going to be late or to let me know that she had yet another dinner with work. Plus -- and again I'm not proud -- when we would fight there were times that I would throw things across the room or slam doors. But it never felt as if I was doing these things TO anybody, it was just a way to vent the frustration I felt. I also began to push her away in order to avoid that painful sense of frustration, and part of how I did that was to say things like I hated her and that I wished I could get out. How I wish now that I could just have made myself hear how painful those words were, even if I didn't really mean those things. Now, I think it's important to also point out that my wife also has anger issues. She has terrible PMS and is seeing a psychiatrist (finally) to deal with her issues, and she can be very impatient with the kids. All of that combined to a very difficult situation, one that was complicated by the fact that I knew that when we worked together on things, we were able to accomplish so much. At one point we promised each other that we would stay together no matter what. How I wish that she could still have faith in the person she was when she said that.

Cut to Christmas Eve of last year. After a difficult few weeks, my wife and I had a long talk and at one point she said, would you be happier if you just moved into your own apartment? And that was like a bolt of lightning: No way! That's not what I want at all! I realize now that what she was saying was that she was so unhappy that she wanted out, but I looked at it like an opportunity to turn things around. To be honest I made all of the mistakes MWD warns against: I hugged her constantly, complimented her, told her I loved her endlessly... I thought maybe we had taken a step in the right direction. Then came the bomb... I took W out to dinner and she told me that she was no longer interested in making an emotional commitment to this marriage. I was and am heartbroken. Despite our problems, I care very deeply for my W and part of the reason I would get so defensive when she wanted to go out (apart from the fact that I desperately needed to GAL) was that I loved having her home with me and the family. A week later, she informed me that she wanted to stay together as roommates for the sake of the kids. I implored her to come with me to therapy (which she has agreed to) and to give things time. Shortly thereafter I picked up DR and I've been reading and consulting with it and this forum religiously since. I've been trying various 180s and I've got the GAL down pretty well. The only problem are the emotional ambushes that I experience from time to time: there are so many things I want to say to her and there's so little that I have to say that a) W hasn't heard before, and b) would make an ounce of difference in how she feels.

Last week was tough. After a few months of agreeing to give thing time and after a few weeks in separate BRs (is BR for 'bedroom' a thing in DB? I've got 'SBR' for 'separate bedrooms' in my signature, but I might have to change that), a series of events led me to believe that things had turned a slight corner. Then, after W had been away for three days for a management training program and came home full of enthusiasm and positivity, when things turned to R (kicking myself now that I brought it up, albeit indirectly), she immediately shut down. Said her feelings hadn't changed and still didn't think we could work things out. Anyway, after that and seeing how inflexible she is with the kids, I started to get the sense that my situation was hopeless and I confronted her and at one point got so upset that I knocked over a chair. I regretted this immediately. I'm working on anger issues in therapy and I don't seethe over things the way I used to, but I know I've still got work to do. She still says that she has been scared in our marriage, but I've NEVER threatened her physically or done any kind of menacing. I suppose slamming my fist on the table was enough. I know it was enough.

After things cooled down I told her that I was in too much pain and that I was almost tempted to just say I want out now then to hope that her feelings would change down the road. I asked if she felt the same way and she just said no. Still, she went to the therapist today and when she came home, after some very mild, indirect asking (we usually ask how things went when the other gets home from the therapist), she told me that she had fully intended to start winding things off now and moving towards divorce. I stayed calm and listened to her, looked her in the eyes and kept a PMA. I told her that what I said about preferring to get out was the culmination of a number of factors, but that now I felt that I was once again capable of giving her as much time and space as she needs. I don't want to say that she seemed 'relieved', exactly, but I could tell that our talk helped her step back from the ledge a bit.

So, after heading outside for a smoke (how stupid is that? I'm a vegan who runs four days a week and, oh yeah, smoke cigarettes to deal with the stress!), I asked her about what her psychiatrist had mentioned to her about my medication (I'm being treated for my depression and ADHD and feel fantastic, present sitch excepted), and she mentioned how strange it was that after what she said, that I was still being positive and just getting on with things. I told her, there are no bars on the door, you're not shackled, you can leave whenever you want. Let's just take the pressure off each other for now and see how things go. I don't think she wants to admit it, but I think that there is still some hope that I can win back my beautiful Dutch tulip . Then, I came upstairs to my office (which is now in my bedroom, my former office now being occupied by W) and finally decided to tell my story in this forum.

Sorry for the length of this post. I can assure you that brevity will be a much higher priority in future. Thanks for reading and any feedback, criticism, advice, constructive scolding, etc. would be immensely appreciated. Thanks to everybody working on the forum and to MWD for making it all possible.

[MrBond]

Sorry that you find yourself on here. You won't find a greater group of people dedicated to getting your M back on track.

So you have red DR or DB, correct?

[Papa4Life]

I sure have, and I don't think I would have made it this far without DR and this forum. I'm so grateful to everyone who posts their stories and takes the time to offer support and advice. Now that I'm learning the skills that I need to have the best chance possible to improve my M and to control my anger, I am dedicated to internalizing them and putting them into use every day.

[Papa4Life]

So, my W and I just got back from the therapist where she told me in no uncertain terms that she wants a divorce. Last night she mentioned to me that she wants most of all to be friends with no emotional attachments at all. All of this was so herd to be, but I'm using the LRT and so I validated her feelings and I told her that I just wanted her to be happy. I also tried to keep a PMA at the therapist, and I think even she was surprised by how positive I was being. After we left my W came and asked for a hug and at first I said I didn't think that would be a good idea, but then I relented. She was talking in the car on the way home much more than she has been in the past -- of course about telling the kids, finances, the living situation -- so I think that's a good thing. I did tell her that I did not want to divorce, but that I support her in finding what will make her happy, and I mean it. I'm just going to keep DBing and keep up the 180s and hope for the best for my marriage and my children. Oh yeah, and me.

[Papa4Life]

I've been having a tough time these last few days. Although I present only a positive face towards my, let's face it, STBXW, I am reeling on the inside. I am trying to keep Michele's advice in min and I always ask myself whether what I am about to do will drive my wife away or bring her closer. Sometimes she seems willing to talk, but I've learned now not to --EVER -- bring up R talk, because it shuts her down like ripping the plug out of the wall of a Donkey Kong machine (sorry, I'm a child of the 80s). She seemed almost excited after we left the therapist. She even asked me for a hug, and even though I initially told her that was a bad ide, I quickly relented. Hey, it's a hug from the woman I love! Maybe the last. But I won't let her see that it's bothering me. Like the AA people say 1DAAT.

[Papa4Life]

I could REALLY use some help from the veterans or other LBSs right now. I have FINALLY embraced the idea of letting go, acting as if and LRT. I no longer initiate convos with W, I'm treating her like a casual acquaintance at work and doing 180s. Some of my 180s include NEVER giving her grief when she wants to go out with friends or work, taking more responsibility with the kids' activities, doing lots of cleaning and wash at home, and going out more with friends. I feel as if I might even be doing TOO much, because she told the therapist it seems 'superhuman'. I don't know if it is working, but I'm going to stick with it because it makes me feel good about myself to know that I'm making an effort.

One thing that bothers me is how my wife insists on asking where I'll be and who I'm going with. Whenever she calls to say she's going out after work I say 'OK, have fun. See you later or tomorrow!' If she asks me where I'm going or where I've been, I give a vague "Out :)" and she gets irritated. Should I be more open?

Also, what do other people do about family gatherings, holidays, vacatins etc? A few times she's gotten cross with me because I went with her somewhere and accidentally enjoyed myself too much, haha. What is a good policy for dealing woth this?

Please, I'm in the 59th minute of the 11th hour and I could really use a few tips. Thanks.

[Papa4Life]

So, I have been processing the events of the last few days and I really think that I need to set some effective goals. I read through some of the posts over at the workshops thread and I think I'm starting to understand how to effectively put together some doable goals. My 180s seem to have made an impression with W so maybe I can start focussing on some goals.

1) i will make my wife feel comfortable and at ease talking with me with NO R talk and without feeling pressured.

Many times over the past few weeks, W and I have agreed to work on the finances and household administration together, but when the time comes, she will be involved in something else such as preparing for a meeting at work and I don't want to push the issue by asking her to join me. The most open she has been with me was last Thurs./Fri. when she told me she wanted a D and that nothing had changed. She says she wants to be friends and that she does not want an emotional R with me. Maybe aiming for friendship is a good goal....for now.

2) W will invite me to an activity with just the two of us.

This one is a long shot at this point and I suppose hinges upon the success of #1. Perhaps if we can become comfortable by developing a friendly relationship then it will be easier for her to spend time together.

3) W will invite me to spend her Bday with her and the kids and go on vacation together.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, there have been times when W invited me to an activity with the kids and her family, we had a great time, only to have her turn around and say that perhaps I shouldn't have come because she didn't want to give people the impression that things were okay. I am inclined to just decline to do anything together, just to give her space and not feel like a fifth wheel. But if she asks, I think maybe I should go, just to make it clear that it's what I want. Confusing.

I suppose I'll have to sharpen these and maybe add some more. I think it's important to start working on this, because she's already talking about making suggestions for the situation leading up to and after D. Oh, wait! I just thought of something:

4) Wife will initiate contact to work on finances/planning or for informal convo.

This seems like a good point to work on. Therapist urged me NEVER to ask how she's feeling (meaning R talk, or asking for feedback). I NEVER ask her questions anymore (which has also led to my no-pressure approach when it comes to working on projects). And I always end convos first. I have, however, pointed out several times recently that I still wanted to reconcile, but then again, I also pointed out that I am moving on with my life, with or without her, and that seemed to close her down a bit. So, based on MWD's advice, I'm not going to do that anymore because it's counterproductive.

Wish I could do phone coaching, but it's just soo beyond our budget right now. Maybe I can save up for the next couple of months...

[AnotherStander]

I no longer initiate convos with W, I'm treating her like a casual acquaintance at work and doing 180s. Some of my 180s include NEVER giving her grief when she wants to go out with friends or work, taking more responsibility with the kids' activities, doing lots of cleaning and wash at home, and going out more with friends. I feel as if I might even be doing TOO much, because she told the therapist it seems 'superhuman'.

That's similar to the way my W felt about my 180's. They see all these changes and their inclination is to think they are a trick to get them back after which we'll revert back to old ways. That's why it's important to make your 180's CONSISTENT and give your W plenty of time to start to appreciate that they're real and not tricks. It really takes months before that even starts to happen. My W told me recently that initially my 180's actually made her mad, because she wondered if it was so easy for me to change why I hadn't done it before. She finally came to realize that I didn't change before because she never asked me to and I never knew I needed to. But it took her months to realize that.

I don't know if it is working, but I'm going to stick with it because it makes me feel good about myself to know that I'm making an effort.

Good, that's the right spirit. And it more than likely is working even though she may not acknowledge that.

Whenever she calls to say she's going out after work I say 'OK, have fun. See you later or tomorrow!' If she asks me where I'm going or where I've been, I give a vague "Out :)" and she gets irritated. Should I be more open?

If it's irritating her then yes, be more open with her. You don't have to tell her everything, but something more than "out" might make her less angry, LOL!

Also, what do other people do about family gatherings, holidays, vacatins etc?

The kids come first. You should continue any activities that make things less stressful on the kids, assuming your W is willing.

[Papa4Life]

Thanks, Stander. I appreciate the feedback and tips.

That's similar to the way my W felt about my 180's. They see all these changes and their inclination is to think they are a trick to get them back after which we'll revert back to old ways.

I find this pretty amusing: what would I have to gain? She would just walk out again!

If it's irritating her then yes, be more open with her. You don't have to tell her everything, but something more than "out" might make her less angry, LOL!

See, this might just be "more of the same" behavior on my part. I used to always feel as if everything needed to be completely tit for tat, 50/50 right down the middle. So, in other words, if it felt like W was asking something of me, I would feel that she needed to compensate for my sacrifice later. For example, if W went shopping and I stayed home with the kids, then she had to pay that back by giving me time later. I mean, that sounds reasonable, but I admit that sometimes it could go a bit far. So, if I feel like W is doing her thing without being compelled to inform me of her whereabouts, then I feel (perhaps unjustly, I'm now seeing) that I shouldn't be required to volunteer that information myself. The thing is: part of LRT and going dark is "being a bit mysterious". So that was also what I was trying to do, but maybe it's pushing W away instead of bringing her closer. She says she only wants to know where I am in case of emergency, but I think that's a specious argument because I -- like every other human being on the planet -- have my cell phone with me. Maybe I should be flattered that she is concerned about my whereabouts.

The kids come first. You should continue any activities that make things less stressful on the kids, assuming your W is willing.

This is a very nice sentiment, and I appreciate it Stander. Maybe to assuage my sense of insecurity I should just say, "Look, if you invite me -- and if I have the time -- then I'll assume that you want me to come along, and if you don't really want me along then you'll let me know that." I do indeed want to give my children every possible happy day that we can give them. Assuming indeed that W is willing...

[Papa4Life]

I've been reading many other posts on this BB and I think I'm really starting to get a very strong understanding of the DB process. The whole D situation really threw me emotionally -- like the feeling of getting knocked down by a few strong successive waves at the beach: You're gasping for air, don't know which way is up, and there's no sunlight to guide the way. Not to belabor the metaphor, but I realize now that I was swimming down instead of toward the surface, so hitting rock bottom, while unpleasant, at least help me gain my bearings and realize what I've got to do.

After some advice from AS to an earlier post, I decided to just be open about where I'd be and with whom and when I'd get home. As AS pointed out, if it's irritating her it's not bringing her closer to me. She actually seemed relieved when I told her that I'd be more open about it. I know for a fact that my wife has always been worried that I would be unfaithful to her, and I never would do that to her. Still I think there's some residual feeling there, so the thought of my dating or 'hooking up' is still somewhat anathema to her. I have to be honest: I feel like this somehow works in my favor. If W still has feelings of possessiveness about me, perhaps it's a sign that she realizes what she would potentially be giving up. Not that I'm such a prize, but I think our relationship was one of tremendous benefit to both us, but perhaps moreso for her because I chose to put my career on the back burner to take more responsibility with the kids (perhaps as compensation for a rotten childhood: I know, I know: daddy issues? here's a tissue).

I also read another post from AS where he talked about the problems with MC. I have to agree that W really perks up when the MC suggests SBRs or separation. It's like the MC is validating her negative feelings. I think I'm going to confront the MC with these concerns when I see her tomorrow.