Emotional Connection and Attraction

[BC39]

Thanks guys, I can't begin to tell you how much I sincerely appreciate having you here.

It seems as though your wife, at least intellectually, understands that they chemical, emotional, high that she got from the OM is not mature love. What Accuray and Andrew Marshal describe as "loving attachment" pales in comparison to infatuation (what Mr. Marshall calls "limerance" and Accuray calls "in love"), and some WAS don't get that. When I say your wife is not "in love" with you, I speak not of infatuation (I agree with Accuray, you cannot expect that high to return in a long term marriage) but of loving attachment. It is the absence of loving attachment from a marriage that can make a spouse feel that there is no "love" in your marriage. A lack will also kill attraction.

I agree. W and I have touched on this in the past. I'm not sure how she REALLY feels about it at the end of the day.

You are in the best position to determine that, the community out here can only guide you based on what you write on these boards.

Exactly, and I'm not very good at. These last couple posts had me thinking about just that and I've dug out some notes I have with some things I haven't mentioned. I'm going to post shortly.



Accuray this gave me goosebumps, you couldn't be more right, I'm going to need to read this a few more times.

Well, I do honestly believe that all that's required for infidelity is opportunity. So I do believe you can "do nothing wrong" and still get cheated on.

Very true. The opportunity came at the perfect time.

Usually, however, there's something else going on real or perceived. Sometimes the WAS was deeply hurt or upset by something they never told you about, or did tell you about but you drastically underestimated the importance of it.

Both of these happened.

Not to say that these hurts were rational or fair or anything else, only that they can exist with or without your knowledge. For the "soon to be WAS" it's a common pattern that they smash their issues with you down rather than deal with them, and resentment sneaks up on them before they know what's happened and they're on their way to checking out.

I think very few people make the decision to go cheat and to detach from their marriage. Generally it's the result of negative self-perpetuating cycles.

And this.

I will definitely get SSM, thank you.

[BC39]

I know I might get some 2x4's for this, but please humour me, I'm just trying to leave no stone unturned. This is going to be all over the place.

Anyway...I've went back over some old notes and it got me thinking about this whole "alpha" and "beta" (or whatever you want to call it) dynamic.

Some things she said sporadically pre BD (within the last 3 years):

- "alpha" came up in a convo. W sais she didn't think I was
- complained when I didn't take control in the bedroom. She liked it when I was a little rough.
- she told friends in front of me she'd pick fights with me just to see if I'd engage

She also said positive things. Like after S she would say "do you think we're still going to have this much fun when we're older?" "Do you think our friends do as much fun sex stuff as we do?"

Some things she said during BD (the negative stuff):

- didn't make her feel special, like she was #1
- I lacked passion
- I was passive at work, she worked harder than me
- habitually doesn't believe when I say I'd change
- hated when I drank
- never stuck up for her, didn't feel like I had her back
- lost some respect for me and thought I'd lost some for her
- hadn't been proud of me in a while


Things that have happened since piecing:

So as I said previously, about 3-4 months ago a few incidents happened in regard to intimacy and sex.

-W complained that she was the one always initiating sex.

-during that same week she said "well you didn't try very hard"
after I complained about getting turned down.

-we went to bed one night and I said (stupidly) "do you want to fool around?" She got angry. I said (stupidly)"I'm not sure how I don't start taking this personally", then she hit me with the "well we're obviously having attraction issues". (this was the first time she'd said this in a long time)

When I asked W just over a month ago to explain her "attraction issues" she said she couldn't, said she'd think about it then get back to me. She never did.

- W read all the 50 shades of grey books last summer. Commented that "all men should read this book, it goes a bit far, but some of the stuff you should read"

All of this stuff ^^^^ is why I brought up MMSLP, but I just didn't explain why I did.

Now...none of this ^^^ accounts for how she's being at the moment. She did say she hasn't wanted try to be intimate with me, but she certainly hasn't given me any sign she wants me to initiate with her either.

[Accuray]

Women will often be indirect, or give you hints you're supposed to pick up on. Men, on the other hand, often require direct communication and specific instruction.

I think you need to tell her that you're motivated to meet her needs and make her happy but you need a more direct statement of what she likes and what she's looking for, then you must force her to be specific. When she says she wants you to take charge in the bedroom, that's too vague. Say "When I'm taking charge in the bedroom, what am I doing? What does it look like to you?"

Unfortunately they will often feel that if they have to spell it out it kills it for them but you have to push through that -- you only have to tell me once, and then I will know.

The other observation I have is she made the attraction issue comment to you in a moment of frustration and you seized on it and have fixated on it, probably because it touched off one of your fears. Your fixation on it may be reinforcing it for her when otherwise she would have just forgotten about it.

You may be best served by letting that go and focusing on what she needs and wants versus trying to fix it. Just ignore it for now.

[MrBond]

All that stuff would work for a woman IF you weren't married to them. You could try to be assertive, mysterious, etc. but your W has a romanticized notion of what she wants that isn't realistic based on marital history and past experiences.

If she tells you that she wants you to be assertive and more like a "man" to dominate her, she could later turn that around and call you "controlling". Happens all the time. The thing is that you need to live and become what YOU want to. If you want to be more assertive and more "masculine", then take on a persona of someone whom you can model after. When you get to that point, you don't really care what your W wants you to be. You become the ideal because you want to.

[Accuray]

Yes that is why specifics are also so crucial. If you interpret being dominant as pulling hair but your W views that as physically abusive you're headed for trouble. The path out of this starts with clear and open communication and proceeds by working on it together, not by you figuring out her hidden agenda or worse yet by you throwing darts based on your guesses about what she wants.

I agree with Mr. Bond and posted something similar a while back -- be who you want to be and the best spouse you can be. That has to be good enough and if its not you're done.

[BC39]

My Best Attempt at a Summary

BD was May of last year. A family friend saw W was caught kissing OM in kids school parking lot after dropping them off in the morning. There was a bunch a trickle truths, but it turns out the OM was a mutual friend of ours. W and OM ended up in his car one day 2-3 months prior to be caught to finish a conversation because it was raining. Upon saying goodbye he kissed her. They kissed a few times over the few months leading up to May and were texting back and forth. There was about a week between finding out she kissed "some guy" to finding out it was our friend.

I had my suspicions and asked her if it was him, it wasn't until then that I got the ILBINILWY speech (more detail in my first original post). Our wives were friends. Our kids played together. They we're at our house often. They spent time with our extended family during parties etc. We became friends with them about a year prior to BD.

She said she just got a high from his attention and was somehow able to "turn off a switch" on her feelings/guilt.
There had been a bunch of things that have been building up in her that finally come out:

- I've been dealing with anxiety/panic disorder periodically for over a decade. I travelled very little, always wanted to drive places by myself, never wanted to go far from home. She was always amazing during these times. She drove the kids everywhere, would go to family things without me and make up excuses why I wasn't there, went on trips with friends/family without me because I couldn't go. Although she was fine with this for a very long time she started to build up resentment towards me because of it. She said I could have made more of an effort to do things close to the house. She is right, and I completely understand how this has all caught up with her, shes basically had to take care of most things.

- We've worked together with my parents (partners) for the last 10 yrs. Her and I have helped grow the business tremendously. We always made it work. People used to ask how we did it and W used to say "he's the best part of my day". But over the last year or so she was building up resentment towards me because she worked harder than I did (this is half true). We obviously spend too much time together and that its finally caught up to us. (She said she wished I went away for a month just to see if she would miss me, we've never had a chance to miss each other as we we're together 24/7)

- W said she hadn't been attracted to me in a while, hadn't been proud of me in a while, lost some respect for me, I don't show enough physical and emotional affection, didn't make her #1, etc etc
She said all these things ^^^ were "on her mind for a while and they all turned to concrete when she was caught. " That being caught "was her out". "A part of her wanted to get caught" (they kissed in kids school parking lot, we live in a small town and know lots of people)

She said she wanted to separate to figure out what she wanted. She said she would discontinue seeing or speaking to OM.

* As a side note the "family friend" that caught W kissing OM told my family so they all knew. We work with my parents. When we separated W sent text to my entire family telling them that she was sorry and that she needed time to figure out what she wanted in life. She also promised there would be no outside influences (referring to OM).

We separated for about 6 weeks. She said she enjoyed her time by herself. After 6 weeks she said she wanted to come back home because "being on her own has been too easy and she's not working on the marriage that way."

(I felt like I was a changed person overnight. I guess the threat of losing your W and family will do that. I 180'd all of her concerns, I got in shape and have never looked back.)
So it was the end of June last year by this point. OM and his family had since moved to the town over from us. OMW had no idea any of this had happened. I contacted OM at time of BD, he begged me not to tell his W. I told him I wouldn't if he vanished from our lives. I just wanted them gone. Told him he'd have to figure how to cut ties between his W and mine. (His W and my W best friend were also close. So I'm sure OMW was wondering what was going on when both the girls weren't returning her calls.)

We started MC. It was very helpful. It showed how poor our communication was.

We spent the summer doing lots of things as a family. Things went very well. Our S life was getting back on track.


Then we hit a "turning point" in October.

I caught W calling OM. She trickle truthed for a couple days but she called him a few times during September.
W sister (who I am very close with) ran into OM. He proceeded to tell her he had lost his job and his grandmother was in hospital. So W called him.

W said she just called him "as a friend", and "they didn't say anything inappropriate to each other."
I couldn't believe it (at the time). I asked her how she'd be willing to risk everything to talk to him "as friends". She said "he's the only person that knows what I've been through", then said "she realized how stupid it was", "I don't have any feelings for him, I just felt bad" etc.

I very calmly said "I need to take a step back from this marriage to figure out what I want, I can't do this anymore".
W started sobbing and apologizing, begging me to give her another chance.

I left it for a day to make sure she just wasn't talking out of emotion.

A day later she sent me this letter:

I’ve been trying to find a deeper, and maybe a more meaningful way to tell you I’m sorry. But I know it’s an endless search. There’s only one way, and it’s in my actions. This is why I’m writing you this letter. I’ve crumbled our wall of trust, now for a second time. I realize that we’re starting all over again, brick by brick to rebuild it. I know it won’t be easy, but I promise I will put 100% into it. I’m so sorry for making you hurt and feel the way you are. I’ve been completely selfish, and for some reason I felt entitled to it. I blame myself, and regret not trying as hard as you have been. I’m not sure how I thought we could get better, if I wasn’t committing myself entirely to the process. I never want you to feel silly, ashamed, embarrassed, disappointed, or broken-hearted. And yet, I’ve managed to do so twice.
I know that you will be sensitive to everything I do, and that time is needed. If I want this to work, I need to promise you I’ll be patient. (BC39) I promise I’ll be patient and understanding. I struggle with my fears, but I know I have to put them aside if I want the mortar to stick in our wall. I will be accountable to you.
I want for you to tell me what you need. I will allow you to be vulnerable with me, and I with you. I promise to reassure you time and time again that I am in this. I will do whatever it takes.
I Love You[/i]

She went on to say she felt like she had an "awakening" much like I did after BD.

Things got much better after this. She'd ask me numerous times daily if there was anything she could be doing for me etc. I was treating her the way she deserved to be treated.

Our MC they'd we'd been seeing since June thought we'd come to the end of the road with MC, she commended us for how far we'd come. MC said to come back if we needed anything in the future but we we're done. W agreed. I voiced my concern that it was too soon, but I just went along with it.

That was end of October last year.

Things were great for 7 months. I didn't want to let my guard down but we were at a "new normal". You could walk into our house at any given time and not know we'd ever had any problems. Sex life wasn't back to normal but getting better.
There were certainly times when I thought "we're going to make it".

W started her own home based business but we had to transition her from our family business at the same time, so she started working from home doing both until we can fully transition her.

I was concerned that we hadn't had a R talk in a long time, so I wasn't sure if her feelings had changed or if she still felt the same way she did in the letter from Oct. Her actions said everything was good.

In April (this year) W only sister, who is married with 30 with 2 young kids separated from her H for very similar issues we've had. Her husband is a great guy (he's actually W best friends brother. My W and her best friend (who I'm also very close with) set them up. I love my SIL dearly, we're very close, but I obviously have a biased opinion on the matter.

So my W and SIL go up to my parents in law to tell them about what's happening. SIL wanted W to go with her for support. My W had the exact same convo with their parents exactly a year prior.

When W got home I asked her how it went. She said it went well and supports her sister. W is also close with the husband, they've been friends since they were kids (W best friends brother).

The whole thing obviously has me reeling as W and her sister are inseparable and I'm worried they're enabling each other.
When she got home I flat out asked W (we hadn't had a relationship talk in a long time) "does your sister doing this make you want to do it as well?" She said "no" smiled and gave me a hug. I said "how do you think things are going with us?" She said "good, I think we're still working on it, but I'm glad I came back from our separation and I'm glad we're working on it".

When we went to bed that night W started to cry. She said she was "proud of her sister for doing this now before she did something stupid like I did"

Then 2 weeks later... end of May this year (a month and a half ago).

I get a text out of the blue from OMW. She said "did you know (W) sent (OM) a picture of her t!ts? they still have something going on"

My hear t sank. OMW had obviously just found out (a year later) about A. And I was angry, firstly because my W promised during BD that no pics were sent, and secondly that I was dealing with her A again.

I didn't raise my voice but I was angry. I showed W the text. After pausing for a second she said "that was last year during all this mess". I said "you promised me no pics we're sent, what else happened you're not telling me about?" She said the pic was of her cleavage and she was fully clothed. She said "I swear this all that happened".

She then started saying "I still feel the same way", still has "attraction issues" etc. I pointed out that she deflects to this when her indiscretions come up.

I said things I shouldn't have about how disappointed I was in her for doing what she did. I brought up a bunch of stuff she did and lied about during A and BD. This was the first time I'd brought her A since it happened.

I told her I wanted her to leave.

She asked to talk to me a couple minutes later while crying. The tone of convo was that basically that this M wasn't going to work. She didn't come right out and say it but it was implied.

So for a couple of days she worked from home during the day and stayed at our friends (her BF) down the street.
I was feeling the same way I was after BD. I was devastated. I began to think that asking her to leave was a mistake, I handled it all wrong. Admittedly part of me did it hoping I would get the same response I did in October after I found out about phones calls. Manipulative I know.

After a couple days we were at home together before she was intending on going to her sisters, I asked to speak with her. I explained I asked to her to leave because I needed some time to think. I told her I wanted her to stay. She agreed.
The next day we had a very long heart to heart, maybe the best one we've had in our sitch (more detail in posts) and came to the conclusion we both still want to work on M.
The next week or so (first week in June) everything was good, the affection from her was still there, she initiated S.

Then the affections started to dwindle.

Everything else has been good. We still get a long great, we laugh a lot. She SEEMS happy most of the time.

But then she tells me the other day they she hasn't inclined to try to be intimate lately.

When I ask her about recent affection and S she chalks it up to "trying".



That takes us to when you started posting to me

[HopefulStill]

Have you reached out to the OMW? She may have insight that you lack. You are fighting for your marriage, you need all the info you can get. You will also need her eyes and ears to keep the OM away.

The way you spoke down to and shamed your wife six weeks ago was a huge mistake. You can't take it back now, but do not repeat it no matter what you hear from the OMW. Don't despair- I made the same mistake and still recovered my marriage, but it probably extended my pain for an extra 9 months.

Realize that the OM only builds up her esteem, never making her feel bad (even about destroying her family!). For him, everything is great! She gets nothing but affirmation about what a kind, beautiful, caring and sacrificing person she is. He asks her "why are you with this husband that treats you so awfully?". "You deserve so much more!". Meanwhile, back at the ranch, there's you. You shame her about her past actions. You make her feel like a bad person. You think she is a horrible cheater. Which person's opinions do you think she wants to hear, in her heart?

I know how you feel. I know that what she has done is reprehensible. I get it. She should be kissing your butt for still staying with her. The problem is, she does not see it that way. Not right now. Eventually, maybe, but not right now. So I you really want her back, you cannot point out her mistakes, nor make her feel bad for hurting you. What you did that day was frighten her right back into her shell of withdrawel. She is on emotional lockdown. In fact, you may be causing her to long for conversations with the OM. He understands her, she'll think. He'll know what I should do. He'll make me feel better about myself, not guilty. He knows what I've been through......

Get your reactions in check. You can't control the way you feel when you hear these things from your W, but you can control how you react. Eliminate your disrespectful comments. They are hurting your marriage in the long run way more than helping you feel better in the short term. Be her biggest fan. Continue being a great husband. At the same time, don't be a fool- you need to know that there is no one else fogging up your attempt at reconciling with your W.

[Accuray]

Thanks for the summary! It was a good summary, and there are several parallels to my sitch although I'm sure many of these things unfold the same way.

Have you gotten treatment for your anxiety / panic disorder and do you continue to go to therapy for it? That is on you -- you owe it to W to take care of your mental health and not to rely upon her to be a crutch. This is a treatable illness.

My hear t sank. OMW had obviously just found out (a year later) about A. And I was angry, firstly because my W promised during BD that no pics were sent, and secondly that I was dealing with her A again.

Yeah, that's brutal, ghosts of the past knocking you back several months of progress. You can't know everything, you never will. There are things W has forgotten about, things W doesn't think are significant, and things she just won't bring herself to tell you. Gotta let that all go unless it starts up again.

If you take a long term view, you had a recent trauma that shook the two of you up, but you are both saying you want it to work out, so IMO the best thing you can do is do nothing to "work on" your marriage for the next 4 weeks. Just "be" and "let things happen". Take the focus off sex and affection, no R talks, just take a break and be. You can share this plan with W too, I'm sure she'll be relieved. Put a date on the calendar and stick to it, then reassess.

Here's my opinion for what it's worth -- marriages need balance in order to survive.

In a WAS/LBS situation, the relationship "balance of power" shifts to the WAS, almost 100% where the LBS can become servile in trying to meet the WAS' needs, not calling them on the carpet for their BS, etc. GAL is supposed to counteract this effect, as are Sandy's 37 rules, but when you get into "early piecing" this is a very easy trap to fall into, where you put your needs aside and focus on her needs exclusively.

If you think about it from her position, there are two problems created: (1) you're putting a lot of pressure on her to rise to the occasion of this new marriage you're "working on", and at the same time (2) you're putting yourself in a "one down" position by making the bigger committment, and "wanting it more"

It's the second one that is the "attraction killer", and the first one that puts up the defenses, or the withdrawal, for fear of failure. If she's afraid she won't measure up to your new standard, it's easier to blame that on you, or just not try, or otherwise withdraw.

One thing MMSLP did have right is that you tend to partner with someone who is at the same level as yourself. This is also discussed in "Passionate Marriage", that we tend to marry people who are at the same level of differentiation, or self-actualization, that we are. It is this balance that makes the relationship liveable.

The biggest challenge in piecing, therefore, is that the LBS needs to reassert their equality in the relationship, which is very tricky business indeed.

As an LBS, you can have no expectations, because you're not in a marriage and the WAS feels they owe you nothing. As a "piecing partner", however, you MUST have expectations, and you must have boundaries around having them met that you enforce ruthlessly.

My observations about your summary above is that the times you told your wife to "beat it" are the times you made the most progress. I believe that this is because you are making an implicit statement of your value, and therefore reasserting your place in the relationship as an equal -- that you will not tolerate or accept bad treatment.

Fear of losing your WAS keeps you in a one-down position. It makes you the first one to give in when there is an argument, it makes you the more accommodating one. When you lose the fear, and decide that you will be okay with or without the marriage, you actually relieve the pressure on your spouse, and make it safer for them to re-engage with you as an equal, and once again give them something to value.

My very best prescription for you is to take the four week break and just "be". That implies staying away from this site, and anything else that is going to prompt you to dwell on your sitch. Dwelling on it becomes an addiction, and over a long period of time it doesn't help. Do what you want to do, without first thinking about what you "should" be doing.

At that point, after the break, read SSM and have your wife read it to IF sex is still a problem.

You have correctly identified that your wife goes to the "no attraction" place as a defense mechanism when she feels she's failing, and then re-frames her prior positive efforts as "trying". The reality is more than likely that her positive effort were genuine, and the attraction issue is a reaction to relationship pressure and fear of failure. Let's try turning down the knob on that for a while and see what happens. In the long term view, four weeks is nothing for a meaningful experiment. Are you up for it?

Acc

[SM34]

This thread is the MOST FASCINATING thread on this forum right now.

I was going to start a debate over attraction concepts, and MMSLP concepts, and how they might be pro or counter to DB.

This is good stuff guys!

I will comment tomorrow when I have more time.

keep it up!

[MrBond]

SM34,

DO NOT hijack this page with the attraction theories again. Go ahead and create your own thread, but don't hijack someone's thread. You had a hard time sticking to concentrating on your W because you kept analyzing the attraction thing to death rather than looking at your individual sitch.