DBing, European style

[AnotherStander]

Oh, great and wise guru Stander! Just say the word and I am healed!

ROTFLOL!! That brought a smile to my face for sure

The MC is out on her ear, as far as I'm concerned. I'll still see her for individual therapy

Yes, IC is a great idea even though MC isn't. By all means keep doing that!

But I don't think I can go to the brunch on Sunday. Y'see, the W tells everybody in her family every grizzly detail about this whole situation and it's just getting really hard to look them in the eye.

There are 3 versions of your sitch- your version, her version and the truth. Her relatives are getting her version. DO NOT react by trying to give them your version. Instead, react by showing them a content, happy, polite, charming you. They'll listen to your W and develop this picture of a big, scary, mean, ugly you. But then if you're around them and you show them nothing but PMA and good cheer, they'll start to question your W's version. If they ask about the sitch just say "W and I are getting along great, but we both need some time and space to think things through and that's what we're doing. She's a really great person and regardless of what happens I have nothing but respect and admiration for her." Do this and at least some will start seeing YOU as the solid, confident spouse and HER as the flaky one. Don't worry about what she is saying to them, you have no control over that. Just endeavor to show them something else!

And for heaven's sake, DO look them in the eye and do it with a confident smile!

[Papa4Life]

Oh, this is just TOO good not to post immediately. With all due respect and love to MWD, it appears that Confucius beat her to the punch be about 1300 years or so. Here's a quote I came across:

When it is obvious that the goals can't be reached, don't adjust the goals, adjust the action steps.

Couldn't have said it better meself.

[labug]

You asked about this on another thread.

Developing Detachment

[Papa4Life]

Darn these emotional ambushes! Just when I feel I'm FINALLY starting to get the hang of the DB process, the trapdoor falls out from under my feet. Let me start from the beginning...

So, in the last week, ever since the MC had W look me in the eyes and tell me she wanted a D (grr...), I was keeping a PMA and GALing all over the place. I also mentioned to W that I was planning to end MC sessions and she was suprised. As I'm pretty sure I've mentioned, I feel that what the MC is doing is making it as easy as possible to S and D, without trying to work to find solutions to our problems, or at least giving W confidence that the problems are workable and make it clear to her what the consequences of a D are. We left MC with a plan to make a plan for what the situation would be like leading up to and post-D (sorry if I'm rehashing stuff I've already written before). That plan is like a sword hanging over my head, because it seems like anything I write, the W will simply accept as 'what I want', whereas... Well, you know...why else would I be here? Still, W wants to "at least take this step, either with MC or some other independent third party".

W had a few work-related outings this week, and I happily took care of things at home. It irked me that her assistant manager was among the people she went out with after work, but hey, I'm moving on. Then she mentioned that she would be working all next week even though the kids are on vacation, and that would include Friday, when she usually is off from work. Now, I happen to know that she has an appointment with a guy she met at her management course, so when I later found out that she was planning to also go out Friday night, I put two and two together and figured that she was going out with guy from course. All of this had been churning away in me, and yesterday it came to a head. After telling her that she has to stop being mean to me, I also said "I'm doing my absolute best!" Later, I said to her that she would have to arrange a babysitter if she went on Friday, because I want know part of enabling her to cheat on me and her family.

Now, can I just point out again that I KNOW this was the wrong thing to do, so feel free to scold if you like -- I know I deserve/need it -- but I would prefer advice.

So, I went upstairs and told W that I wasn't planning on dating, but now if she's going out with these dudes, I'm going to #%* everything I get my hands on and I'm going to be thinking about you while I do it... (Ouch). I also wondered to her what her company would think about a unit manager having an EA with one of her subordinates (she's stated her concerns about this to me before and made me swear not to talk to anybody about it -- and since I still have no idea/desire to know the real story, I don't have anything to say about it one way or the other.

At any rate, I apologized to her about the harsh words and assured her I had no interest in causing her to lose her job. It's just that one of our major problems is that, often when we try to talk about things, W shuts down. So, she says I can say mean things, but how am I supposed to know that she's even hearing anything I say if she NEVER responds?

I'm just kicking myself for saying such mean things out of hurt and frustration and I know it's a huge setback. My W remarkably actually came and sat down next to me and admitted that she wasn't planning on going out with a guy. I also talked to her about how much work it is to be home with the kids all day and then all evening when she goes out, but that I understood how hard she works. It's so strange (and unhealthy) and yet also a pattern in our relationship: we have a disagreement, she wants to talk about it and yells over me and gets angry, I walk away, W badgers, I say something outrageous and W walks away, and finally we reconcile. I KNOW this is something we would need to work on, and I hope we do have a chance to work on this issue. There were amazing, incredible times in our M and I would love to get that back and even make that the norm. I know now that winning back my hard-earned DBing progress and moving forward with detaching and GALing is the best hope I have to fix things.

So sorry about this.....

[sandi2]

When you tell W she needs to stop being mean to you.......it puts you into a whimsy, victim's role, which she will not be attracted to. The more a WAW disrespects her H, the worse she will treat him.

So, I went upstairs and told W that I wasn't planning on dating, but now if she's going out with these dudes, I'm going to #%* everything I get my hands on and I'm going to be thinking about you while I do it... (Ouch). I also wondered to her what her company would think about a unit manager having an EA with one of her subordinates (she's stated her concerns about this to me before and made me swear not to talk to anybody about it -- and since I still have no idea/desire to know the real story, I don't have anything to say about it one way or the other.

You are trying to force her to stop an A. You give out these threats thinking it surely will stop her. Let me tell you that it doesn't make her love you. You may threaten something that puts the fear of God in her to the point you've blackmailed her to stop the A or else.
But you can't win her heat by force/control. Love comes from free will.

You say you know it was wrong, but will it stop you the next time? When a person continues displaying bad behavior, apologies afterwards holds little value. If your W apologized for an A but continued having one, you would look at what she was doing instead of what she said.

You asked how you know if she hears what you say b/c she doesn't respond. I can sympathize, but again, you can't force it.......and that's exactly what you are trying to do. If you can't shock a response from her by threatening some action, then you say something worse. You are digging your own M grave!

You can't control yourself, so why do you think you can control her?

I'm just kicking myself for saying such mean things out of hurt and frustration and I know it's a huge setback. My W remarkably actually came and sat down next to me and admitted that she wasn't planning on going out with a guy. I also talked to her about how much work it is to be home with the kids all day and then all evening when she goes out, but that I understood how hard she works. It's so strange (and unhealthy) and yet also a pattern in our relationship: we have a disagreement, she wants to talk about it and yells over me and gets angry, I walk away, W badgers, I say something outrageous and W walks away, and finally we reconcile. I KNOW this is something we would need to work on, and I hope we do have a chance to work on this issue. There were amazing, incredible times in our M and I would love to get that back and even make that the norm. I know now that winning back my hard-earned DBing progress and moving forward with detaching and GALing is the best hope I have to fix things.

It sounds like a role reversal from when the everyday housewife would complain to her H. When a man is home all day and the W is out working, I think it might be easy to slip out of that image (for a lack of a better word) that she once saw him. I see it a lot here on the board, where the W's main interest becomes her job and the H becomes the housewife. That movie "Mr . Mom" has a lot of reality points. But of course, it ended well, b/c it was just a movie.

So, you need to have a plan of action to work out your frustrations instead of how you've done in the past. Some people write the words they are feeling, and then destroy it. Some people have to do a vigorous activity. Please take this as fair warning, your words are doing incredible damage to your MR.

No more whines to your W about how hard you have it. No more threats and trying to control her. Step back and focus on being your very best. When you work toward being your best without expecting certain "rewards", then you will be a winner.

[Papa4Life]

Wow, Sandi, you've spoken volumes, thank you. I'm a person who responds to this type of feedback, and I'm truly going to take this to heart.

My words ARE having a deep impact, and I will change that behavior. For ME, notwith any other expectations or goals in mind other than to no longer be that person.

I've printed out your immortal 37 rules, I read them once a day, but I'm going to start LIVING them now.

You're right: it's time to start working on becoming the best me I can be.

[25yearsmlc]

Papa, my words are in red...

Oh yeah, one more thing, as I've mentioned, I've been doing my best to build up my PMA through socializing a LOT more, spending more time with kids, and just genegally being more upbeat and cheerful. I guess you could say that I'm trying to "fake it til I make it."

Good...it seems gimmicky at first but I KNOW it works. One time, a good mc (one of the 2 we saw out of maybe 7 over the years) suggested "for 6 weeks--and if need be--ONE week--please do NOT fight anything for that amount of time...and be courteous to each other. Yes, I mean 'thank you' and 'please' and opening doors and all the rest EVEN if it feels forced or over the top..."

and she's right. IT did help...we began to like each other more.


I even old W and MC that I'm feeling more positive, and that was moments after W had told me she wanted a D last Friday.

Why TELL her? Just show it...say nothing more. No more words...you have had a bad temper for a long time and thought that when YOU had cooled off, no one else was still upset or injured, but she was.


What I meant was that I feel like I'm ready to move on with my life with or without W (obviously preferably 'WITH' W).

this is good to FEEL but never say...

I mentioned that again last night and she said something like "Well, that makes one of us." I wonder what she meant by that.


why on earth would you repeat this? Stop it. Learn to STHU sometime real soon...okay?

I of course validated her feelings immediately without bringing up the fact that I wanted to stay together and work on our M.

when you say you "of course validated her feelings" be specific. What did you SAY to her? Sometimes guys get this wrong. Validation does not mean you support or agree with. Remember that.

And remember that in HER MIND and heart, you have had many chances to repair the flaws and learn to control your temper but you chose not to.

TO HER those were your chances...so, make sure you stay calm and serene when you can and DO NOT convince yourself that being miserable or sad in front of her will "show" that you care.

She has seen your depression for years and it's another reason you guys are here now. It's not attractive. I see a lot of folks wanting to make sure their WAS knows how sad they are, as if it "proves" their love but sometimes I think it's more about wanting the WAS to feel guilty.

Either way, it's NOT an attracting trait, and she has seen it too much already.


Still, I can't help but wonder whether this means that she has doubts about wanting a D, or if she is just focusing on the inevitability of breaking up and how hard it will be on us all.

Either way it's good that she is thinking about it and not in denial. As things sink in, chances are other thoughts and self doubt will as well.

Right now, she has negative images of you that you must CONTRAST with POSITIVES....so figure out which negatives YOU want to change (so they are not "tactics" but real authentic changes from within)...b/c no matter what she does then, YOU will be better off -- and so will your kids..


W also knows I've been talking to my mom back in the States and she asked yesterday what she had to say. TBH, my mom has a lot of anger towards her right now.


NOT HELPFUL....Look, IF you want to [b]keep the road home, paved & smooth, [/b]stop telling other people in the family about your problems.

That only makes it harder for your w to come back...
AND IF you feel you must share, then at least own YOUR part in this AND make sure it's clear you are facing a marital challenge you want to prevail over, so you need your mother's support - NOT her judgment of your wife.

Also, does your mom know you've been diagnosed as depressed and ADHA & had no conflict resolution skills? I am surprised that so many couples have a recurring issue (ie conflict avoidance, or conflict escalation) and then do NOT go and seek out help to solve that problem.

it's like knowing you have to lose weight b/c you caused yourself to get diabetes and then NOT consulting a doctor or nutritionist. You guys seemed to think your frequent temper problems were going to...what? Fade away?

MY POINT IS, there are resources all around the world for this and you need to avail yourself of as many as you find helpful.



The first time I spoke with her about W wanting D, I was distraught and I blamed myself for everything that had gone wrong. As time went on, W expressed an interest in speaking with my mom and hearing what she has to say about the sitch. My aunt (who is actually the ex wife of my late uncle and who is more of a great friend than an aunt) also sent an e-mail to W describing the pain and misery of D for kids and parents alike, but W felt ill at ease talking with her, which is ironic, considering that W has probably spent more time with aunt than Mom, and she's the godmother of our S.

You are VERY fortunate she was interested in hearing them speak to her, at all. And It's not ironic that she didn't want to talk to your mom; she's YOUR MOTHER...and if your wife told your mom HER (ie your wife's) views, her deeply held anger at you, and how hurt she has felt, your mother would want to defend you more---which would probably escalate things b/c i get the feeling your mom isn't great at conflict resolution...since you mentioned your childhood being a drag and all. ANYHOW

your mom might also want to avoid looking at any of the past issues SHE (ie your mom) may feel contributed to your issues...nothing like maternal guilt...

NONE OF THIS is relevant at the moment though...it's all you trying to maneuver and control the outcome, which you must stop doing. Esp since you claim to be ready for whatever comes...


At any rate, when W asked what Mom had said, I told her honestly that she knows hw harmful D is and how she "wouldn't wish being a single parent with four kids on my worst enemy". She speaks from experience: she had four kids and struggled for years trying to provide for us. But I stopped short of telling her that Mom refused to speak to her because she has "nothing to stay to her right now." It's the anger talking and I can't think what purpose it would serve anyway.

You're right--it serves no purpose so don't bring that up. In fact it's destructive. So Tell your w that your mom wants what is best for her grandchildren AND you both...just like you and your wife want.

And leave that alone. If your wife comes home to the marriage for real, you are making it harder for her to start fresh "from this day forward"...by telling others. And if you had told your mom the whole truth, wouldn't she realize that this is not something to "blame" your wife for, but to empathize with and try to help navigate?

I say that b/c my son and his fiancee broke up recently. My son's choice but a hard one...I love the girl and can see why they were in love but also why my son could not marry her, as she is now...(She has a mood disorder, imo and needs meds or therapy. But when she's happy and "on", she's wonderful). POINT IS, I never critisized HER...only supported son in his efforts to grow and their efforts as a couple.

But both of them were keeping score and measuring the efforts of the other.

Here's my tip on that.

You are the one here trying to save the marriage. She's not here. You will need to make the first step and the 2nd, and the next 294 steps after.

And you don't get to measure what she is doing of judge if it is enough.

You admit you did it in the marriage. Scorecards always damage marriages.

There are 2 big reasons why you must lose the scorecards (wherein you decide that you are 'owed' something b/c you "sacrificed" when she went to the store, etc.).

First, it's not loving. Scorecards and measuring "love," is premised on a selfish perpsective so it's destructive.

Second, you do not have the same measuring tools or scorecards as your wife which means,

on HER scorecard, you are way behind. In fact, so far behind she can't think of a reason to stay married and try.

Things you know about but gloss over or thought were done, or things you have no recall of, sincerely, are on HER scorecard...

You wrote,


this might just be "more of the same" behavior on my part. I used to always feel as if everything needed to be completely tit for tat, 50/50 right down the middle. So, in other words, if it felt like W was asking something of me, I would feel that she needed to compensate for my sacrifice later. For example, if W went shopping and I stayed home with the kids, then she had to pay that back by giving me time later. I mean, that sounds reasonable, but I admit that sometimes it could go a bit far.

FWIW, no it's not reasonable sounding to me. I mean, wow...

It's ALWAYS "a bit far" b/c it starts out from a bad place....

See, it's not about "being fair." (If you still think life is supposed to be fair, look at my signature block. Life in Africa is not fair...keep some perspective here.)

If your wife is the primary breadwinner, maybe to HER she is owed more and to HER that is what is "reasonable" so you ought to help "compensate her" for her "sacrifice" of working so much...but to YOU she is "lucky" to work at a job she loves, maybe...my point is, here is why you can't use scorecards...

Without belaboring the point further, just know that I cannot over emphasize how bad I think keeping score is and how much it undermines and sometimes destroys marriages...please avoid it.

Oh and one other thing-- try not to see time with your kids as a "sacrifice" or at least don't say it out loud.

Make sense?

You also wrote:



See, So, if I feel like W is doing her thing without being compelled to inform me of her whereabouts, then I feel (perhaps unjustly, I'm now seeing) that I shouldn't be required to volunteer that information myself.

Score, much? Help, much? I like fairness as much as the next person. As a lawyer I see it as a valuable trait...but you have to remember your GOAL. Don't react to how you FEEL, when you should keep your eye on the goal...


The thing is: part of LRT and going dark is "being a bit mysterious". So that was also what I was trying to do, but maybe it's pushing W away instead of bringing her closer.

I understand your dilemma. There is not universal path here. No "one size fits all" deal. You will face this along the way b/c much of this is counter intuitive (b/c we all felt like pressuring and pursuing MORE, not less...) so you need to monitor for results and make sure you're always thinking of the over all GOAL...

NOT "WINNING"... ask yourself some times, "Do I want to be 'right', or happy?" Sometimes you cannot be declared the "winner" and still have a spouse.



She says she only wants to know where I am in case of emergency, but I think that's a specious argument because I -- like every other human being on the planet -- have my cell phone with me. Maybe I should be flattered that she is concerned about my whereabouts.

Make sure she can reach you on your cell. This is mandatory for parents and it's inexcusable to not return an "urgent" call asap.

Stay at least somewhat vague re your whereabouts but DO NOT be angry she's asking.

Your enemy is not her interest in you. Your enemy would be her indifference to where you are or what you are doing or with whom...make sense?

You can always say, "w, our plans are always evolving so I can't say precisely where I'll be at given time --but I promise you that my cell is with me, fully charged and I'll answer you if you call or need anything..." (KEEP THAT PROMISE).

Don't argue with her about how "unfair" she is being or hypocritical (even if it's true)

or she'll stop asking you anything about your whereabouts. AND THEN

--how is that better? (It's not).

You also wrote:



As I mentioned in an earlier post, there have been times when W invited me to an activity with the kids and her family, we had a great time, only to have her turn around and say that perhaps I shouldn't have come because she didn't want to give people the impression that things were okay. I am inclined to just decline to do anything together, just to give her space and not feel like a fifth wheel. But if she asks, I think maybe I should go, just to make it clear that it's what I want. Confusing.

Tell her YOU know that just b/c you guys are getting along and the family can still do intact things together and enjoy it, that your marriage problems are not all solved. Tell her you "get it'--she wants out--she's done...

(and isn't that all that matters? Who is she worried about confusing?)

why make sure all the others in her family or your social circles know you are both in pain? What matters is that she not worry that you are getting your hopes up... AND if it's mutual friends, is she asking YOU to decline? Why not her now and then? Is she also thinking if you two divorce, that you'd be an outcast to her family? What is your r with them like?

(Do they feel about you, the way your mother feels about her? See what a drag that is?)

Just between us DBers, we can all hope she DOES start asking herself if this whole divorce deal is so great an idea...IF you are a changed man,

and IF you two are getting along better AND IF the kids seem to be doing better than alright when you are together...

But don't argue about it. And remind her that minimizing the impact on the kids sure is a good thing.

It's not the same as giving them false hope (in fact I'm not a fan of telling the kids of a divorce unless and until the decision to divorce is 100% certain AND CLOSE AT HAND...otherwise it's a far off concept and hanging over their heads too long. My mc told me that and it made sense.

Meanwhile when my kids would ask me if we were getting a divorce, I'd say

"I sure hope not b/c I"ve loved your dad a long time"

or

"Gosh I hope not b/c he's the love of my life..." And then I'd change the topic.

At one point I asked both my d's, separately, what their biggest fear was. They each said "moving again".

When I reassured them that we would not move again until d1 (then 16) had graduated from high school, they were way more at ease.

The mc also told me to stress to the kids what would NOT change for them, in the event of a divorce. Like they'd still have the same school, same friends, same house and neighborhood, etc....hope this helps.

You also wrote--


I also read another post from AS where he talked about the problems with MC. I have to agree that W really perks up when the MC suggests SBRs or separation. It's like the MC is validating her negative feelings. I think I'm going to confront the MC with these concerns when I see her tomorrow.
_________________________

make sure you are alone when you share this with the MC. Is she a "marriage" counselor or a divorce counselor? How many (% wise) couples does she help stay together? What if you want to work on the destructive traits you have?

What changes her mind, if anything?

[25yearsmlc]

Papa

I had not seen Sandi's post or your previous one, when I post to you. If I had, I'd have put a lot of capital letters in it.

You have not made much progress in the temper department and it's going to be your undoing for sure, if you do not change that NOW.

Your anger is not your friend, so lose the anger. Especially in front of her. If you want to show her a good catch, then be one.

Here's what my DB coach told me and I pass it on to you...

1) lose the anger.

(The more you show it, the more you validate her reasons for leaving you. So far the only thing you have changed is your wording about moving on and being fine with or without her...Your actions show the truth...)

2) applaud loudly for the 1% of positives she does. So if she spends ANY work time with the kids, you verbalize gratitude for it.
compliment her too...at work she gets positive feedback and those accolades keep her there instead of home. What does she get at home?

I used to punish my h for working late b/c I thought it was selfish. I worried that if I welcomed him home warmly that I'd be rewarding him for selfish behavior. Sometimes he HAD stay late but other times, maybe it was for ego reasons. But so what?

MY APPROACH of literally/figuratively answering the door with arms crossed did NOT get him home more. My approach was failing...so,

WHY didn't I welcome him home warmly and lovingly with my arms wide open?
Why didn't I change my approach?

(B/C I thought I was "right", not to....)

3) Keep the Road Home, Paved & Smooth...

4) Speak to her, OR show her, love in her "love language". If you can get a copy of Chapman's book "The Five Love Languages" it'll help.

5) GAL and I mean, for real.

It'll help you with a real PMA and it might lessen your temper tantrums. (Sorry but that is exactly how it felt to me...like a little boy stomping around threatening to screw OWs...not attractive).

And

6) Be less predictable. Perhaps you can figure out a way to work out of the home more or earn more OR not be around so much....

The stay at home dad is NOT always seen as progressively attractive as we like to tell ourselves. Some are not seen as virile and strong.

I've seen it work well, twice.

Both men who stayed at home had "jobs" they did on their own time or on weekends. They made some money or were very artsy/musical.

More importantly, they were very secure in who they were, very artsy and or scientific, attentive to their wives, and not easily angered or threatened. (Both wives were doctors, btw. So money wasn't a big problem.)

I've seen the stay at home dad thing, fail more than succeed.

But when it works, it's pretty cool to see. Most of that will change soon no matter what she does.

It has to. You have to change.

7) Last but not least, be the best father you can be. Your kids need you now more than ever, and no woman is unmoved by the loving interactions of her children with their father. No manager at work will ever have that going for him...

but if you blow it with your anger, you might really be blowing it...so again, see your anger for what it is, not a strength, but a weakness.

If you cannot control what comes out of your mouth, what can you do to show her a changed man?

Get the tools you need to work on this. Get on meds, whatever it takes...but make that change ASAP...

[25yearsmlc]

when you GAL and are less predictable (which could be one & the same)

here are some examples I mean...and which I did all of.

I joined a writer's group. Met intelligent creative folks.

I auditioned for community theater, and got roles and met fun people. ALso did stand up comedy and met FUNNY people and got funnier.

Took flying lessons and got my pilot's license.

Took a cooking class for Italian cuisine.

Took another French conversation class.

Worked out, used a tanning booth and got in shape.

Saw a therapist and in the winters, took ADs.

Learned to cross country ski, target shoot, hunt big game and deep sea fish.

Volunteered at a woman's shelter. Met concernced citizens.

Volunteered at my kids schools. Met other parents.

Taught personal finance to adults.

Went skydiving for my birthday.

edited a book...

coached a girl's softball team.

Joined bd of director's for state wrestling board...

took a pottery class--very different for me.

Joined the wive's club for the first time in h's 17 years of military service...

took on some cases for soldiers charged with crimes...earned something...

off the top of my head that's all I recall but it's the hardest I worked to just feel alright.

I had a baby then too, so it's not like childcare was easy.

It was in the interior of Alaska and the "city" didn't offer much but I found what I could.

Except for flying/skydiving, almost everything costs little to nothing.

You can do a lot more GAL and it will help in virtually every aspect of your life.

[Papa4Life]

25, the feedback you've provided here is invaluable. The general problem areas you've outlined are, of course, things I've known for some time and I'm working on them both on my own and in IC.

Let me ask you this: so the next step for W is that she wants to make individual plans for pre- and post-D. Do I just go along with that and do what she asks? Do I tell her that I still feel that she should work on things? Stander had a great post somewhere about validation (you're right, I do probably just agree with her and call it validation -- blam, another 2x4 between the eyes from 25!). I've got to learn how to do that effectively.

Thanks everybody for sharing your incredible wisdom and support.

Happy Easter.