DBing, European style

[Papa4Life]

Oh yeah, one more thing, as I've mentioned, I've been doing my best to build up my PMA through socializing a LOT more, spending more time with kids, and just genegally being more upbeat and cheerful. I guess you could say that I'm trying to "fake it til I make it." I even old W and MC that I'm feeling more positive, and that was moments after W had told me she wanted a D last Friday. What I meant was that I feel like I'm ready to move on with my life with or without W (obviously preferably 'WITH' W). I mentioned that again last night and she said something like "Well, that makes one of us." I wonder what she meant by that. I of course validated her feelings immediately without bringing up the fact that I wanted to stay together and work on our M. Still, I can't help but wonder whether this means that she has doubts about wanting a D, or if she is just focusing on the inevitability of breaking up and how hard it will be on us all.

W also knows I've been talking to my mom back in the States and she asked yesterday what she had to say. TBH, my mom has a lot of anger towards her right now. The first time I spoke with her about W wanting D, I was distraught and I blamed myself for everything that had gone wrong. As time went on, W expressed an interest in speaking with my mom and hearing what she has to say about the sitch. My aunt (who is actually the ex wife of my late uncle and who is more of a great friend than an aunt) also sent an e-mail to W describing the pain and misery of D for kids and parents alike, but W felt ill at ease talking with her, which is ironic, considering that W has probably spent more time with aunt than Mom, and she's the godmother of our S. At any rate, when W asked what Mom had said, I told her honestly that she knows hw harmful D is and how she "wouldn't wish being a single parent with four kids on my worst enemy". She speaks from experience: she had four kids and struggled for years trying to provide for us. But I stopped short of telling her that Mom refused to speak to her because she has "nothing to stay to her right now." It's the anger talking and I can't think what purpose it would serve anyway.

[Papa4Life]

Hi all. Is it okay if I treat this thread as a kind of journal? At least from time to time? That is to say, is it okay that I'm almost more writing for myself?

Anyway, here goes: W and I are talking about what the situation is going to be like if/when we D. I told her that she's probably going to have to realize that it will likely have an impact on the amount of time she spends at work and W became extremely belligerent. She loves her job and the thought of having to make compromises when it comes to her job is a bitter pill for her to swallow. I excused myself from the conversation because she started yelling. But I think this is going to be a sore point for both of us, especially if we do move ahead with D. I'll keep you posted.

[AnotherStander]

W also knows I've been talking to my mom back in the States and she asked yesterday what she had to say. TBH, my mom has a lot of anger towards her right now.

Oh boy. Well we were just talking about this in Suckerpunch's thread. There is potential for disaster here. You should NOT be talking about your sitch to mutual friends and family. You should ONLY discuss it with people who don't know your wife and have zero chance of ever running across her. For the reasons why, go to Suckerpunch's thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2330136&page=6

And read from post 2333048 on, but ESPECIALLY read 25's post (2333583).

Is it okay if I treat this thread as a kind of journal? At least from time to time? That is to say, is it okay that I'm almost more writing for myself?

Of course, that's what many of us do.

W and I are talking about what the situation is going to be like if/when we D.

Print out Sandi's DB tips (sticky at top of forum) and read them at least once a day. Do not EVER bring up D, R or M talks! EVER! If W brings it up then just listen and validate. But do NOT engage in these discussions.

I told her that she's probably going to have to realize that it will likely have an impact on the amount of time she spends at work and W became extremely belligerent.

Of course she did, because you are PRESSURING her. You are trying to reason her into staying. That does not work!! Pressure has the opposite effect, it pushes them out the door.

I excused myself from the conversation because she started yelling.

So you started pushing her buttons, she yelled and you walked away. This is not the kind of stuff that will bring her back!! Stop the pressuring, stop giving her reasons to yell, and instead of walking away when she gets angry try to get her to talk about her emotions and validate them. "You sound angry, is that how you feel?" "Darned right I'm angry!!" "I'm sorry you feel so angry, can you tell me what I did to make you feel that way? I want to work on this to stop it from happening in the future."

Converting angry conflicts into peaceful conflict resolution is the primary 180 that most troubled couples should strive for.

[Papa4Life]

So, there have been a few ups and downs over the last few weeks. If you've read through thisnthread, you'll know that W and I are still in SBRs and W told me in therapy last week in no uncertain terms that she wants a D and wants to be friends and co-parents. As hard as it was to hear, I kept a PMA and validated her feelings and listened carefully to what she said. I've also been reading around on this board, and I've seen some posts saying that therapy can actually hurt. That really struck me because W has been saying from the start that we've already tried therapy and it hasn't worked, but now I'm wondering if therapy isn't right for us -- or at least not this therapist. My W says she likes to have people ask her questions so she can work through her feelings and in that way reach a conclusion about what she wants. That just makes me think that maybe the therapist suggesting things like SBRs, separation and D is just validating her feelings of wanting to get out of the M while giving her 'permission' to disregard the many factors that weigh on her decision, like the kids, her job, the fact that I'm willing to make changes and try again... I mentioned this to the therapist and she was taken aback at first. I told her, I think it just does more harm than good if she only hears that a D is an oportunity for her to be happy. What about the fact that four kids are involved and a D would destroy a family?

Another think I've concluded is that 'going dark' is not working in my situation. Communication -- or the lack of it -- was a major problem in our R and giving her complete space, I believe, just seems like more of the same to her. I think engaging her, validating her feelings, being upbeat, and listening, listening, listening is the better approach. And it has yielded some results, even though W still seems intent on at least S, the way she talks about it seems as if she is having doubts. I was talking to her about the book "5LL" last night, and I think she was impressed by the fact that I acknowledged that she is a person for whom actions speak louder than words. I know how important her work is to her and I acknowledged that working that hard, in part, was her way of showing her love for her family.

But speaking of work, we're now writing out plans for our ideas of how we would arrange things if/when we separate. I've pointed out that I will need to work more hours and that she would have to take on more responsibility for the kids. Well, she didn't like to hear that one little bit, but she gets angry when I bring it up. I gently avoid an argument when she gets heated up about it, but her work is one thing that she does not want to make sacrifices with. Sad to say, but I wish she could be that serious about the impact a D would have on our kids.

[Papa4Life]

Oh boy. Well we were just talking about this in Suckerpunch's thread. There is potential for disaster here. You should NOT be talking about your sitch to mutual friends and family. You should ONLY discuss it with people who don't know your wife and have zero chance of ever running across her.

That's a good point, Stander. My major problem is that I live thousands of miles away from my family and almost all of my friends are also friends with my W. but, I think I will put an end to this.

Do not EVER bring up D, R or M talks! EVER! If W brings it up then just listen and validate. But do NOT engage in these discussions.

See? This is exactly my problem with CT. The therapist has us making up a plan for the sitch after the D and there's no real way for me to get out of it without canceling the appointment (which, as I mention in another post, I suggest to therapist that that's what I am considering doing). I mean, if the W starts moving towards D, how do you put on the brakes? I suppose I should just let her make her own decisions.

Of course she did, because you are PRESSURING her. You are trying to reason her into staying. That does not work!! Pressure has the opposite effect, it pushes them out the door.

Damn, that's not wanted I wanted to do at all. But she even said she felt pressure from me and the therapist on this point.

So you started pushing her buttons, she yelled and you walked away. This is not the kind of stuff that will bring her back!! Stop the pressuring, stop giving her reasons to yell, and instead of walking away when she gets angry try to get her to talk about her emotions and validate them. "You sound angry, is that how you feel?" "Darned right I'm angry!!" "I'm sorry you feel so angry, can you tell me what I did to make you feel that way? I want to work on this to stop it from happening in the future."

Converting angry conflicts into peaceful conflict resolution is the primary 180 that most troubled couples should strive for.

Thanks so much for this reality check, Stander. This is exactly what I needed to hear. I knew I was moving into dangerous territory with this shift in my DB plan, but I didn't realize I had overshot the mark by so far. I just get so anxious when she talks about making steps towards D and I want to try anything to stave off that awful day... This is also another instance where the therapist was wrong, because she suggested taking a time out when discussions become to heated, but, you see, my W NEVER initiates a timeout. It's always me, and I know I feel that I'm doing it with the right intention. But I think your alternative is much more productive and healthy... You've given me a lot to mull over, Stander! How do you set somebody as a buddy on this forum?!!?

[Papa4Life]

Sometimes, I have to wonder (like the great Neil Young before me), "why do I keep on effing up?"

The last few days have been like the huge dips on the roller coaster after a few weeks of the click-click-click incremental climb up the mountain that I thought we were making over the past weeks.

As I wrote in the past couple of posts, last week, W looked me in the eye at the therapist and said she wanted a divorce. Even though I made it clear to her that I validated her feelings and said I wanted her to be happy, I also reiterated that I thought we should stay and work on the relationship. The next day I told her that I didn't think we should see the therapist anymore because it's doing more harm than good (as the great 25 confirmed, she uses our failed attempts at counseling in the past as proof that we've "tried everything"), as evidenced by the fact that the therapist has made suggestions such as SBRs, separation, starting work on a D plan, all of which W immediately pounced on: it validates her feelings while allowing her to ignore her culpability for the negative consequences!

At any rate, one of the points that we are going to address in the D plan is the point of dating. I've been reading a lot in SuckerPunch's thread and I realize now (again, based on the feedback from Stander and 25) that this is a slippery slope. Okay, full disclosure: one of the reasons that I brought up dating was because I know that W has always had a high level of anxiety regarding my cheating on her (which, other than a very regrettable dalliance while we were having a long-distance romance before I came here to Europe, I have never done) and I knew that bringing up dating as a consequence of our being separated would give her reason to reconsider her choice. Anyway, she's been having an EA with a co-worker (her assistant manager, a man 20-something years her elder) and I believe she is seeing him... no wait, I know it because she's said as much, albeit apparently with a second assistant manager in tow. She always clams up when I bring up his name so I try not to mention him because I think it's a bit of a power trip for her.

Rats! There is just so much to say.... Ahhh, the heck with it, let me just get it all out in the open and don't sweat it if nobody but me ever reads any of it.

Okay, SO! A few weeks back, my wife asked me where I was going to be when I was getting ready to go out. I pointed out to her that I very rarely knew where she would be when she went out with work or with friends, and that I think it's unfair/unrealistic for me to keep her informed of my whereabouts. I have to admit, this is just more-of-the-same behavior on my part, because I always weigh what is being asked of me against what she is getting in return and if it seems out of balance, I get irritated. It all goes back to the cornerstone argument in our marriage: my wife works 4 1/2 days a week in an office. I work at home, and I am responsible for bringing the 4 kids to school/daycare and picking them up, as well as cooking dinner, and oh yeah! Running a one-man translation company. When W goes out with work or friends, this means that I have to get all four kids ready, bring the kids to school, take care of the twins all day (if it's my day at home with the twins), pick everybody up -- including friends if they have a playdate -- bringing one or both of the oldest kids to sports, making dinner, cleaning up, bringing them to bed, and then, oh yeah! Going back to work doing translations. It just bothers me that the W refuses to acknowledge that I have a great deal of responsibility at home. She just says, you can work at night and on the weekend! Great, who doesn't love to work at night and over the weekend? As more than one person has pointed out, I'm probably suffering from "housewife" syndrome -- but that's understandable, IMO, because we consciously chose to reverse the traditional roles because I wanted to be there to see my kids grow up and my wife LOVES her career. But any time anyone brings up the whole "housewife syndrome" thing, she becomes extremely agitated. And, look, I try (admittedly unsuccessfully at times) not to bring up R, M, D talk, but when we bring up things at the therapist, this is a point that comes up. There is an angry, selfish part of me that looks forward to seeing how she's going to arrange this when/if we separate. She seems to expect that I'll continue to take on the brunt of the childrearing, just as I'm doing now, even after we D! But as I've pointed out, because I've put my career on hold, I'm going to have to focus MUCH more on my work in order to be able to support myself. She has even acknowledged that she will very likely be required to pay palimony, and hey, my ego might object to accepting payments, but rationally I can only admit that I probably deserve that support, since I really was a major factor in enabling her to advance as far as she has in her career. But that's neither here nor there right now.

Today, I asked W what her plans were for Easter weekend. She pointed out again that I could come to her parents' house on Easter Sunday, but that she would prefer that I not come along on Saturday when she and the kids would be spending the night with the parents. I told her that I would have preferred not to be alone on Easter weekend, but I thought maybe I would go out with friends. She then mentioned that she had plans for next Friday. Oh yeah? With whom? Se refused to respond, and that once again brought up the issue of informing each other where we would be. After the last disagreement on this point, I told her that I no longer had a problem letting her know where I would be (was I worrying that she would start to clam up too?) in case of an emergency with the kids. I brought up the point of dating (idiot! idiot! idiot!) and told her that I didn't think I would feel right dating because I still believe in our marital vows and dating would only complicate things unnecessarily. She stated that she couldn't see the problem with dating, giving the circumstances, but that she wasn't dating now. I think mentioning this was the right thing to do, based on the responses I read on SuckerPunch's thread, but it hurts SO MUCH. After a few minutes talking to her, I was so upset that I said to her, "Why are you so mean?!? I know I've made mistakes in the past, but why do you still feel so little compassion that you can be so mean to me?!?" And then walked out... Rats. Some people take 2 steps forward 2 steps back. Me? I take 2 steps forward, and then 2 MILES back! I've got to stop shooting myself in the foot like this.

See, this is what I think I'm still missing when it comes to DBing: everything about it seems to be geared towards validating W's feelings, detaching, getting on with your life. But what happens if you DB yourself right into a D?!? If I just keep acquiescing with her every wish, won't I just back myself off the cliff? Phew... this just so unBELIEVably hard... I guess I just don't get it yet. I thought I was doing the right things, but now I'm seeing that I might need to get reading again... Or get ready to hire a moving company and a decorator...

Where have you gone other DBers? A disheartened man turns his lonely eyes to you!

[theUF]

Okay, full disclosure: one of the reasons that I brought up dating was because I know that W has always had a high level of anxiety regarding my cheating on her (which, other than a very regrettable dalliance while we were having a long-distance romance before I came here to Europe, I have never done) and I knew that bringing up dating as a consequence of our being separated would give her reason to reconsider her choice.

I'll have to come back and read your whole thread, as I don't have the time right now. This stood out and I thought I'd comment on it while it's fresh in mind.

Does she know of this dalliance? If she does, never minimize it like you did there ^^^
Also, if I understood you right, by bringing up dating you'll boost her anxiety and force her to reconsider? I'm willing to bet you'll increase her resentment as well.

This is hard, sad, hurtful I know. But don't try to force it.

[AnotherStander]

That's a good point, Stander. My major problem is that I live thousands of miles away from my family and almost all of my friends are also friends with my W. but, I think I will put an end to this.

Well you've got us and you can rest easy at night that we won't be talking to your W A lot of people do that, they pour everything out here and then act "as if" everything is fine with their friends and family. That is perfectly fine to do if you can't network with friends locally that don't know your W.

See? This is exactly my problem with CT. The therapist has us making up a plan for the sitch after the D and there's no real way for me to get out of it without canceling the appointment (which, as I mention in another post, I suggest to therapist that that's what I am considering doing).

Traditional MC is not really geared towards saving the M. It's geared towards validating the WAS and making S and D as smooth as possible. It's a terrible strategy and long overdue for being tossed in the bin, but there are still far too many C's out there that were trained up like this and are still practicing. Your best bet is to end MC as soon as possible.

I mean, if the W starts moving towards D, how do you put on the brakes?

By never bringing it up or talking about it. Many WAS's will discuss it a lot early on (and you're still early in your sitch) but will never pursue it. Unfortunately most MC forces D talks, so MC can have the nasty result of accelerating a D.

This is also another instance where the therapist was wrong, because she suggested taking a time out when discussions become to heated, but, you see, my W NEVER initiates a timeout. It's always me, and I know I feel that I'm doing it with the right intention. But I think your alternative is much more productive and healthy...

Time outs aren't always bad, but the centerpost of DB'ing is doing what works and not doing what doesn't work. It doesn't sound like the time outs are working, so give the listening/ validating a try for a few weeks or a month and see how it goes

A few weeks back, my wife asked me where I was going to be when I was getting ready to go out. I pointed out to her that I very rarely knew where she would be when she went out with work or with friends, and that I think it's unfair/unrealistic for me to keep her informed of my whereabouts.

Don't overthink/ overexplain! Next time just tell her "I'm going out for a while." If she asks where then tell her "the pub" or "running" or whatever it is. If she asks with who tell her "some friends". Offer up a minimal response every time, but don't withold info. Remember, DB'ing is representing that you DON'T CARE where she's going or what she's doing, and you DON'T NEED to explain yourself to her. Because you are living your life with or without her.

I work at home, and I am responsible for bringing the 4 kids to school/daycare and picking them up, as well as cooking dinner, and oh yeah! Running a one-man translation company. When W goes out with work or friends, this means that I have to get all four kids ready, bring the kids to school, take care of the twins all day (if it's my day at home with the twins), pick everybody up -- including friends if they have a playdate -- bringing one or both of the oldest kids to sports, making dinner, cleaning up, bringing them to bed, and then, oh yeah! Going back to work doing translations. It just bothers me that the W refuses to acknowledge that I have a great deal of responsibility at home.

Well first let me say that I really do admire your efforts, it sounds like you are a fantastic dad! You're probably right that your W doesn't appreciate what you're doing. She probably doesn't even realize how much work what you're doing is. And it's unreasonable of her to expect you to shoulder the entire load while she does whatever she wants. That said, you seriously need time away to GAL. I would suggest trying to get her to take over now and then so you can do your own thing.

I told her that I would have preferred not to be alone on Easter weekend

Needy/ clingy.

, but I thought maybe I would go out with friends.

Strong/ independent!

She then mentioned that she had plans for next Friday. Oh yeah? With whom?

Don't ask. Next time counter with "Oh good, because I'd like to make plans for Saturday. So how about I watch the kids while you go out Friday and then you do the same while I go out Saturday?"

I brought up the point of dating (idiot! idiot! idiot!) and told her that I didn't think I would feel right dating because I still believe in our marital vows and dating would only complicate things unnecessarily.

Pressure, pressure, pressure! Remember, you need to act as if you're going to live your life with or without her. Don't say things like this, it just makes you look clingy, like you'll wait around for her forever while she does whatever the heck she wants. Be mysterious. If she asks if you're dating then don't say "our marital vows are too important to me" because she doesn't give a rip about your vows. Just say "not right now". Make her wonder about you. "What did he mean? Is he thinking about dating? Might I lose him???"

I said to her, "Why are you so mean?!? I know I've made mistakes in the past, but why do you still feel so little compassion that you can be so mean to me?!?"

This isn't PMA and it isn't acting "as if" everything is fine. It's OK, just learn from the backslides and don't do them again!

Me? I take 2 steps forward, and then 2 MILES back!

LOL! Well at least you recognize the mistakes. Work on this, try to be VERY slow to respond and just don't ever initiate. Think before you talk. Think "what would 25, MrBond, Stander, etc. tell me right now about what I'm about to say?"

[Papa4Life]

Oh, great and wise guru Stander! Just say the word and I am healed!

Seriously, though: thank you, thank you, a thousand times thank you for setting me straight with a rap on the knuckles with a ruler when, looking back over my posts, I so desperately needed one. It's the whole "emotional ambush" thing, where sincerely wanting to live by the DB principles is one thing, but putting them into practice is something else entirely. "The mind is willing" and all that.

The MC is out on her ear, as far as I'm concerned. I'll still see her for individual therapy, because she has helped me with my depression, but I'm not going to let her sabotage my DBing progress (thank you, Sandi, for your incredible 37 rules).

I've just got to practice patience. I'll admit, it's never been my strongest attribute, but I'm going to dial it up to 11.

Thanks.

[Papa4Life]

"Any day now, I shall be released"

This whole Easter thing really is a thorn in my side. W says I can come to the family Easter brunch on Sunday, but she's taking the kids tomorrow (Saturday) and spending the night with the family, but that there's no "reason" for me to be there. I'm going to go out with some friends on Saturday, so that feels like a pretty good response. But I don't think I can go to the brunch on Sunday. Y'see, the W tells everybody in her family every grizzly detail about this whole situation and it's just getting really hard to look them in the eye. My SIL, for example, came over last Sunday to pick up our nephews who had spent the night with S10 and D9 and suddenly W came up with the idea for the two of them to go out for lunch. I, of course, immediately agreed to watch all the kids and said "have fun", knowing in the back of my mind what the topic of conversation would be. Now, before they went out, SIL was chatting with me and talking about her new practice. But, as you probably have guessed, as soon as they get back, SIL can't even look me in the eye. I don't even want to THINK about what she told her. And worse, I don't want their pity. That's even worse than condemnation.

Another development: W is taking a management course that's made up of 4 sessions lasting three days and two nights and spread out over 4 months. Of course, when she's gone, yours truly is left with all of the responsibility for the kids. Or worse, she calls in the in-laws to help take care of the twin D3s. They're not getting any younger, and any time she 'helpfully' calls them to take care of the kids while she has something to do (usually with work), and I can tell they fell put out. They ask when can they leave, they don't do a lot with the kids, etc. Plus MIL just found out that she had had a heart infarction, and she complains of very low energy. I know that part of her post-D plan relies on them to pick up some of the slack, and I am starting to worry about them. ANYWAY, the thing about the course is that it's almost like a religious retreat. They really try to dig up a lot of deep personal issues and the W always raves on and on about the course when she gets home. It makes me think, well, if you would only spend a fraction of the energy that you spend on that course working with me on our marriage, we would solve our problems in no time!

But, the reason that the course has bearing on my situation today is because I know for a fact that she has made an appointment with one of the guys from her course to come to her job and discuss... I dunno.... management-related things that they talked about at the course. Today, she mentioned to me that she planned to work all week next week while the kids are home from school, and, oh yeah, that she's going out on Friday night. Hmm. So I asked, with whom? (I know, I know: detach!) and she refused to answer. This after I get the third-degree every time I want to go out and do anything. Anyway, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce that she's going out after work with the dude from the course. I texted her that I didn't mind her going out with her assistant manager (the old dude she's had an EA with) or some guy from the course, but I think it stinks that she's going to do that while leaving me at home all day (on a day that technically she's supposed to be with the kids so that I can work) and all evening so she can go out with some guy and be secretive about it. I know, I know: I've got to give her space, but it's a lot to take in at the moment and I needed to vent. This is really low, in my opinion.