Circles no more

[shouldistillhope]

Thumpered,

Everything you said in your post to me makes complete sense. Last night my BIL and i stayed up late having a couple beers and talking about things. I really enjoy and get a lot out of our talks since he is a counselor but i also feel like i am taking advantage of him a bit.

He mentioned a lot of the same things you did by saying i can't expect everything to go back to normal or trying to get to my new normal to fast. I am struggling with my patience. I mentioned that it is hard for me to wait for answers that don't seem to present themselves. I know i need to give up trying to control her and have done a good job, but i can't seem to give up trying to control my future. He gave some good advice by telling my that the only thing i am guaranteed is the present. We are not guarnteed a tomorrow or a future, the only thing we can do is plan for it.

I doing my best to survive, but i have to learn not to try and rush things in my life. I get my kids for the first time in two weeks and i am so excited to see them again. We have lots of things planned for the weekend.

I feel conflicted as to whether i want to be a stander and try and work things out with her in the future, or whether i should go on dates and see if something else works out. I know i am not ready for a relationship right now though.

[Thumpered]

Why the hurry to stand or walk, when the time comes you wont even need to think about it, it wont be a decision it will be a response.

Right now, your standing, nothing wrong with that. Waffling is normal too, your boarding on the acceptance stage, and that can be a long drawn out stage, but don't feel like you HAVE to make a decision. It will happen when it happens.

For now, I think its important that you just stay positive for the sitch, cause your def. not ready to date it sounds like. Your attitude projects thru on all your interactions. Just keep DB'n, 180, 37 rules and most importantly PMA!! when not feeling the pma, you have to at least act "as if" even thou for now we both know its more of a façade. You'll get there, just don't be in a rush, your wife knows you better than you think she does.

Keep on keeping on. Good luck.

[shouldistillhope]

Had a great weekend with my kids. One of the best since all this crap started. I took them fishing for the first time, we went to a baseball game, we played football and lit fireworks. All guy things, and it was a blast.

Yesterday XW texted me asking if i would drop the boys off at her house, or if i could meet somewhere in the middle since it is a 35 mile drive each way. I told her i wanted more time with them, and i have to drive all the way out there to pick them up on Friday's and i told her that it was only fair for her to come and get them on Sunday's. Maybe i should have compromised a bit with her, but I also don't want to make this easy for her either. Maybe i came across as being controlling, but that was the decision i made, and now i have to live with it.

This started an interesting string of texts from her that are too long to put on here, so i will just give some of the highlights.

We had a bit of an argument between texts when i received this from her.

W: maybe call me sometime instead of texting, then i don't need to read into your texts. You always try to find something wrong with me every time you text. So i guess, what has gotten into you?

M: Why are you interpreting my texts as me finding something wrong with you? This entire time i have shouldered the blame for most of this, but i was willing to work things out with you. Please stop turning everything i say around. Justify things however you want, but i have had to make changes for myself and this is the new me. I have no reason to argue with you anymore. I am no longer angry or scared. If you want to talk things over when you get here, let me know. I am more than willing. I refuse to start arguing with you so that you can tell everyone what a jerk i am. I busted my nuts for you trying to get the house done, i wasn't a perfect husband, i didn't treat you right all the time, but i didn't know what you needed me to do. Its not your fault, but i would have liked a chance to do better.

W: I don't tell anyone about you or how you act. I would like a plan so this doesn't happen anymore. I don't like you thinking one thing, and me thinking another. That was one of our marriage issues. I like plans. You also mentioned at one time about a different job and i would like to know how that stands because that does involve me from what you said before. To many things unknown in all aspects of my life right now and i don't like not being organized.

M: Yes, those were issues. I wish i would have handled things differently with you because maybe things could have been different. You always meant the world to me, i never cared as deeply for anyone as i cared for you. But now i have been forced to re think everything i ever though about marriage. I guess that means i need to go in a different direction. I would love to have the chance to talk to you sometime in the future, but things are different now.

She showed up to pick up the kids and we had some small talk. She mentioned that she is going to get a seperate phone for the kids to call me because i never answer when they try to get ahold of me. She mentioned the reason she thinks i never answer when i see her number is because i think it is her calling. We smiled at each other after that. I said goodbye to my kids and i then proceeded to give the top of her head a quick rub and tell her goodbye.

Can someone help me pick this apart a bit? I am not sure post D exactly how i am supposed to react to her anymore.

I texted her this morning giving her some details about my potential new career and then i apologized to giving her a quick rub on her head and told her i made a bad decision. I haven't yet heard any replies.

I am not trying to mind read here, but i got the impression that she is very confused and unsure of what the future will bring.

I am now fighting the urge to call her tonight and ask her if she wants to meet for dinner to discuss anything regarding the kids or our jobs. I am not going to ask her yet though, that is why i need someone to talk me down from this a bit.

[shouldistillhope]

I have been having a bit of anxiety the last couple days, and i am not sure where it is coming from. I have been trying to get out and ride mountain bike and do things with friends, but they are also busy with their families so that can get hard to do at times also. They at least take time out to check on me though which is nice.

So back to the anxiety part. I think have been reading so many articles about reconciliation after D and have been getting too many differing opinions and points of view as to how to handle going about trying to establish a new relationship with XW.

So a little advice and help is needed here to help me with my information overload.

My XW has texted me and i have been trying not to read too much into anything, but i believe she is having a hard time with what the future has in store for her. She was always one who needed a concrete plan to get her through the day or week. She didn't like not having a clear path. I haven't offered her any advice because i feel that is what she needs to work through on her own, but i also wonder in regards to a possible reconciliation now that we are divorced if i am supposed to reach out to her and just invite her out for pizza or some other fun event?

I am having a hard time being friendly with her right now and for the last couple of years of our M, i was the one who was always on the grouch side. Should i put a smile on my face when we are exchanging the kids and act all happy even though i am more confused than ever?

Part of me thinks that maybe i should wait a couple months, part of me thinks i should wait until she asks me out again (which i am not sure will ever happen) and part of me wants to ask her to dinner in a couple weeks. How do things change after a D?

Some of the other articles i have been reading say not to wait too long or you might lose them forever. I guess that if that is what is going to happen, she wouldn't have considered it anyway, but i don't know.

If any of you have had any luck with reconciliation post D, would you be willing to share any pointers or advice you had on what worked or what didn't work? What were the timelines? I know every sitch is different, but i feel like i don't want to miss a window of opportunity.

Thanks.

[Mimi00]

W: maybe call me sometime instead of texting, then i don't need to read into your texts. You always try to find something wrong with me every time you text. So i guess, what has gotten into you?

When you feel ready, maybe you should follow her suggestion and call sometimes when plans concerning the kids need to be made, instead of texting.

It could be a way to work on communication skills and making sure you are both on the same page concerning your kids.

W: I don't tell anyone about you or how you act. I would like a plan so this doesn't happen anymore. I don't like you thinking one thing, and me thinking another. That was one of our marriage issues. I like plans. You also mentioned at one time about a different job and i would like to know how that stands because that does involve me from what you said before. To many things unknown in all aspects of my life right now and i don't like not being organized.

M: Yes, those were issues. I wish i would have handled things differently with you because maybe things could have been different. You always meant the world to me, i never cared as deeply for anyone as i cared for you. But now i have been forced to re think everything i ever though about marriage. I guess that means i need to go in a different direction. I would love to have the chance to talk to you sometime in the future, but things are different now.

In my opinion, try to stay away from this sort of talk. #1 no relationship talk past/present #2 it was kind of negative and you should be showing her a positive and happy you.

If she likes plans to be made, maybe that's a 180 opportunity. When it comes to dealing w/ her and the kids, learn how to come up with a plan and present it to her, or work together with her on the planning.

It may make things less stressful on you both.

I said goodbye to my kids and i then proceeded to give the top of her head a quick rub and tell her goodbye.

Can someone help me pick this apart a bit? I am not sure post D exactly how i am supposed to react to her anymore.

I texted her this morning giving her some details about my potential new career and then i apologized to giving her a quick rub on her head and told her i made a bad decision. I haven't yet heard any replies.

Is rubbing her head a bad thing, or was that an affectionate thing? If it's an affectionate touch that came natural to you, why apologize? Try your best to relax when you see her, smile, treat her kindly, as you would a friend. If that entails non-sexual touching at times cool, as long as she doesn't seem to react negatively to it.

Was texting her about your potential job & apologizing necessary?
Try to stick to only contacting her about plans for the kids and anything that's really important that she needs to know.

[shouldistillhope]

Thanks Mimi,

Maybe i need to do a better job of thinking things through when i receive texts from her. I try to stay calm, but it seems like she is trying to coerce me into a negative reaction so she can continue to justify her actions. I might be mind reading a bit on that, but i sometimes wonder why she wants to turn everything i say around.

I have been battling through this since just after Christmas, and i just don't see any hope. Yet i keep telling others on here to have hope. Maybe that is where my anxiety lies since i just want a sign or something to fall out of the sky and hit me on the head telling me i am doing things the right way, or the wrong way, or anything at all. I feel like i am pounding my head into a wall looking for something that isn't there and that is why i am questioning whether or not post D if there is anything i should do differently.

I struggle with wanting to ask her out to a casual dinner so we can see if things could be different, but i am just unsure of when the right time is, or if i am supposed to wait until she makes the first move. She always wanted and needed more attention from me, so that is why i feel like i should go this route. But something is telling me to wait, and then and hour later the anxiety returns.

What a crazy life we all have.

[AnotherStander]

W: maybe call me sometime instead of texting, then i don't need to read into your texts. You always try to find something wrong with me every time you text. So i guess, what has gotten into you?

M: Why are you interpreting my texts as me finding something wrong with you? This entire time i have shouldered the blame for most of this, but i was willing to work things out with you. Please stop turning everything i say around. Justify things however you want, but i have had to make changes for myself and this is the new me. I have no reason to argue with you anymore. I am no longer angry or scared. If you want to talk things over when you get here, let me know. I am more than willing. I refuse to start arguing with you so that you can tell everyone what a jerk i am. I busted my nuts for you trying to get the house done, i wasn't a perfect husband, i didn't treat you right all the time, but i didn't know what you needed me to do. Its not your fault, but i would have liked a chance to do better.

That reads really passive/ aggressive to me and is also the opposite of validating her feelings and emotions. This would have been a more appropriate response:

I can tell I've upset you, I'm sorry. You're right, something always seems to get lost in the translation in texting. I'll call you shortly so we can discuss this.

Your W is expressing her feelings in the above. What you need to realize is she doesn't want you to agree/ disagree/ explain/ justify/ etc. She just wants you to seek to understand her feelings. If you acknowledge her feelings then the situation quickly defuses.

M: Yes, those were issues. I wish i would have handled things differently with you because maybe things could have been different. You always meant the world to me, i never cared as deeply for anyone as i cared for you. But now i have been forced to re think everything i ever though about marriage. I guess that means i need to go in a different direction. I would love to have the chance to talk to you sometime in the future, but things are different now.

I understand you're post-D, but DB'ing is a lifelong process. You should practice DB'ing with all the women in your life, even your XW. Part of this is being a great LISTENER. She doesn't care about your feelings on M and she doesn't believe hollow words about what you should have done differently. She wants you to listen to her and really hear. Validate her feelings. Also don't tell her what you should have done differently, or how different you are now, etc. Just SHOW her your differences. WAS's don't believe words, they only believe consistent, long-term actions.

She mentioned that she is going to get a seperate phone for the kids to call me because i never answer when they try to get ahold of me.

Is this true? If so, are you doing this as part of going dark? Going dark doesn't mean ignore your spouse. It just means not to initiate contact. If they contact you it's fine to answer, especially when kids are involved.

i then proceeded to give the top of her head a quick rub and tell her goodbye.

I don't understand that gesture, sounds like petting a dog?

Can someone help me pick this apart a bit? I am not sure post D exactly how i am supposed to react to her anymore.

You don't react to her. You live your life and let her live hers. Treat her with respect and dignity. Don't make demands of her, work things out with her. I don't think you're being unreasonable in asking her to drive to your place to pick up the kids if you have to drive to hers to get them, but I think you could have negotiated it instead of presenting it as a demand.

I am now fighting the urge to call her tonight and ask her if she wants to meet for dinner to discuss anything regarding the kids or our jobs.

Forget dinner, just call her to discuss it.

[AnotherStander]

I try to stay calm, but it seems like she is trying to coerce me into a negative reaction so she can continue to justify her actions.

Strangely I read the exchange as just the opposite, it sounded to me like you were the one trying to start an argument. Your W seemed to be expressing some valid concerns, and instead of addressing them you launched an emotional tirade back at her.

i just want a sign or something to fall out of the sky and hit me on the head telling me i am doing things the right way, or the wrong way, or anything at all.

Are you still actively reading DR? Keep reading it, it's the best way to stay focused. I've read all of it several times and parts of it many, many times.

I struggle with wanting to ask her out to a casual dinner so we can see if things could be different, but i am just unsure of when the right time is, or if i am supposed to wait until she makes the first move.

You should absolutely back off. Your R with her should be "friendly neighbor". Treat her like you would a good neighbor. Be kind and considerate, chat with her when the opportunity is there but don't go out of your way to throw yourself in front of her.

[shouldistillhope]

Stander,

Yes, it certainly appears that i have a lot of work to do in how i handle and react to things regarding XW. After reading your reply, i can definitely see how she would have no interest in wanting to discuss anything with me because i sure seem to come off like an ass. It is things like this that caused problems in our marriage. I wasn't happy at times in our M either, so this is how i chose to react to her.

I felt i was never a priority to her when we were married so in turn, i started treating her badly because i wasn't getting what i felt i needed from her either. In hindsight, if i would have been the person she met, it might have made her want to show me more love and attention. I just want a chance to try and do things differently, but if i don't figure out how to handle myself during these types of interactions, that chance will never come.

I have so much to learn yet, and until i can make those changes and stop being so stubborn, i will lose her forever if i haven't already.

It is just starting to feel like time is slipping away and i am losing my window of opportunity, but if i don't start now, i am doomed no matter who i end up with.

[AnotherStander]

Yes, it certainly appears that i have a lot of work to do in how i handle and react to things regarding XW. After reading your reply, i can definitely see how she would have no interest in wanting to discuss anything with me because i sure seem to come off like an ass. It is things like this that caused problems in our marriage. I wasn't happy at times in our M either, so this is how i chose to react to her.

I felt i was never a priority to her when we were married so in turn, i started treating her badly because i wasn't getting what i felt i needed from her either.

I can definitely relate to that last line especially. I wasn't getting my needs fulfilled in our M, so I would tend to pout and/ or lash out at W in odd ways. It's great that you can recognize this, because that is the biggest step in doing a 180 on it. If you're texting or emailing and you type something up, give yourself a few minutes and then read it again before sending. I do this now and often when I reread it I realize the tone is way off and I have to revise it before sending.

I just want a chance to try and do things differently, but if i don't figure out how to handle myself during these types of interactions, that chance will never come.

Validation is an art form and unfortunately there are not a lot of resources on it. Retrouvaille gave me invaluable insight into validation techniques, I wish there was a book out there that covered the material! But in a nutshell, just be a great listener. Make lots of eye contact, do 80% listening and 20% talking, remove distractions (turn off TV, radio, etc.), ask questions that show you're paying attention and to encourage her to keep sharing, ask her about her feelings (that sounds frustrating, is that how you feel?), validate her feelings (I hear you saying how angry you are, I can understand why you would feel that way). Men suck at validation and women are really good at it. That's why women seek out their female friends when they want to gripe, because their female friends don't try to fix them, they just sympathize and validate. We on the other hand want to fix things, so we tell them what they should do to fix their emotions instead of seeking to understand them. But that is not what they want/ need from us. Make sense?

It is just starting to feel like time is slipping away and i am losing my window of opportunity, but if i don't start now, i am doomed no matter who i end up with.

You're barely half a year since BD, you've got plenty of time. The sitches here that have resolved usually took well over a year, and in a lot of cases multiple years. Don't beat yourself up, just be patient and work on those 180's