Emotional Connection and Attraction

[MrBond]

This is BC39's personal thread and shouldn't be used as a debate forum.

BC39, IMHO I wouldn't worry about the "attraction" statement. Everyone has gotten that talk, both male and female. The women will tell you that it's one thing and the guys another. Either way, there are times when the WAS will say they aren't attracted to you or that you didn't do this or that or a long checklist of faults.

The problem lies within the WAS. You could look like Brad Pitt and they'll say they're not attracted. Yet you meet someone new and they will say you look very attractive. You can't analyze why a WAS says or does something because they don't really understand themselves.

However, those who do the work and try to understand what marriage is about, gets that passion and "attraction" back. That's what I've seen time and time again. But that's just my two cents.

[Accuray]

I agree with Mr. Bond who articulated better than I did. The attraction and caveman theory stuff is a red herring and chasing after it is the long way around. Be who you want to be, be the best spouse you can be and attraction will take care of itself.

[SM34]

MrBond. My comment was actually going to be about Bc39 and some of the simikarities I see between he and myself.

I was also going to say that Accury has some very good points as to how attraction may be secondary to having that all important emotional connection with their spouse.

I was going to praise YOU as I always do, for being so knowledgeable.

I also wanted to ask BC39 if he had ever wondered if there was a medical reason for some of the symptoms he suffers from, since they are all ones I know too well....

Anxiety
Not be able to focus
Being somewhat Moody or passive aggressive
Always having a finger on the pulse of the marriage
Wondering why the W isnt 'feeling it'
Wife had concern with his drive or work ethic
And generally feeling a little 'beta' as he (and his wife put it)

I have spent months trying to get to the bottom of why I am the way I am, and why I feel anxious and a little depressed, and generally a little sluggish.

These are all issues I have had.AFTER marriage but BEFORE bomb.

I've now discovered that my testosterone is not optimal for a man my age, and ALL the symptoms or issues he is having can be attributed to low T.

MrBond, I really do think you areba great guy and I know we dont always see eye to eye....

And it has,been a little disheartening that lately yourself and a few others who I have a lot if respect for and never said one negative word about,, will not give,me a chance to help.

I have been silent on the forum for many months and took the time to learn to listen, learn to appreciate others.opinions, and grow into someone better. And through this on going journey, I have learned a few things and have seen a few reoccurring patterns that I wish to share with men who suffer from similar character issues as,myself.

It is unfortunate that some of the people that helped,me see my faults the most, will now not give me the chance to show,my new tolerant, caring, passionate me.

I know you saw the responses I got when all I ever did was givwme my opinion. Yourself, Tallula,, and gabbysmom, all people I respect, have been jumping to conclusions as to what I am about to say, and judging me for my opinions, and coming awefully close to asking me not to post here anymore.

Im not the same person you all knew from a few months ago. Perhaps you can akl try to practice what you preach by showing some support for other peoples opinions, and showing some of the new nembers how to not jump to conclusions oe assume you know exactly what someone is about to say. You used to call that mind reading I think.

Anyway, BC, have you ever had your testosterone checked? Many of the issues you might,be dealing with as listed above, are associated with low T in men. This might be something worth,looking in to. There are natural ways to remedy that, and I have been doing this for some time now and feel much better about myself.

I have less anxiety, or.close to none. I feel more energetic and productive at work. And more driven. My mind feeks sharper than before and im getting more things done. Procrastination is beginning to be a thing of the past.

I want to have my T checked in a couoke months to see if the results would back how I feel.

Many of the 'alpha' behavior that woman MIGHT be atteacted to, comes natural when T levels are optimal. But more importantly, I feel it is helping,me feel good about my self and my personal goals in life. And THAT is probably what causes atteaction in the women around you....not pretending or learning to act a certain way. You just become more confident and more productive and accomplished when your T levels are good. And I suspect that would help you greatly

[MrBond]

Sorry for the hijack BC39 but I have to respond to SM39 since he doesn't have his own thread.

SM39, you did what I hoped you wouldn't do and made it all about you.

"And it has,been a little disheartening that lately yourself and a few others who I have a lot if respect for and never said one negative word about,, will not give,me a chance to help."

No one said you couldn't help. In fact, it's great you want to. But your problem is and always have been trying to teach. And you try to "teach" things about "attraction" that many people recommended had nothing to do with your sitch. But you didn't listen, which is your right, but you're stuck and to teach that attraction stuff again to others isn't helping.

"I have been silent on the forum for many months and took the time to learn to listen, learn to appreciate others.opinions, and grow into someone better. And through this on going journey, I have learned a few things and have seen a few reoccurring patterns that I wish to share with men who suffer from similar character issues as,myself."

There's nothing wrong with that. BUT it's the WAY you do it that people didn't like.

"It is unfortunate that some of the people that helped,me see my faults the most, will now not give me the chance to show,my new tolerant, caring, passionate me."

DO NOT play the pity card here. There was NO tolerant, caring, passionate you before. You kept arguing with people on here rather than actually sticking to concentrating on you. It hasn't clicked in yet.

"I know you saw the responses I got when all I ever did was givwme my opinion. Yourself, Tallula,, and gabbysmom, all people I respect, have been jumping to conclusions as to what I am about to say, and judging me for my opinions, and coming awefully close to asking me not to post here anymore.

DO NOT accuse anyone of this. We would be happy for you to post. But don't post, ask questions and then argue with people because you didn't like their answers. You kept looking for a quick fix rather than fixing yourself. No amount of attraction warranted your W spending half the time with another guy and the other at home.

"Im not the same person you all knew from a few months ago. Perhaps you can akl try to practice what you preach by showing some support for other peoples opinions, and showing some of the new nembers how to not jump to conclusions oe assume you know exactly what someone is about to say. You used to call that mind reading I think."

Of course we don't mind read you. You haven't posted in awhile, so that's why I encourage you to update your story. But you still obsess and concentrate on this "attraction" issue which turned many of the women off.

The question about the testosterone is fine. The "alpha" stuff that you accompanied with it has nothing to do with that. It's a physical condition.

[SM34]

MrBond, I acknowledged that I was wrong im many ways back then, and my 'new' me has no problem admitting it.

I was wrong on many fronts, as I suspect we all are when we arrive here. I will update my thread soon so we can chat and I can get some more.insight from you, tallula, gabbysmom and all the other vets who help us all.

but on to helping BC, I think it may be helpful to explore low T as a possible solution to some of his 'ailments'.

Mrnond and Accuray, you have both written some awesome posts on this thread. There is a wealth of info here, and should be mandatory reading for ALL lbs husbands.

Another point I liked and agree with one hundred percent,(and its what I am working on and recommend BC works on) is the point about being attractive to YOURSELF before you can be attractive to your spouse.

GAL and PMA and the DB stuff is great, but as a man if you find it is exceptionally difficult to get started, I would recommend ecploring your T levels.

T in men seems to dictate a lot of things, and can really hinder your efforts.

Again I am not an expert, these are just my findings and what seems to be helping me a great deal, with beung happy with myself.

BC, keep posting and.updating us. We are here for you. You have some POWERFULLY insightful folks following your thread. Hear them, let it sink in, and keep moving forward!

[BC39]

Hey Guys,

Been away for the last few days. Took family camping then W and I went to a friends cottage for a couple days and then we just got back from taking the kids away for the weekend. Busy but fun week!

Have you reached out to the OMW? She may have insight that you lack. You are fighting for your marriage, you need all the info you can get. You will also need her eyes and ears to keep the OM away.[quote]
Yes, I spoke to OMW numerous times for the couple days following the day she texted me. She was given all the same info I was.

She said her husband (OM) wanted to work things out. She was still in shock at the time but from what she said to me she wants it to work out between them as well.

[quote=HopefulStill]The way you spoke down to and shamed your wife six weeks ago was a huge mistake. You can't take it back now, but do not repeat it no matter what you hear from the OMW. Don't despair- I made the same mistake and still recovered my marriage, but it probably extended my pain for an extra 9 months.

I know, I let my emotions run the ship. I had a lot bottled up up until that point and it all just came out when I got that text.

Realize that the OM only builds up her esteem, never making her feel bad (even about destroying her family!). For him, everything is great! She gets nothing but affirmation about what a kind, beautiful, caring and sacrificing person she is. He asks her "why are you with this husband that treats you so awfully?". "You deserve so much more!". Meanwhile, back at the ranch, there's you. You shame her about her past actions. You make her feel like a bad person. You think she is a horrible cheater. Which person's opinions do you think she wants to hear, in her heart?

Exactly. W even admitted at BD that she exaggerated my shortcomings to get more attention.

I know how you feel. I know that what she has done is reprehensible. I get it. She should be kissing your butt for still staying with her. The problem is, she does not see it that way. Not right now. Eventually, maybe, but not right now. So I you really want her back, you cannot point out her mistakes, nor make her feel bad for hurting you. What you did that day was frighten her right back into her shell of withdrawel. She is on emotional lockdown. In fact, you may be causing her to long for conversations with the OM. He understands her, she'll think. He'll know what I should do. He'll make me feel better about myself, not guilty. He knows what I've been through......

Exactly, I understand and agree.

Get your reactions in check. You can't control the way you feel when you hear these things from your W, but you can control how you react. Eliminate your disrespectful comments. They are hurting your marriage in the long run way more than helping you feel better in the short term. Be her biggest fan. Continue being a great husband.

Again, I understand and agree. I'm continuing to try to be the best husband I can be..

At the same time, don't be a fool- you need to know that there is no one else fogging up your attempt at reconciling with your W.

I hope I'm not a fool. I guess time will tell. I actually looked at my W phone yesterday for the first time in long time. It turns out when OMW sent me that text she sent my W one as well. All it said was "nice t!ts". My W replied, apologizing profusely for what she'd done, all the people she effected, and that she's living with the guilt of her actions daily.

OMW replied. I can't remember exactly what she said, but it ended with "never speak to me again."

So everyone knows now and OM and OMW want to works things out.

[BC39]

It was a good summary, and there are several parallels to my sitch although I'm sure many of these things unfold the same way.

Thanks. I'd love to read your whole sitch. Is it posted?

Have you gotten treatment for your anxiety / panic disorder and do you continue to go to therapy for it? That is on you -- you owe it to W to take care of your mental health and not to rely upon her to be a crutch. This is a treatable illness.

Over the years I've been on and off numerous medications and did cognitive behavioral therapy. I even tried hypnotherapy. The anxiety and panic disorder still seemed to come and go as it pleases whether I was on meds or not. I stopped taking meds approx 3-4 months before BD and it was fine.

After BD it actually went away. I have no scientific reason, but all I can chalk it up to is that I had more important things to worry about. It started to come back about 6 months ago, but its been manageable. I exercise 3-5 times a week so its possible the endorphins have helped more than anything else.

If you take a long term view, you had a recent trauma that shook the two of you up, but you are both saying you want it to work out, so IMO the best thing you can do is do nothing to "work on" your marriage for the next 4 weeks. Just "be" and "let things happen". Take the focus off sex and affection, no R talks, just take a break and be. You can share this plan with W too, I'm sure she'll be relieved. Put a date on the calendar and stick to it, then reassess.

This certainly makes sense to me.

In a WAS/LBS situation, the relationship "balance of power" shifts to the WAS, almost 100% where the LBS can become servile in trying to meet the WAS' needs, not calling them on the carpet for their BS, etc. GAL is supposed to counteract this effect, as are Sandy's 37 rules, but when you get into "early piecing" this is a very easy trap to fall into, where you put your needs aside and focus on her needs exclusively.

I was certainly guilty of this.

If you think about it from her position, there are two problems created: (1) you're putting a lot of pressure on her to rise to the occasion of this new marriage you're "working on", and at the same time (2) you're putting yourself in a "one down" position by making the bigger committment, and "wanting it more"

It's the second one that is the "attraction killer", and the first one that puts up the defenses, or the withdrawal, for fear of failure. If she's afraid she won't measure up to your new standard, it's easier to blame that on you, or just not try, or otherwise withdraw.

One thing MMSLP did have right is that you tend to partner with someone who is at the same level as yourself. This is also discussed in "Passionate Marriage", that we tend to marry people who are at the same level of differentiation, or self-actualization, that we are. It is this balance that makes the relationship liveable.

The biggest challenge in piecing, therefore, is that the LBS needs to reassert their equality in the relationship, which is very tricky business indeed.

Such amazing points. This is exactly what I was trying to say in previous posts but just couldn't.

As an LBS, you can have no expectations, because you're not in a marriage and the WAS feels they owe you nothing. As a "piecing partner", however, you MUST have expectations, and you must have boundaries around having them met that you enforce ruthlessly.

I agree. Setting those boundaries is going to be tricky.

My observations about your summary above is that the times you told your wife to "beat it" are the times you made the most progress. I believe that this is because you are making an implicit statement of your value, and therefore reasserting your place in the relationship as an equal -- that you will not tolerate or accept bad treatment.

It certainly worked in October (when she sent me that letter). I'm not sure how well it worked 6 weeks ago when I asked her to leave. I'm not saying it was right, but I'd be lying if I said part of me did that hoping I'd get the same reaction as I did in October. I think if I just asked her to leave then left it there may have been a different outcome. But I brought up her A and ashamed her, which probably caused her to put her wall back up.

Fear of losing your WAS keeps you in a one-down position. It makes you the first one to give in when there is an argument, it makes you the more accommodating one. When you lose the fear, and decide that you will be okay with or without the marriage, you actually relieve the pressure on your spouse, and make it safer for them to re-engage with you as an equal, and once again give them something to value.

So true.

My very best prescription for you is to take the four week break and just "be". That implies staying away from this site, and anything else that is going to prompt you to dwell on your sitch. Dwelling on it becomes an addiction, and over a long period of time it doesn't help. Do what you want to do, without first thinking about what you "should" be doing.

At that point, after the break, read SSM and have your wife read it to IF sex is still a problem.

Again, so true. This makes complete sense to me.

You have correctly identified that your wife goes to the "no attraction" place as a defense mechanism when she feels she's failing, and then re-frames her prior positive efforts as "trying".

It certainly seems that way.

The reality is more than likely that her positive effort were genuine, and the attraction issue is a reaction to relationship pressure and fear of failure. Let's try turning down the knob on that for a while and see what happens.

I would like to believe this is true.

In the long term view, four weeks is nothing for a meaningful experiment. Are you up for it?

Yes I am up for it and I will take your advise I'm just going to wait a day or two so I can go over these recent posts a few more times.

Accuray...thank you so much for everything. Sorry for over simplifying my answers to this this post, but I feel you said everything for me.

It amazes me how others words can capture exactly what I'm feeling even when I don't know myself. Their words and insight can give me clarity into my own thoughts.

[BC39]

BC39, IMHO I wouldn't worry about the "attraction" statement. Everyone has gotten that talk, both male and female. The women will tell you that it's one thing and the guys another. Either way, there are times when the WAS will say they aren't attracted to you or that you didn't do this or that or a long checklist of faults.

The problem lies within the WAS. You could look like Brad Pitt and they'll say they're not attracted. Yet you meet someone new and they will say you look very attractive. You can't analyze why a WAS says or does something because they don't really understand themselves.

I'm trying not to worry about it. Such valid points.

However, those who do the work and try to understand what marriage is about, gets that passion and "attraction" back. That's what I've seen time and time again. But that's just my two cents.

I'm willing to do whatever it takes. Your "2 cents" is worth more than you know my friend.


Thanks Bond.

[BC39]

Just thinking out loud....

Should I tell her I forgive her? (or some form of this)

I know I'm throwing darts here, but ONE of the possible reasons W has put up this wall could be a result of the discussion of six weeks ago when I got text from OMW. When I shamed her about her A.

We had a great discussion afterward (two days later), but maybe she's holding on to what I said during the emotional convo right after receiving the text.

Maybe she thinks I'll never let it go. Maybe her guilt is contributing to this?

I've told her a few times in the past that "I want to move forward" etc, and my actions certainly go along with that...

But I think I've only said "I forgive you" once and that was during MC when I was kind of prompted to.

I know you guys may say "well, do you actually forgive her?"

The first answer that comes to my mind is "I think so" "I want to".

But then hypocritically I'm hesitant because it feels like I'm doing all the work or making it too easy on her...especially lately...but then I think about that negative cycle Accuray was talking about and that someone has to pay it forward.

I think I'm making this sound a little academic, but you guys usually can articulate it better than I.

Thoughts?

[Accuray]

Should I tell her I forgive her?

I would say "not now" -- hopefully you've done that already at some point? You certainly don't want to hold it over her head or throw it at her at every opportunity. In fact, if you never bring it up again you are best served, speak with your actions.

If you agreed with my comments above, then you see that when you shine your "relationship spotlight" on your wife she retreats/withdraws/puts up the "no attraction" defense. This is because the relationship spotlight / let's make a great marriage / let's check on the pulse of this marriage gives her a fear of failure and she doesn't want to feel inadequate.

Your challenge is to do *nothing* to overtly work on the relationship, and telling her you forgive her would fly directly in the face of that.

I know I'm throwing darts here, but ONE of the possible reasons W has put up this wall could be a result of the discussion of six weeks ago when I got text from OMW. When I shamed her about her A.

Time will heal that, your remarks will not. If anything you should be apologizing for your reaction versus forgiving her, because she didn't do anything to precipitate OMW sending that text to you. That said, don't apologize to her either, just let it go -- you are picking at a scab.

We had a great discussion afterward (two days later), but maybe she's holding on to what I said during the emotional convo right after receiving the text.

Maybe she thinks I'll never let it go. Maybe her guilt is contributing to this?

I'm sure she is, time heals, there is no accelerator for you.

Put it in the rearview, what you focus on expands. By dwelling on it you're keeping the elephant in the room.

But I think I've only said "I forgive you" once and that was during MC when I was kind of prompted to.

If she's not deaf she heard you. Read my prior post that you agreed with -- don't put yourself in the "one down" position and continue to claw after this like you want it more. Restore the balance.

But then hypocritically I'm hesitant because it feels like I'm doing all the work or making it too easy on her...especially lately...but then I think about that negative cycle Accuray was talking about and that someone has to pay it forward.

You can punish her or you can piece your marriage back together -- you can't do both. Which one are you going to do? Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself, it's for you, not for her.

You can't make it "too easy" for the WAS to return, because they are not returning, you're both starting on a new relationship and that's best done if you wipe the slate clean.

Look, I realize there is a tension there between reclaiming your place in the relationship and restoring the balance of power, versus continuing to cater to the WAS and keep the road paved smooth.

The balance between those two things is "the magic path" and you have to figure it out. It's subtle. You reclaim your power and equality in the relationship by recognizing your own value, by establishing your boundaries, and by guarding them ruthlessly and without compromise. You don't regain your power in the relationship by punishing, controlling or score keeping, so there is no need to worry that you're making things too easy. Just don't violate your core principles.

You will erode your power and equality in the relationship if you continue to overtly "work on it", pursue without ever being pursued, always be the first to give in, and give other signs that you "want it" much more than she does.

Take the break. Agree with W that for the next four weeks the two of you are just going to "be" and not have emotional talks, relationship discussions, or anything else. You're both just going to "do your thing" and enjoy yourselves. Go out and get ice cream together, watch some funny TV show, that kind of thing. Don't read any R books, stay away from self-improvement web sites, etc.

Good luck and hope to see you back here after a break.