Emotional Connection and Attraction

[BC39]

Thanks Hopeful,

Basically, she came out of her shell a bit, but went right back in because you did things that hurt her. You won't be able to make much progress with her in this state, you'll have to wait patiently until she feels comfortable enough again to emerge. If you mess up again, and are disrespectful- boom, she'll go right back into herself. Be very careful- you could cause her to believe that you can't change, and you will lose her.

Can you clarify what you mean by this? I don't believe I did anything to hurt her. I'm always respectful to her.

Just a small note.....just yesterday W and D7 we're talking about boyfriends and girlfriends and W said to her "when you're older and have a boyfriend they need to be loving and respectful, just like your dad is with me".

[Accuray]

BC39,

I've read some of your sitch but not all. After my W's EA I faced similar feelings to what I believe you're going through -- that my W didn't find me attractive, but had been very attracted to OM.

There are a range of books out there about "How to make yourself attractive to your wife again" advocating a range of strategies.

The unfortunate thing is that focusing on your "attraction" feelings for your spouse is reserved for the "honeymoon" phase of relationships, and may not be a reasonable expectation for a more mature relationship like yours, particularly one that has gone through the type of trauma yours has. Therefore, you may be striving for something that is not attainable, and your wife's expectations for how she "should feel" may be misguided.

If she expects to feel about you the way she did about her EA partner, the unfortunate news for you is that she never will. Affairs are built on fantasy, and include a high degree of self-deception. This is induced by the involuntary release of chemicals in your brain and there's nothing either of you can do to "force" those chemicals to release.

I read a book called "ILYBINILWY" which I think presents the most accurate and realistic view of how feelings evolve over the course of marriage. The author says that the initial "high attraction" in love phase of marriage is known as "limerance" and is characterized by putting the object of your affection on a pedastal. You exaggerate all their positive traits, and turn their negative traits into endearing quirks, or even positives. During this phase, you're awash in brain chemicals, and have diminished capacity for rational decision making. This is a *wonderful* feeling, and is addictive, which is why affairs are often so hard to give up, and those feelings are mourned for a long time after the affair ends. The feelings are intensely pleasurable.

Often times, the strength of these feelings are bolstered by fear. Fear of losing your lover, of having your affair discovered, the fear fuels the love. That's often why the LBS often feels more "in love" with their spouse than they have in years -- it's driven by the fear of loss.

Those feelings *inevitably* pass, no matter who the relationship partners are. It has a defined shelf life from 6 months to 3 years at the longest.

What replaces them is something the book author calls "Loving Attachment", which is the norm for a healthy marriage. Feelings of attraction and limerance may resurface from time to time, but often as flashbacks brought on by adversity, temporary separation, making up after arguments, etc.

Therefore, the appropriate "goal" for you and your wife may not be "attraction forever after", but instead a return to "loving attachment". The author differentiates them as follows:

"Someone under the spell of Limerence is bound tightly to his or her beloved, however well or badly he or she behaves. In the case of Samantha and her lecturer, because he was unaware of her feelings, he virtually ignored her, but her attraction to him still stayed strong. In contrast, Loving Attachment needs to be fed, or it will wither and die. While Limerence makes someone turn even their beloved's weaknesses into strengths, long-term couples -- Loving Attachment couples -- are only too aware of their partner's weaknesses. Finally, a couple under the spell of Limerence does not care about practical matters like earning a living because they have 'their love to keep them warm,' whereas a Loving Attachment couple tackles the complexities of life and its practical demands together.

Unfortunately, the myths about romantic love -- and lack of knowledge about Limerence -- make us believe that once we have found our partner, we can then relax, because love will automatically bridge any problems. Even when overworked or preoccupied with children, we imagine our partner will understand if he comes at the bottom of the list of priorities, or she will forgive if we fail to complete that task for her. In the short term, Loving Attachment will survive this kind of neglect. But if consistently abused, a relationship with Loving Attachment will deteriorate."

The book goes on to say that when people say "ILYB..." what they're really complaining about is lack of loving attachment, they have in fact become detached.

What happens at that point is loving attachment is replaced by "affectionate regard". Affectionate regard is not conditional, because it exists independently of how the recipient behaves. It is the kind of "unconditional love" you have for your children, parents, that you might have for your neighbors or friends. You feel love for them regardless of what they do or say, or how frequently or infrequently you see them. It is "detached love", and unfortunately that is not enough to keep a marriage together.

I guess what I'm saying to you is give yourself a break -- I think this "attraction" goal you and your wife seem to share is going to be unattainable, and the quest to try to foster it will put unneeded pressure on both of you. You will feel like you're failing for not inspiring it in her, and she will feel like she's failing because she doesn't feel it.

Your goal should be to get "invested" in each other again. This is fed by listening, sharing, generosity, physical contact (not just sexual), being supportive, sharing a sense of humor, and going the extra mile for each other. None of those things require you to be "classically attractive", but I bet that if you achieved them all mutually you'd be very satisfied with your marriage, and thoughts of attraction wouldn't even be on the radar. The "attraction" is needed to bridge the gaps when these things are missing, but in itself isn't the fuel that keeps the marriage burning.

Hope that helps.

Acc

[lovethehub]

W has confused me in this regard.

4-5 months ago I felt like she needed space so I didn't pressure or initiate sex for few weeks. She then initiated, we had S, then afterward she asked why she was always the one that had to initiate. I told her I was just giving her space.

So we'd had S a few times after that point then she denied me a few times. After one of the denials I brought it up the next morning and she said "well you didn't try very hard". (like she wanted me to pursue her)

I may be wrong, this may not be DBing, but I don't see any reason why, in this situation, you can't say "Hey, help me out here. I am trying to give you your space and respect your wishes but I'm really not sure what it is you want from me in this area right now. I feel as if you aren't ready for sex right now, am I misreading this?" Or something similar..

Up until a few weeks ago my affection included being playful with sexual touches, but she had no problem with it, she played right along.

We would do walk by hugs and kisses, cuddle on the couch, fall asleep holding hands etc. 50% was initiated by her.

The last month 90% of this is initiated by me. I'd still done the odd playful sexual touch but she has seemed uncomfortable at times...this is a first. So I've pulled back on those as well.

Walking by and touching her, cuddling, holding hands are great. They show you care without rushing her.

The "playful sexual touches" (in my experience and what my friends say) seem to be something that guys think is a good idea but women don't like it so much. I am not saying I don't ever like it, but I don't like it regularly. For example, H comes up and hugs me from behind and I love that. H comes up and hugs me from behind and can't help but throw in a little squeeze on my boob - turn off, I know feel like an object and that everything has to be about sex. This is how I feel most days. Some days, we are joking around, making quiet motions about sneaking off for sex (kids are around), making eyes at each other, etc. and that is the perfect context for "playful sexual touching".

I don't know if all women feel this way, I know my friends and I all do.

I took W out on date for her birthday last weekend. It went really well, we had great conversation and plenty of laughs, it was nice to go out with just the two of us. It was actually the one time in the last few weeks that the affection was going both ways. We held hands when we walked, she came cuddled me a couple times while we were in some stores....it was nice.

Maybe QT is your wife's LL. Yes, it would be easier if she took the test, however, you can figure it out (it's just more work!). Put them all into play and pay attention to how she reacts to the different things you are doing.

At all costs, avoid any disrespectful statements (like correcting her when you think she's wrong, using sarcasm, bringing up the past, pontificating on any subject etc.). Doing ANY of these things reverses, by a wide margin, any positive things that you do. Think of her heart as a bucket that you are trying to fill with water. Once the bucket is overflowing, she will be in love with you. Each time you speak her LL you will add water. Each time you are disrespectful, or do anything that hurts her feelings, you are drilling holes in the bottom of the bucket. It will never overflow as long as you are putting holes in the bottom.

I couldn't agree more! It is a battle to get back in, you feel so positive and one little thing happens and it sends you back to the beginning or makes you feel hopeless all over again. (Think I just gave myself some perspective on how my H was feeling the other day)

-I have a hard time continuing showing her affection if she doesn't reciprocate.

-There's times I want to go quiet, stop showing her affection just to see if she'd notice and/or come to me.

-I'm not sure how to word it properly, but I almost feel weak or grovelling

That is not what you want to do when you are being a spouse only a fool would leave. Continue to give her little touches, occasional hugs, kisses, etc. Leave out the sexual touches. Just don't go overboard, there is a fine line between natural, comfortable and what she appreciates and going overboard so she feels like it is all an act to get her back.

Patience (that annoying word again!)

I read things like MMSLP and start getting it into my head to use SOME of its principles to up my Alpha etc etc (the Alpha thing has come up in our R in the past), then it conflicts with what were suggesting above and I get confused on what I should be doing

Came up how? What did your W say about it? We want a man who is strong, has his own opinion but is also loving and caring. We do NOT want a pushover who just says "whatever you want honey"

[BC39]

Thanks Accuray, fantastic post.

ILYBINILWY was actually the first book I read after BD a year ago. I should read it again.

The book goes on to say that when people say "ILYB..." what they're really complaining about is lack of loving attachment, they have in fact become detached.

There's a very strong chance this is exactly what my W was saying during BD.

I wasn't giving her what she needed. There were times I took her for granted, felt entitled, didn't tell her how I felt about her often enough, didn't make her feel special often enough etc etc. I've always been 'good' to her, but 'good' just wasn't/isn't enough.

On top of that I had anxiety disorder that held me back from doing a lot of things that W got the burden of doing.

So its no wonder there was a problem with her loving attachment.

I've tried to 180 all those things and work on myself.

I guess what I'm saying to you is give yourself a break -- I think this "attraction" goal you and your wife seem to share is going to be unattainable, and the quest to try to foster it will put unneeded pressure on both of you. You will feel like you're failing for not inspiring it in her, and she will feel like she's failing because she doesn't feel it.

Any suggestions on how to get this message through to my W?

Your goal should be to get "invested" in each other again. This is fed by listening, sharing, generosity, physical contact (not just sexual), being supportive, sharing a sense of humor, and going the extra mile for each other.

I'm certainly trying to do this.

Thanks again for advice, glad to have you on my thread.

[BC39]

I may be wrong, this may not be DBing, but I don't see any reason why, in this situation, you can't say "Hey, help me out here. I am trying to give you your space and respect your wishes but I'm really not sure what it is you want from me in this area right now. I feel as if you aren't ready for sex right now, am I misreading this?" Or something similar..

This is what I'd like to ask, but as you said, I'm not sure it's DBing. It seems like a reasonable thing to talk about based on the mixed messages.

Walking by and touching her, cuddling, holding hands are great. They show you care without rushing her.

The "playful sexual touches" (in my experience and what my friends say) seem to be something that guys think is a good idea but women don't like it so much. I am not saying I don't ever like it, but I don't like it regularly. For example, H comes up and hugs me from behind and I love that. H comes up and hugs me from behind and can't help but throw in a little squeeze on my boob - turn off, I know feel like an object and that everything has to be about sex. This is how I feel most days. Some days, we are joking around, making quiet motions about sneaking off for sex (kids are around), making eyes at each other, etc. and that is the perfect context for "playful sexual touching".

I don't know if all women feel this way, I know my friends and I all do.

Very good points. I'm certainly guilty at times of too many sexual touches.

That is not what you want to do when you are being a spouse only a fool would leave. Continue to give her little touches, occasional hugs, kisses, etc. Leave out the sexual touches. Just don't go overboard, there is a fine line between natural, comfortable and what she appreciates and going overboard so she feels like it is all an act to get her back.

Patience (that annoying word again!)

Agreed.

Came up how? What did your W say about it? We want a man who is strong, has his own opinion but is also loving and caring. We do NOT want a pushover who just says "whatever you want honey"

She's said things in the past.

She said not long after BD that although she's likes how laid back I am but also thought I lacked passion and I was passive at times.

She's made a comment pre BD about me not engaging in arguments. That she's picked fights just to see if I would engage.

She complained a couple times pre BD that I didn't take enough control in the bedroom.

I don't think this ^^^ paints a fair picture, although there is some truths to these comments.

I am a pretty laid back person, but I don't lack passion. (I wish she could see how much passion I put in trying to save our marriage as one example)

[Accuray]

Any suggestions on how to get this message through to my W?

You really can't do it directly. The remedy is time and patience, you work on it by NOT working on it, as odd as that sounds. Shining a light on it stops your progress.

A couple suggestions for you -- after an EA when you start piecing sex is often an issue -- the LBS wants to have it again and the WAS needs to go slow.

The issue is that physical touch can really help bring you back together, but often innocuous touching leads to thoughts of sex for the LBS, and fear of sex for the WAS, which makes even benign touching tinged with anxiety.

One thing to try is this: Your W must initiate all physical touch, and you agree that you will reciprocate, but not escalate. If she hugs you, you can hug her back but no more. If she kisses you, you can kiss her back, but no escalation.

Another good habit is to try hugging before you leave the house in the morning, when you get back together after work and before you fall asleep. Hugging for at least 30 seconds has been shown to release minor resentments, to encourage "bonding chemicals" to be released, and to center both of you back in the relationship. Make it a habit and it won't be awkward. It's good for your kids to see you do this too, BTW, it's a good thing to model. 30 seconds is a long time, so that takes a little getting used to.

Finally, it can be useful to agree on a frequency when you will have sex (i.e. once per week, once every two weeks, whatever) but then leave it up to your wife to choose when. This can help her to mentally prepare for it which really helps.

These are some things that helped in my sitch, sorry if you've already covered some of this or are doing it already.

Acc

[BC39]

Thanks Accuray, I really appreciate your perspective. I'd be very grateful if you read more of my sitch history if you ever get the time (or I could try to summarize for you)

We've been piecing for a year. The affection and sex has been a work in progress but it has been there.

Her affections toward me have been pulled back in the last month.

I'm not entirely sure why.

I understand the reasons why I'm being told to not talk to W about it, to be patient, just keep my PMA and affections toward her without getting nothing in return....I understand....

BUT...one of the things we're supposed to be working on is NOT sweeping things under the rug. Is that not what I'm doing by not talking to her about it?

I swing from having days of clarity of what I should be doing to days of having no clue if I'm doing things properly.

There's times when I don't think I've explained my sitch properly. All the daily little details and past history that would affect the valuable feedback I get here. I get very frustrated with myself trying to explain.

[Accuray]

Please do give me a summary if you don't mind, that would be very helpful, because reading through all the history, things that might have been an issue 3 months ago may no longer be an issue today. I've been piecing for two years, so am probably just a bit ahead of you on the timeline. As a fair warning, in many ways I've swung over to a WAS mindset rather than LBS -- you should know that.

BUT...one of the things we're supposed to be working on is NOT sweeping things under the rug. Is that not what I'm doing by not talking to her about it?

I'm sure you've observed it's not that cut and dry -- there are things you can actively work on and things you can't. For instance, if your wife is messy and that bothers you, you can work together on reducing clutter. That's something you can actively work on and you shouldn't sweep under the rug.

If your wife does not *FEEL* attracted to you, that may not be something you can work on, as she can't will herself to feel differently, and may not know, or be able to describe to you, what you need to do to work on that. There are things like this that actively working on them sets you back, and you're better off either (a) having faith that things will get better through time if you "do the right things" in general to be a spouse only a fool would leave, (b) having faith that it may never get better but it's something you can learn to live with, or (c) it's a showstopper and you've got to make an ultimatum and follow that by leaving if things don't resolve to your satisfaction.

The final category is things you *could* work on together, but your spouse refuses to do so. That, in my opinion, is the most painful and frustrating category, and the one that ultimately will turn *you* into the WAS if given enough time.

Acc

[Hopeful321]

Accuray,

How are you? I havent heard from you in a long time.

I am so sorry, I don't mean to high jack here, but any advice he gives, listen because it helped me.

[Accuray]

I'm well Hopeful, you are my favorite success story.

Acc