Becoming Patient Man

[PatientMan]

I want to recommend a book to you....

the journey from abandonment to healing by susan anderson

Without delving deeper, I think that a lot of what you describe here, are patterns of repeated behavior, and maybe it would be worth it to take a look into it....


I'm reading that right now. It is very good. (I hope we're allowed to talk mention that here.)

Added to the list! I'm so far behind on books...done with my MBA in December!

[PatientMan]

I don't know why I feel inherently invaluable. I don't know.

I know there has always been a void in my heart, and I've tried filling it with all kinds of different things - things that one would THINK would fill the void (and some things we all know don't) - but nothing ever "worked" until I began to work on myself and regenerating my faith post BD.

So the only thing missing.....was you...

Sound about right ????

Right.

I finally figured out I couldn't escape myself.

I did/do not like myself, so I try and surround myself with things and people that I DO like. Maybe they are prizes or toys or distractions...I'm not sure. None of that worked, so then it's on to figuring out how to escape...how to get out of my own head. But that doesn't work either because I simply cannot escape myself, and if suicide is not an option, then I had to work on being able to live myself.

That's what I figured out shortly after BD. That I had to stop trying to escape. It's funny because W went on several trips last year to "get away" and never came back feeling any better. I finally told her, "there's one constant in all the places you have been, both here and there." She admitted it was herself and I said, "you can't escape yourself. Believe me...I tried."

Perhaps I see her as both a possession and a definition of my own value. If I can possess a thing with such great value, then it must mean that *I* am good and successful and worthy and valuable.

So...

Maybe it is like a reward program for you ???

If you are a good provider, and fulfill your "Husband" obligation, then you get to play with your toys. And the quality of toys that you have, determine how well of a job you are doing ???

I think that a lot of Men think that way. Or at least until they learn another way. Most of the time, we have to learn it the "hard" way.

It is flawed thinking, and behavioral patterns, but where did we learn them ???

You say that you came from a broken home, correct ? How much of that taught you to cling tightly to inanimate objects ? How much taught you to hold onto people ??? And if you held on tight enough, then they would never get away from you ??

Maybe we don't speak of that happening, nor is it a thought that is at the forefront of our beings, yet we have thought that way in the past. And that thought became a vehicle for us, so that we could take it out for a spin. We liked it so much that we CHOSE to drive it more often.

Simply put, those thoughts have become our actions....

And our actions have become our behavioral patterns..

And our behavioral patterns are what builds our character. It is who the world sees in us when we "think" that we are better than that.

When actually, we carry around this fear of abandonment inside of us, that causes us to become angry, clingy, controlling, manipulative , materialistic , moody, lacking self esteem, trust etc....


How many of those things would describe you at various points in your marriage ???

All of them, of course.

And yes, my parents divorced when I was 2. I don't know how to quantify my desire to hold onto things, but I do lean more towards risk aversion. "One bird in the hand is worth two in the bush," the saying goes. Or three. Or ten. But I don't know if that's who I am or a product of my circumstances...the old psychological nature versus nurture question, but is the answer really valuable? 70/30 nature/nurture? 50/50? 20/80?

The answer is impossible to know, but I do know that my insecurities do lead me to cling onto my "things." BUT, I'm very selective with my things, which means I have put a lot of thought and time and effort into accumulating them, which naturally means I am more averse to losing them since I have so much more invested in them.

I'm very picky about the people I let into my life. W was the first girlfriend I had of more than a month or two. We were young anyway, but prior to that, if a girl started annoying me after a month, I knew it wasn't worth pursuing further so I always ended the relationship.

I thought I was a loner. I realized later on I am just really picky.

Where there is smoke, there is usually fire...

Ya know ?

So you think I may have issues with abandonment? That is a completely new thought/idea to me. I'll check out the book.

I would also like to recommend thinking a little about what it means to you to Love within a relationship, and the difference between love, and obligation within a relationship.

How are they different ?

Why would you want them to be different ???

What changes within your role, when you separate those two things ????

Has that ever been done by you ???

No, I haven't thought about that.

Do you mean "love" as a verb or a noun? The act or the feeling?

I'll echo what C.S. Lewis said about love and obligation:

“The promise, made when I am in love and because I am in love, to be true to the beloved as long as I live, commits me to being true even if I cease to be in love. A promise must be about things that I can do, about actions: no one can promise to go on feeling in a certain way. He might as well promise to never have a headache or always to feel hungry.”

[jp787]

PM, I follow your thread, but I will be following it much more closely now. I see so much of me in you.

[Mach1]

So you think I may have issues with abandonment? That is a completely new thought/idea to me. I'll check out the book.

I can't say one way or another, yet you do exhibit signs of that. And your history would certainly point towards that. A lot of your fears point to that as well.

Take a look through the book and see if anything "fits".

No, I haven't thought about that.

Do you mean "love" as a verb or a noun? The act or the feeling?

I'll echo what C.S. Lewis said about love and obligation:

“The promise, made when I am in love and because I am in love, to be true to the beloved as long as I live, commits me to being true even if I cease to be in love. A promise must be about things that I can do, about actions: no one can promise to go on feeling in a certain way. He might as well promise to never have a headache or always to feel hungry.”

I love C.S. Lewis....


Actually...

Both the noun AND the verb...

As much as I love C.S. , I would really like to hear YOUR words and thoughts on it...

[PatientMan]

You said a lot in this initial response, and I don't want to get off topic from the first question that we're exploring, but I'd like to briefly respond to a few items you addressed that aren't questions and likely don't need further exploration.

I am afraid of being replaced by a stepfather who will be responsible for the day to day fathering (leadership, discipline, security, interaction) of *my* children. .

And that very well MAY happen. You do have a choice though, and no matter what happens, you will always be their Father/Dad. No person can ever take that away from you.

I told my kids this when my Ex told them that she was dating ...

That nothing would ever take me away from them, and that he was a pretty good guy, and had a lot to offer them. That they NEVER had to feel as though they were protecting me from anything, and that would not be betraying me by being good to him. That they needed to treat him with courtesy, and respect, because they would never know what he could offer them unless they were open enough to find out.

I like the way you put that^. Thank you.

I am afraid she will move the kids away from me to exacerbate the previous point. My mother moved me and my sisters across the country when I was 7. I don't speak to my biological father anymore, I speak very highly of my stepfather, and even call him "Dad" and consider him a valuable role model..

Your wife isn't your Mother, and treating her that way will do more harm than good.

Oh, I don't treat her like my mother...not in any way. But my mind will at times shift into high gear and I know how things CAN go...just from my own experience. When the mind is racing the unlikely can seem so plausible. It's just a fear that I admit has crossed my mind. It doesn't grip me daily, but it's there.

Regardless, it's in the divorce decree that she can't move them away from me, though I'm told it isn't really enforceable. As in, if she moves to another state, a judge isn't going to force her to move from that other state back to be near me. I hope it never comes to that, of course.

She has her own abandonment issues, I suppose, but some good has come out of it. Her mother left when she was about W's age and went across the country. And stayed. Other than this life crisis and the reaction to the spouse (which is eerily similar), that's where their similarities end. I believe W's vow of commitment to have both parents around until all the children are raised.

I am afraid I am too determined and persistent to move on, and that perhaps God doesn't want me to move on or stop pursuing my W in whatever way I can, including DB'ing or refusing to give up...

I don't think that God gets too involved with affairs of the heart. I think that he puts us into positions that we need to be in though. I think that he gives us exactly the problems that we NEED , so that we can fix ourselves, and then gives us opportunities to either embrace, or discard according to the lessons that we have learned.

Instead of praying for your wife to do this or to do that, maybe pray for the strength to endure the test, and to embrace the lesson that he is teaching you ???

My prayers are almost exclusively unselfish - that is just my belief system. And what I include that is selfish I admit to Him that it is selfish. That it is just my human want, that His will be done, and that I be the man He intends me to be to carry out that will, no matter what.

I admit that I have and do pray for my wife and I to reconcile, but I admit that it is selfish (and it is such a tiny piece of my overall prayer). I pray that it is more important that she finds the peace and happiness and fulfillment she seeks - even if that is without me - and that she looks for those things in the right places.

And I pray for my kids a lot. To give them strength. And courage. And to know they are loved. And to help me lead them the right way, no matter how this turns out.

But I don't pray childishly and selfishly for God to change her heart so she loves me again. God isn't my magic genie from the lamp. And even if it worked that way, that isn't how I would want it to go down.

To your last sentence, the trick to figuring out what God's lesson is, is being able to tell the difference between a sign and a test. That's a tough one.

-PM

[PatientMan]

I love C.S. Lewis....


Actually...

Both the noun AND the verb...

As much as I love C.S. , I would really like to hear YOUR words and thoughts on it...

My thoughts are that I am obligated to love her even if I am not in love with her at that time. And maybe that's been easy so far because, though I've had my own tough moments, I'm still in love with her...I think.

Am I? That's a good question.

But my actions, the way I have stood by her and shielded her and loved her no matter what, aren't me paying her in kind for the damage I did while she put up with me while I was mentally sick. It's just me doing what I'm supposed to do...what I think the "right" thing to do is. And I rest my head at night in peace believing that.

But if she wants to divorce me, I have to respect her wishes as well. Respecting her desires is showing her love...putting her wants/needs above my own. But divorce doesn't mean I have to stop loving her.

If she needs space then loving her is giving her space even when I don't want it. If she needs time then loving her is giving her time even if I don't want to. If she wants to never see me again then loving her is leaving her be, even if that's torture to me.

Love and obligations...I think W and I have different definitions at this point in time - something we would need to address if reconciliation ever was desired.

[Mach1]

Love and obligations...I think W and I have different definitions at this point in time - something we would need to address if reconciliation ever was desired.

As you should...

She is running from it, and you are embracing it....

I like where you are heading....

[PatientMan]

Can you expound on that last sentence? Where I am "heading" in reference to what? This dialogue and digging into myself? Realizing the reality of my situation?

Thanks for your time and thoughts.

-PM

[Spartan]

You said a word that took me a long time to work through and Mach would likely tell you I'm still struggling with it so I'm curious...

Why do you feel obligated to love your wife?

Where does this obligation, this duty to stand and love her no matter what, come from?

Is it an obligation to just your W or is it also tied into keeping your family intact?



To answer your last question, I'm excited for where you're heading with regards to digging into yourself.

[PatientMan]

You said a word that took me a long time to work through and Mach would likely tell you I'm still struggling with it so I'm curious...

Why do you feel obligated to love your wife?

Where does this obligation, this duty to stand and love her no matter what, come from?

I feel that's my job as a husband...that's what husbands are supposed to do. That's what I promised I would do, and just because she changes her mind doesn't mean it changes who *I* am.

I also believe that's what God calls me to do.

But I haven't been gritting my teeth angry about what I think God wants me to do. My core beliefs, that sense of duty, that sense of fulfilling promises, staying true to my word, being an honorable man and doing what I think is honorable - no matter the situation - is what has driven me, for the most part.

Now that obligation doesn't mean I am a doormat. Loving her can't take precedence over loving my children, for example. And as I stated previously, loving her means respecting her wishes as much as I disagree with or don't like them.

Is it an obligation to just your W or is it also tied into keeping your family intact?

Keeping the family intact is just an extra incentive, not a main driver.

-PM