Emotional Connection and Attraction

[MrBond]

If you didn't tell her that, then maybe you should. HOWEVER, be sure you include the validation of why she did it. Show her compassion and understanding.

[lovethehub]

Just thinking out loud....

Should I tell her I forgive her? (or some form of this)

I know I'm throwing darts here, but ONE of the possible reasons W has put up this wall could be a result of the discussion of six weeks ago when I got text from OMW. When I shamed her about her A.

We had a great discussion afterward (two days later), but maybe she's holding on to what I said during the emotional convo right after receiving the text.

Maybe she thinks I'll never let it go. Maybe her guilt is contributing to this?

I've told her a few times in the past that "I want to move forward" etc, and my actions certainly go along with that...

But I think I've only said "I forgive you" once and that was during MC when I was kind of prompted to.

I know you guys may say "well, do you actually forgive her?"

The first answer that comes to my mind is "I think so" "I want to".

But then hypocritically I'm hesitant because it feels like I'm doing all the work or making it too easy on her...especially lately...but then I think about that negative cycle Accuray was talking about and that someone has to pay it forward.

I think I'm making this sound a little academic, but you guys usually can articulate it better than I.

Thoughts?

As a WAW who had an A (more involved that your W's but I think it's the same), I will tell you that it isn't what you say at all - it is how you act and what you say. She is most likely thinking that you will never let it go and no matter what you say, it won't change what she thinks. Your future behavior will change what she thinks.

[lovethehub]

And I noted the WAW who had an A because my H brought it up a LOT and it made our R take a lot longer!

[workinprogress]

Sounds like I need to read this book, what you wrote hit on quite a few things for me. Also being the one who's desire came and went during our 32 years together, feelings of unmet needs do come into play. As early as when we were dating, situations arose where my spouse ( boyfriend ) at the time, didn't stand up for me or didn't consider my feelings over his family's or friend's feelings. This really hurt and made me feel as if I came second or third. It was and is a real desire killer. It seems as if there is something buried that the other guy met. This is what needs to be addressed, but NOT now. She doesn't sound like she is feeling safe yet. Do you two communicate best verbally or written? Sometimes it is easier to express oneself in writing . This way one may read and re-read without interruptions. Choose words and thoughts carefully, edit and re-write things. Perhaps writing your thoughts about asking her what she needs. Not telling her what your needs are at present. What does she need emotionally, around the home, sexually, and physically? Once her needs are met, you can bet she'll feel more connected to you, and she will be able to step out of herself ( sadness, guilt, withdrawing...) and be able to give. Have you read " His Needs Her Needs" ? As a woman, there were many things the author hit on the head! You are so lucky she is still under your roof!

[BC39]

Struggling right now.

Sorry Accuray, I tried go 4 weeks and just couldn't.

W is acting the same, little to no affection for the last 2 months.

I haven't put up with any of her BS. I'm not being a jerk by any means but there's been a couple times recently she was clearly in the wrong that I called her out on. She apologized both times.

I started to withdraw/distance a week ago, including my affections. Having a hard time continuing to show her affection etc. I'm sure she's noticed but hasn't brought it up.

Feel resentment creeping in.

We haven't had R talk since our bump in the road 2 months ago.

She seems to be making no effort whatsoever to work on our R.

She's friendly with me, we still joke around, we've done many family things together over the last couple months. She still contacts me throughout the day. She stills talks abut getting a dog and doing things to the house etc (but she never talks about anything too far into the future.) Our everyday normal life still SEEMS fine, but I can't help but think of us more as co-parents and roommates at the moment.

I can't help but think of what she wrote to me in that letter in Oct and think she's not doing any of those things again, and that she's being selfish.

I'm not sure what approach I should be taking:

1) Show her affections without expectation

or

2) Try to detach and keep working on myself. (I'm always striving to move forward but I'm honestly not sure what more I can do. I'm typically I pretty modest guy, but, I believe I've 180'd all her past concerns, I GAL, I'm in shape for the first time in my life. I'm a good person, I'm an excellent father, fairly successful)

I did cave one day last week with the affections. I honestly have a hard time keeping my hands off of her. Anyway, I initiated S, she obliged but it was more of a business transaction that S or ML. This is the first time I initiated S in over a month. There has been other times during the last couple months that I've initiated playful sexual flirting and she seemed to be totally fine with it, but I usually do it when there's no actual chance of S (kids are in another room etc)

Do I start asking W questions and bringing up the R?
-Are you happy?
-Do you feel safe talking to me?
-What are your needs?

Do I point out what she's doing now contradicts what she wrote to me in Oct?

Or is all this ^^^^ "shining the relationship spotlight" on her and make her withdraw further? Am I putting myself in a "one down" position.

It seems whatever I'm doing now isn't working.

W had talk with her BF on the weekend. W mentioned she was maybe starting to agree with her that LTR have, what she considers, passion, spark, attraction differences. (I have to qualify that convo a little more as we were rushed)

Its becoming more clear to me that I have a major fear of my intellectual capacity and how it could be a downfall of my M. I don't express myself well here or in general. I'm not sure I paint a proper picture. I forget things as fast as I read them. I'm all over the place. Don't know which approach to take or how to handle my sitch although I've been reading relationship material non stop for a year. I read all Accurays past posts and couldn't help but think that him and most of the people on his thread have more intellect in their pinky fingers than I have. I'll end self deprecating honest moment there.

I know I just need to be the best me possible and not worry about W's actions etc but its easier said than done at times.

Anyway, to some it up...I love my wife. I want nothing more than to get the connection back with her. I want her to feel loved. I want her to be happy and fulfilled. I'm not sure what she's thinking. I'm not sure what she wants or if she could even explain it to me.

I obviously have a lot of conflicting thoughts bouncing around in my head.

[MrBond]

What things has SHE done to work on the M? Has she gone to C? Read books, etc.?

[BC39]

Lately, not much, from MY perspective. Unless she's doing something behind the scenes I don't know about it.

She agreed a month ago to go back to MC. I then agreed to take the advice on here to take a break from any R stuff so I haven't brought it back up to W.

I sent her a link 2 months ago to download a summary booklet of Project Happily Ever After. When I checked back with her on it a few weeks after she hadn't read it yet.

Around the same time she filled out the LL quiz, but she answered it based on "her ideals" not what she thinks now. I asked her to re-do it. She hasn't got back to me with it yet. I spoke to you briefly about it recently and at the time you suggested I just leave it for now, which I did.

[MrBond]

Then now would be the time to see if she would do a M retreat. Maybe not C. Joe Beam is supposed to have a great one and of course MWD would be the best.

[Accuray]

BC39, there is not problem with your intellect. Your writing is fine. Like any situation, we're looking at yours through a keyhole, we only see what you disclose to us based on what YOU think matters. You may be missing things that others would take as very positive signs. I find it very helpful when people transcribe conversations because you get a bit more of an unfiltered view.

In answer to your questions above, I would NOT do any temperature checking at this point, nor would I do R talks.

90%+ of communication is non-verbal, so you already know what she's feeling, she's letting you know quite clearly. By pushing her to articulate it and examine her feelings more closely, you solidify them and further polarize your positions.

If she was ready to work on the R, you'd know it. She would have read the book you gave her, she would have done the revised LL's survey. She didn't do either -- she's communicating with you.

Look, she's not moving out. She's still there. She gave you sex when you asked for it. She's hanging in there. She may get to the point where she wants to re-engage to your satisfaction, she may re-engage but not to the extent you need, and she may never re-engage.

Based on the trauma you've gone through, this is as much or more about you right now than it is about her.

If you had never had a relationship problem, how she's treating you right now probably wouldn't bother you. It bothers you because of what you've gone through, and because you desperately want to feel safe, reassured, and attractive right now to help you recover from what you've gone through.

You're in a state of "elevated needs" and your W is in a state of "diminished capacity", and those two together cause tension.

The harder you try to pull her toward you, the more inclined she'll be to push away.

If you take your eye off the ball, and at least *appear* to reduce your needs, you give her space to lean in -- or not.

In the long term view, things WILL get better, either because you get comfortable with things as they are, or because they improve. Either way it will get easier.

If it gets *good enough* for you is the million dollar question. If it doesn't, you have to leave. The act of your leaving *may* motivate her to want to do the work, and it may not and she may never come back. What you can rely upon is that you will be okay either way. You need to understand that and get comfortable with it, and that's where you get your mojo back. You don't *need* her, you *want* her. That's an important distinction. We can live without the things we want, we can't live without the things we need.

The more space you can give RIGHT NOW, the better off you will be longer term.

I continue to think that taking a break is your best course *if* you can pull it off. Your emotions may not let you.

I almost always agree 100% with MrBond, but in this case I would not push for an M retreat, nor would I ask her to read books or anything else. I would enjoy having her as a friend, roommate, and co-parent for now, and see what develops down the road.

Get yourself some IC, work out your feelings there and spare your wife.

Often we think that everything we say or do in this situation has incredible weight. That if we say the wrong thing we've BLOWN IT, or that if we do something right we should be REWARDED. If the weighting of your current doings is an 8, try dialing it down to a 6.

[BC39]

Thanks Accuray, helpful as always...

W instigated a R talk last night. We were out for dinner for our 11th wedding anniversary.

We were having a nice dinner, then right out of the blue she said she felt she needed to talk. She never does this.

I'm going to do my best to summarize the details and transcribe the convo. This is obviously not word for word and may not be in order.

(I was very compassionate and understanding. W teared up off and on throughout. There was no anger or contempt at any point)

W: I wanted to bring it up because I know its been obvious the last couple months and I don't think its fair to you to not discuss it. I've been struggling. I've felt like I haven't wanted to try. I don't like talking about our problems. I feel like we've only ever been good at surface conversation, it doesn't get any deeper than that (I actually mentioned this to her a while ago, but I just kept my mouth shut) I don't want to go to a MC because I don't think there's anymore they can do. I didn't even want to bring this (R) up because I don't like hurting you, I want to protect you.

Me: I understand. It must have been hard for you to bring it up, but I'm glad you did.

W: Thanks. I still feel the same about the intimacy. When were alone it doesn't feel right, I get anxious about S. I just want R to be the same as it is for now.

Me: It has been obvious lately that's how you've been feeling, thats why I haven't said anything. I don't want to pressure you into doing anything. If you want things to be the same as they are for now then thats what we'll do. I want you to feel safe talking to me. Do you?

W: Yes I do. I don't want to hurt you. I don't think this is fair to you, I'm not sure how long I'd expect you to do this.

Me: Obviously being your roommate is not my ideal, but I'm trying to be patient. Have I thought about how long I'm willing to do this? Yes, I have, but I'm not sure what the answer is. I continue to fight for this M and our family with a passion I've never felt before. I continue on my journey to better myself.

W: I can see that, you've done amazing. That's one of the things thats frustrated me. You've made all these changes and I still feel the same. You're an amazing person, father and husband...you always have been. We have an amazing and blessed life. Why do I still feel this way?

Me: I don't want to discount your feelings, but its because of the things your talking about that I think you, or we, need to see someone. As I've said before, you're not going to wake up tomorrow morning with new feelings. You/we need new skills and a path to follow. We, or you, can't do that alone. I've been educating myself about this daily for the last year.

W: I've been reading too. (She said mostly Google searches)

Me: I'm glad to hear that. It may be beneficial to read books.

W: Talking with you about all this makes me feel better, I'm glad we're talking. We should schedule times to talk about it.

Me: That sounds good. I'm a little concerned what your expectations are. You understand that "in love" feelings change in a long term marriage right? (I went on to explain "Loving Attachment" etc)

W: I understand but don't agree with all of it. I feel I want "some" passion or deeper feeling.

Me: Do you fear losing me?

W: I don't think I do. I feel so bad for saying that. I think if you left tomorrow I know I'd be okay.

Me: What do you want?

W: I'm not sure what I want.

Me: Do you have needs I'm not meeting? Is there something I could be doing?

W: I don't think so.

W: I'm thinking long term...10, 15, 20 years from now.

Me: What do you want?

W: I want to "crave" someone.

Me: Again, I don't want to discount your feelings but I'm not sure you're being realistic.

W: I don't know. Look at some of the people around us. (She mentioned her parents, my parents, my sister and BIL, and our best friends) I know when my dad leaves for more than a couple days my mom misses him. We've never even had that opportunity because we've always worked (job) together. We've always got along at work, but again, it was always surface convo, we're good at that. But then when we're at home its still surface convo.

Me: You do understand that all those couples (I'm not sure what she talks about with her parents) all have their own issues right? That they may have worked harder at their R and/or communicated better?

W: I understand I can't just pick things I want from other relationships.

Me: I said this since the beginning (BD) but these are things we can work on. We can change our M dynamic. I want the same things. Our old marriage is dead, its gone, it wasn't working. We need to take all the goods things from it, put them in a chest for safe keeping and move forward.

W: I'm so thankful for the way that you talk to me during these talks.

Me: I'm glad. Listen, I have my fears too. I fear that by outpouring all my love to you and being the one in this R that is "doing more work" than the other that I'm making it too easy on you. I will fight to the death for this family, but my love isn't unconditional. If you do what you did (EA) again, I'm gone. If you refuse to work on this M long term or treat me poorly etc, I'm gone.

W: I know

Me: Do you still hold any feelings for OM?

W: Absolutely not. Truth is I never really did. I haven't really thought of him.

Me: You're not chasing the "feelings" you got from that R?

W: Not at all. But when that happened all my feelings about our M that I was dealing with internally for so long all turned to concrete at the same time (she told me this at BD) and I haven't been able to get my feelings back.

Me: The thing that happened 2 months ago with getting text from OMW and what happened the days after...does that have anything to do with how you've been feeling?

W: Not at all. I haven't really thought about that either.

She then thanked me again for talking with her and that it made her feel better. We left and went outside. She gave me a big hug and told me she loves me.

We had a couple hours to kill so she asked what I wanted to do.

I said we're not going home to have a bunch of S? Thats kind of what I took from that convo, did I not read that right? (I use humour after serious talks, I know it may sound strange on paper but you'd have to understand our R) She found it very funny.


So we pick up D7 and S5 and head home.

(I hope this ins't too much info or too detailed, and its kind of embarrassing, but it may help understanding the dynamic.)

W get into the bath. When she gets out she lays on our bed and kids get into the tub.

I take a peak under her towel and she laughs. I start to touch her and she lets me. She giggles, puts the towel back over her and says "one step at a time mister".

I said I had an idea. We should have crazy S everyday for the next 30 days...that will fix everything. Like a scientific experiment. (She's laughing a lot by this point)

The kids are in our (master bedroom) bath, so I go shut the door. She smiles. I said all I can think about is ripping that towel off you right now so go change or I can't be held accountable for my actions.

She got up, dropped the towel and walked around to the other side of the bed, and "waited" for me. We had S, then she laid in my arms for a couple minutes.

We got up this morning, I held her in my arms and had a couple playful touches. All smiles.



Look forward to your feedback friends....