Emotional Connection and Attraction

[BC39]

Thanks LTH,

Are you suggesting I should detach?

Thats the tough part for me. She's obviously missing something from this marriage. I' not sure I can find out what that is by detaching.

I mentioned it above, but the few times W and I have had glimpses of passion and intimacy is after we have a major R talk. There has to be something to be said about that. I'm not sure if W has picked up on that trend.

I agree that keeping the status quo and acting that all is well is not a good idea. I do need to try something different. But I'm not sure I'm going to regain any intimacy or passion by detaching.

Me becoming the WAS may be a motivator for her to look inward, but I'm not there yet. Sometimes I wish I was.

[Accuray]

BC39,

Lovethehub has given you another vote for separate now and head the other way is the fastest way back. I don't think it's the only way but I do think it's the fastest and most direct way.

If you choose to stay now, please do this for me: come back in 12 months, 're-read what I and lovethehub wrote above and share your perspective. I will be interested to learn if you feel you should have left.

I should have separated when I was where you are, did not, and have paid the price. I believe we would have been back together now with my W committed and happier than she is now. It would have been the quickest and best path and is not giving up

[BC39]

Thanks Accuray,

I must be interpreting LTH post differently. I took that she meant I should pull back and detach.

Again, I'm not saying I disagree with you. I've thought myself that a major shake up might be the answer to HOPEFULLY give her some perspective.

I believe that despite what she said the other night, that she would miss me... but I feel that wouldn't fix our underlying problem.

I should have separated when I was where you are, did not, and have paid the price. I believe we would have been back together now with my W committed and happier than she is now. It would have been the quickest and best path and is not giving up

It's not my intention to rehash any bad memories or regret for you, but can you elaborate on why you thought it would have helped you in your sitch? Unless I missed it, your last thread just seamed to stop, then your sig line reads "piecing again" 9/12, what happened?

[BC39]

Maybe it's time to do something different. Have you done anything to incite any passion in her?

This may seem like an elementary question, but what do you suggest I do to incite passion in my sitch?

What does intimacy and passion look like to you?

What's your thoughts on the separation recommendation? (a quick reminder that W did separate last May for 6 weeks)

.................................................

So this weekend went well.

W wanted to go to some places for ideas on home decor for our house.

The puppy thing came back up again.

W offered to massage my sore arm last night while we watched TV. She kissed my hand a couple times.

We laid in bed yesterday morning and I caressed her face and hair. At one point I asked her "does this make you uncomfortable?" She said "no" and seemed to enjoy it. I do stuff like this often.

She made me a special breakfast for our anniversary on Saturday.

This morning she left for work, gave me a kiss, and said "I Love you". (the "i love you's" have been used sparingly lately)

Is little stuff like this ^^^^ not intimacy? I'm not sure what intimacy looks like to my W, I haven't asked her that, but I will.

We took kids for a walk Sunday. They were complaining about a bunch of things. W said "maybe we should be thinking about how lucky and blessed we are in this family, sometimes your just never happy". I had to bite my tongue.

I understand this is a very naive (and possibly stupid) thing to say, but I almost don't believe my W when she said she didn't think she'd fear losing me.

Despite our issues we're still best friends, she still "loves" me. She still contacts me numerous times throughout the day for mundane things, she still wants to do things together (see above about our weekend). How does someone have no issue with losing that? I know she's confused....I mean her major reasoning statement during our R talk was that she "wanted to crave someone". It almost sounds immature. You'd think she would have to understand that finding someone to crave wouldn't be difficult. Its all the qualities that she says I already have that are the difficult things to find.

I may be trying to rationalize the irrational...I don't know.

[BC39]

One small note I forgot to mention.

3 months ago I went on a 4 day trip. My W contacted me numerous times (even though I was trying to use the distance as a healthy break). My second day there she TM "I'm not used to not talking to you for a whole day, can you tell me how you're making out?"

The night I got home my W best friend told me that she asked W to hang out that night. She said my W said "absence really does make the heart grow fonder:, I can't hang out tonight because I want to spend time with BC39".

That was 3 months ago.

[Accuray]

LoveTheHub says that she was 1/3 in and 2/3 out of the marriage when she claimed to be piecing, but didn't really commit until her H became the WAS. That's what I was pointing out. That is a theme I see here time and again -- and many people will live in that limbo of a semi-committed spouse for a LONG TIME.

I believe we all have a vision of the marriage we want, and can break that down into very specific things we'd like that can be expressed in terms of behaviors. Assuming you are rational and emotionally healthy, these for the basis of reasonable expectations for your relationship. You should expect to be treated with respect, dealt with honestly, receive affection on some recurring basis, engage in sex with an at least tolerable frequency etc., and you should expect to hold up your end of the bargain to make sure these things continue, and so your spouse will also get what they want and need. That's the deal.

When you have a crisis in your marriage and come to DB, your overriding objective is usually "save my marriage" expressed in terms of "get my spouse back". Therefore, you really ask and expect nothing of the WAS, but contribute yourself on all cylinders and fully commit to the success of the marriage.

For those who reach that point, and have a spouse where the affair ended and the spouse is at least *saying* they want the marriage to work, there is usually a huge gap between the functioning of your marriage at the start of piecing and your desired vision of your marriage. As a stupid example, say that you have 10 things you want from marriage. Often at the start of piecing you're only getting one or two of them, whereas you are probably delivering 8 out of 10 to the former WAS.

This is compounded by the fact that during crisis, the LBS tends to do lots of relationship research and work -- reading books, seeing therapists, etc., so the bar for what a good marriage looks like is often much higher than the pre-bomb equilibrium you had with your spouse. In other words, getting back to "where you were" is no longer good enough -- and as evidence your marriage fell apart before. The former WAS, in contrast, has done none of this work or self-improvement, so in some cases they're just thinking they'll settle for what you had pre-bomb. Now the two of you have very different goal lines, and without shared objectives, you can't succeed together.

So in answer to your question "What happened to Accuray?"

Two years ago W said she wanted our marriage to work out and that she no longer wanted a divorce. We went through a brief honeymoon period where we were aligned, and it was wonderful from my perspective. Over the next year, however, she slowly started to withdraw. If we did 12 marriage-friendly things in month one, she reduced it to 11 in month two, then 10 in month three, until eventually I felt we were getting back to exactly where we were pre-bomb, made an issue of it, and get ILYBINILWY again.

Now at that point, there was no longer an affair, there was no longer a divorce request. My support system believed that things were going well, the kids were happy, we had made longer term plans around expensive vacations, home remodeling projects, etc. etc., so my point to you is that it would have been 100x harder for me to separate at that point, than it would have been after the initial bomb, and each passing month makes it harder because your spouse is no longer saying they want to leave, so it's all 100% on you if you move out.

So over time you can slowly start to rebuild the marriage and getting back the things you need to be happy, but if you need 10 you might only ever get to 4, or 5, and will need to decide if you can live with that and make peace with what's missing and not be miserable.

In many books and therapy sessions there's an assumption that if you can meet your spouse's needs, and clearly communicate your own, and your needs are reasonable, that your spouse will want to meet your needs as well -- but one thing I've learned is that is not always true. In a former WAS situation, the WAS can completely understand what you need, agree that they are getting what they need, but still tell you "too bad, I'm not doing it"

So this limbo of having a "partially fulfilling marriage" can carry on for a long, long, long time, and over time will become less painful, because you'll get used to it. It will become the norm, you'll mourn the things you're not getting, move beyond them, and may again find happiness -- OR -- your resentment will grow and YOU will become the WAS, and the situation will reverse.

I have seen time again on DB that when the LBS *truly* drops the rope and walks away when they are not getting the marriage they want, AND they've done the work necessary to be the best spouse they can be, the WAS usually (but not always) returns at some point. But the rope must be *completely* dropped, the WAS must be convinced that the LBS is "gone for good", and I don't think you can fake that.

So what I'm saying to you is that I recognize elements of my history in your sitch, and that I have taken the slow road ahead of you, which is to proceed with an uncommitted spouse who really has one foot in and one foot out, and is not willing to work with you to deliver what you need, and is confused about their own feelings, but willing to "stay", versus willing to "engage".

If I could turn the clock back, I should have legally separated and moved out, or had her move out, so that we were living separately, and I should have continued to DB with 100% focus on me and 0% focus on her. Maybe she would come back, maybe she wouldn't, but if she did, it would be on mutual terms and according to my standards for re-engagement, and if I had pursued that path, that would have been much more painful in the short term, I would have been MUCH happier in the long term, either with her or with someone else.

Do not accept a consolation prize marriage, you're worth more than that.

Acc

[lovethehub]

BC39,

Accuray has written an amazing post and is 100% correct. I know you know deep in your heart if your W is fully committed or not. If she isn't, you have to take what you can from the above post and learn from it.

Despite our issues we're still best friends, she still "loves" me. She still contacts me numerous times throughout the day for mundane things, she still wants to do things together (see above about our weekend). How does someone have no issue with losing that? I know she's confused....I mean her major reasoning statement during our R talk was that she "wanted to crave someone". It almost sounds immature. You'd think she would have to understand that finding someone to crave wouldn't be difficult. Its all the qualities that she says I already have that are the difficult things to find.

Do not be fooled by this. I still called my H many, many times a day, texted and said I loved him, had frequent sex, went on vacations alone with him and talked about the future all while trying to convince myself this was what I wanted and really feel it instead of pretending. I too was "confused", for years. My H gave me many bombs but always came back w/in a few weeks w/o talking about it. I know his expectations were that things would get better and I would suddenly be the S he wanted but I had no reason to change.

As for wanting to crave someone, we all want that. Without reading the books, people think it is gone because they love you but aren't in love. Is it immature? Not really, it is just misguided thinking, a belief they can find it again with someone else and sustain it next time. It isn't reality but many, many people leave their M's in search of it.

Is she in or out? If she is in, you will feel it. If she is only partially in, you know it too and then you have to decide if that is good enough.

Is there anyone on here who was partially in for years and then decided to be 100% in and make the necessary changes just because? Without the LBS becoming the WAW? If so, let us know how you came to that point!

[Accuray]

Yep, it's very tempting to look at the sum of the bits you're getting and try to convince yourself that your spouse is really *in* when in fact they are *out* and deep down you know it.

My W was expert at figuring out what the minimum was she needed to contribute, and doing exactly that. Painful way to live my friend.

[etc]

If I could turn the clock back, I should have legally separated and moved out, or had her move out, so that we were living separately, and I should have continued to DB with 100% focus on me and 0% focus on her. Maybe she would come back, maybe she wouldn't, but if she did, it would be on mutual terms and according to my standards for re-engagement, and if I had pursued that path, that would have been much more painful in the short term, I would have been MUCH happier in the long term, either with her or with someone else.

This advice is priceless. I need to become this strong. I feel like my sitch is just gradually leading to a D because I continue to hold onto bits of good interactions as evidence of change toward R. Deep down, I know I need to let go before anything real can happen. We're separated, but I'm still clinging to W. I need to figure out how to move on yet still love unconditionally. I need my 180s and GAL activities to have no connection to what W will think. Is this really as complicated as it seems?

ETC

[BC39]

Thanks so much Accuray and LTH. I want to take a couple days to really go over these last couple posts before I respond.

I'd appreciate anyone else's thoughts and opinions on this approach.

Bond you out here? HopefullStill?