Can you expound on that last sentence? Where I am "heading" in reference to what? This dialogue and digging into myself? Realizing the reality of my situation?
Thanks for your time and thoughts.
-PM
Where you are heading, in regards to your inner growth. Your ability to look inward and recognize the areas of growth that you want to attack....
PM...
I am curious though, with all of the talk about "obligation" that has been flying around here
How would you describe the difference between obligation and love ?
How are each of those tied into the other for you ?
How do you know the difference, when things are going good ????
PM - Don't take this the wrong way and I hope you don't take offense but I was half expecting your answers to say that when I asked you the question. You know why, it's exactly the way I answered it when it was first asked of me several months ago.
Question you need to ask yourself is: Do you love your W? Forget obligations and duty and all that. Would you run through hell with gasoline drenched shorts on for her today?
Hold on one second...I don't think you can answer that question until YOU answer the next question:
What does loving another person really mean to you? No quoting anyone else, in your own words. You don't even have to write it here, just make sure you can answer it.
Through my journey I realized that I did in fact love my W unconditionally. Sadly after 20 years together I hadn't figured that out and many of the things I did were out of obligation and I'm sure that showed in my actions. How could she feel loved if I were doing things because I felt I should do them and not doing them out of love?
At first I had never thought about what love meant to me or what it even was. I came to this site reeling because I feared being alone, I was completely codependent on my W, I had vowed to never be D'd (dad left us when I was 3 and I promised myself I would never allow that to happen to my family), and I wanted to "win" and save my M like the guys in the movies do.
Personality is who the world sees, character is who you are
Where you are heading, in regards to your inner growth. Your ability to look inward and recognize the areas of growth that you want to attack....
PM...
I am curious though, with all of the talk about "obligation" that has been flying around here
How would you describe the difference between obligation and love ?
How are each of those tied into the other for you ?
I suppose they are related, but certainly not the same. I feel obligated, as a husband, to act a certain way. But that doesn't mean I act a certain way solely because I am obligated to. For the most part, I act a certain way out of love. When times are tough and love gets strained, obligations need to be remembered.
Obligations are behavioral promises...a man's word. Love can be a feeling or an act, but not necessarily an obligation.
Originally Posted By: Mach1
How do you know the difference, when things are going good ????
When things are going well I don't feel obligated to do much of anything. My actions are out of love, and actions out of love are inherently good.
Originally Posted By: Mach1
How would SHE know the difference ???
Between ME acting out of obligation and out of love? I suppose she would have to sense it. For example, many couples "feel" like roommates but remain faithful to their marital vows. They "sense" something is wrong in the relationship, and that the other spouse is simply acting out the marriage out of obligation.
-PM
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
What about introducing the word Obliged into the mix?
M46,W41 D16,D18 M22,T25 BD 11/12 W moved out 01/13 Piecing 10/13 Divorced 01/15 "Whether you worry or not has no affect on the outcome. But, moving forward, letting go, and making changes can." UrWorthy
PM - Don't take this the wrong way and I hope you don't take offense but I was half expecting your answers to say that when I asked you the question. You know why, it's exactly the way I answered it when it was first asked of me several months ago.
Question you need to ask yourself is: Do you love your W? Forget obligations and duty and all that. Would you run through hell with gasoline drenched shorts on for her today?
Yes.
Originally Posted By: Spartan
Hold on one second...I don't think you can answer that question until YOU answer the next question:
What does loving another person really mean to you? No quoting anyone else, in your own words. You don't even have to write it here, just make sure you can answer it.
It depends on what kind of love you are talking about in what kind of relationship, but I believe "Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends." (John 15:13)
Love (the noun) also means putting someone else's wants and needs before my own. It means protecting, leading, caring for, helping, respecting, sometimes admonishing...it is manifested in a combination of so many actions of love (the verb).
Originally Posted By: Spartan
Through my journey I realized that I did in fact love my W unconditionally.
Me too. In fact, in a letter I wrote her about a year ago, I told her that I loved her unconditionally, and that meant, by definition, that I love her without condition. She didn't need to love me back. That was back when I was pursuing still, and I meant (and still mean) what I wrote.
Originally Posted By: Spartan
At first I had never thought about what love meant to me or what it even was. I came to this site reeling because I feared being alone, I was completely codependent on my W, I had vowed to never be D'd (dad left us when I was 3 and I promised myself I would never allow that to happen to my family), and I wanted to "win" and save my M like the guys in the movies do.
That sounds all too familiar.
I realized very quickly..the day of my first BD, in fact, that *I* needed to fix *me*. I knew I had problems and had been looking for a reason to do it, I just always put it off. "I'll get help tomorrow. I'll fix this tomorrow." I went through periods where I worked on being better, on ACTING better, but I never fixed me and I would always relapse into depression and its grip on me.
Wife dropped the bomb...THERE'S my reason. Most influential day of my life. Everything has been different since.
I didn't realize until much later on that she needs to work on herself too. I've been trying to help her with that in a very passive way. After all, I love her, which means I want to help her, but I also have to respect that she's divorcing me.
Thanks for your thoughts. Keep 'em coming.
-PM
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
My Mrs. needs work too and even though we're about to file we're still seeing our couples therapist whom we both really like. The Mrs. wants to see her individually, but our counselor has stated that we as a couple are her client so she'd have to let me know what was discussed and to date my wife hasn't been just ready to do that.
My wife's totally noticing my changes and has been absolutely floored and overwhelmed with them. She's just so puzzled why we've gotten to where we are even though there is so much there. I'd think a few sessions where she gets time with our therapist alone she might push her to think about whether there's a reason why the two of us still can remain so close, friendly and caring for each other during the initial divorce preceedings. I know the Mrs. would laugh/scoff at me if I said it, but she really trusts our therapist.
I just gotta keep up my end of this and continue to work on myself. I feel like I've taken a few steps back because I've gotten more comfortable with the changes I've made, but to the point of being complacent and that's why I ended up where I'm at in the first place!!!
Another day, another new thing learned.....
Have a great Memorial Day weekend.
Trying
Me 42, Wife 39; Married 16; Together 17; Kids: D13, S10 Wife asks for Divorce: 03/19/13 Reconcile: 07/07/13 Round 2 Starts: 02/19/17 Apartment Life: 04/21/17 PA Confirmed: 05/23/17
W's birthday is today. Got her a card (only) and helped the kids spruce her room up with balloons and banners and their gifts while she was at work. Did dishes and organized a home clean up (by the kids) too.
Signed the D papers today too and left them for her.
-PM
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
Aw, what a dichotomy, PM. The sweet gesture of making her b-day special on the one hand, and the sad fact of signing the D papers. My heart goes out to you, buddy.
How are you holding up? You seem fairly positive, challenges notwithstanding, so that's good.
Despite my DBing efforts, it seems as if my D will be finalized by the end of the summer. But I'm oddly at peace. I say oddly, because (obviously) it isn't what I want and it's most decidedly not what's best for my kids. Still, my DB work has helped me focus on myself and reconnect with the P4L I used to know and love. Everybody I've been coming into contact with (except STBXW, obviously, lol) tells me how much they admire my PMA and how much fun I am to be around. I really hope that you've reached that point in your own sitch!
I've been following your thread for a while now and I'm really rooting for you, amigo.
Stay positive and be well.
P4L.
M41 W42 M 12 T 15 S10, D9, twin Ds 3 1/2 BD 1/2/2013 Living as roommates Working on D agreement w. mediator 5/13
PM - That's brutal having to sign the birthday card and D papers on th same day. Sorry you had to do that, but I guess it is what she wants so Happy Birthday??? ;-)
Picked up my kids and we're on vacation while the Mrs is on her first business trip since going back to work in October. This will be a rough week for her because this will be the longest she's been without the kids EVER. I'm glad this is happening not so she is in pain but so the reality of her decision to walk sets in on all fronts. When I got them yesterday and we left her house, she had to run inside and I could hear her lose it. Reminds me of a fortune cookie I saw once "Happiness is not about what you want but what you have."
Me 42, Wife 39; Married 16; Together 17; Kids: D13, S10 Wife asks for Divorce: 03/19/13 Reconcile: 07/07/13 Round 2 Starts: 02/19/17 Apartment Life: 04/21/17 PA Confirmed: 05/23/17
Aw, what a dichotomy, PM. The sweet gesture of making her b-day special on the one hand, and the sad fact of signing the D papers.
Both were the right thing to do. It's important to do the right thing, no matter what and even when "the right thing" isn't easy. That's what I teach my kids and I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't live my life that way too.
Always doing the right is part of how I learned to live with myself. I can't understate the importance of it.
Originally Posted By: Papa4Life
How are you holding up? You seem fairly positive, challenges notwithstanding, so that's good.
Overall, I'm doing well. I'm having a tough couple of days, and I slipped a little bit by showing a little weakness this morning, but I put it behind me. I'm really focusing on making my girls' lives as awesome as I can. I'm a hard man, and I have high standards, but I also want to reward all the hard work and self discipline I teach and expect with not only the natural results of that hard work and self discipline, but I want to give them a childhood I didn't have: involved parents who loved them and showed them how to live, love, and enjoy life.
Originally Posted By: Papa4Life
Despite my DBing efforts, it seems as if my D will be finalized by the end of the summer. But I'm oddly at peace. I say oddly, because (obviously) it isn't what I want and it's most decidedly not what's best for my kids. Still, my DB work has helped me focus on myself and reconnect with the P4L I used to know and love. Everybody I've been coming into contact with (except STBXW, obviously, lol) tells me how much they admire my PMA and how much fun I am to be around. I really hope that you've reached that point in your own sitch!
I've been following your thread for a while now and I'm really rooting for you, amigo.
Stay positive and be well.
P4L.
Stay on track. Keep digging and working. I'm still going to plug away on my end, even after divorce. I am a changed man, not a man who was changed only until divorce, and she'll see that. Regardless of how she reacts long term, I'm a better man and my girls have a better father for it.
Thanks for your thoughts. I wish you all the best. Remember: a man is not finished when he is defeated, he is finished when he quits.
-PM
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
