Unlearning conflict avoidance 5

[Accuray]

Agree with Bond, I feel like we're running around this three for the third or fourth time. When your W makes nasty statements like this, she is baiting you and challenging you to stand up for yourself. If you don't respond, or respond in a passive-aggressive fashion, you FAIL THE TEST.

She WANTS YOU TO ARGUE AND STAND UP FOR YOURSELF.

For example, when she left the phone book on your desk, and you left it on the floor, that was passive aggressive. What she wants you to do is say "Hey, W, go put that phone book away, you can't leave that crap on my desk!"

When she says your shirt is ugly, she wants you to say "I wear what I like"

When she didn't want you to put the map on your wall and you did it anyway, that was passive aggressive, you're much better served by confronting her and saying, "I like this map, it's going up on the wall"

That's what she wants.

You seem to think that confronting her, challenging her or not giving in to her is going to disappoint her and make her angry, but you have it 180 degrees backwards.

I feel like this has been explained on your thread many times, but you must not believe it. I don't know what else to do.

[LuckyLuke]

Accuray and Mr. Bond,

I understand the standing up for myself idea, which you have written so often about, and did not mean for you to do so again. Thank you for the universal response "I (verb) how I like to".

How about this, hot off the press: we had waffles on the weekend, and a screw fell out of the iron when cleaning it up. The screw remained on the counter while the waffle iron was put away.

Today my wife says, noticing the screw, while I am in charge of our bird killing cat outside, "could you please see if this screw fits the waffle iron?" and I say "not just now, as I am busy with the cat outside, but I will look at it". W says "you'll never fix it", to which I respond, with a bit of heat, "I am putting the iron and screw on my desk, where I can't ignore it".

A half hour later, after taking care of the cat issue, I examine the iron, determine that the screw is in fact from it, but stripped, and that we probably need a new iron, and tell W so. She says nothing.

Should I have been angry? The verbal push back could be emotional, for example by saying "thank you for your faith in me" in response to her "you'll never..." statement, or just factual, as I did. It seems you are saying that she wants the emotional, arguing, angry, one? My response can be reasonable (and I think the universal response above is reasonable) or (outside the comfort zone) emotional.

Thanks,

Luke

[MrBond]

The problem is that you continue to way over analyze everything. I mean, look how long it took you just to talk about a screw coming out of the iron.

The next time she makes a snide remark like that, stop what you're doing, look her dead in the eye and tell her not to talk to you like that again. Period.

Stop thinking and start doing. Who do you see as being an extremely masculine man?

[LuckyLuke]

Extremely masculine? James Bond, Denzel Washington, Jason Bourne, though all are top heavy on the action hero aspect. Guys I admire? Lord Bingham (see the article in Intelligent Life magazine on him), Steve Albini, our French neighbor.

Luke

[MrBond]

" though all are top heavy on the action hero aspect."

Who says? Look at Daniel Craig as James Bond for example. Have you noticed his swagger, his confidence and his "I don't care what others think" attitude? That's what your W has been begging from you.

Guys I admire? Lord Bingham (see the article in Intelligent Life magazine on him), Steve Albini, our French neighbor. "

But the problem is that those people you admire are intellectuals who don't "inspire" women. Steve Albini isn't even married. Model yourself on those traits from men who make them distinctly men. Look at Hugh Jackman for example. He's extremely talented, focused AND has been happily married for 18 years.

[LuckyLuke]

Hi Mr. Bond,

Thanks for your post. I think, as Accuray pointed out, that we've pretty much touched the important things and what to do about them, so it probably makes sense for me to post only occasionally now. I see my IC this Thursday, and fly to the States next Wednesday, where I'll be for 3+ weeks. The plan there is to work on my social skills at Meetup gatherings, and perhaps make some friends. I'll also see my parents in Boston, and poke around NYC for a day on the way back.

The website associated with "psychological self help assertiveness" has good assertiveness building exercises - see Chap. 13 there.

Thanks -

Luke

[Accuray]

I did not mean to dissuade you from posting -- I was trying to encourage you to take action and use the good advice you have received. I think you understand that your wife wants you to stand up for yourself, particularly when she pushes you, and that giving in to her, being quiet or being submissive is the wrong answer, despite the fact that it seems it may upset her in the moment.

This is the key to your sitch and I think you know it.

It's like there is a switch you have to flip. You can ask about books on switch-flipping, courses on how to prepare to flip the switch, advice for how to unlearn not flipping the switch etc etc but at some point, it comes down to you just taking action and doing it.

If you don't take action, you get into analysis paralysis and will ask the same questions and raise the same issues again and again, because you are just perpetually stuck in the same place until you take action.

I encourage you to post if it helps, but it would be great to see you start "doing" and stop analyzing

[LuckyLuke]

Hi Accuray,

and thanks for your post. Yes, I understand the key to my sitch, exactly as you write.

I agree that plenty has been said, and now is more the time for action, which is what I thought I'd focus future posts on.

Luke

[MrBond]

I think for you, what you need to do is to use this forum as a journal. Think of it like when you're training for a race. You document changes and improvements. Do the same with your M situation.

I just have the feeling that if you stop posting, you won't continue your efforts.

[25yearsmlc]

I read Cunningham's stuff in January. It was an eye opener for sure. The stuff on being a man and understanding women was golden.
However I did find it difficult to DB and do all that he says. It's not good to mix all the advice from one thing with another.

I ended up trying to take what he teaches on attraction and being a leader etc and leave the deadlines and incompatibility tests and carried on DBing.

T,

Just simply reading your signature block makes me wonder a little.

What NEW or Different behaviors did you or your w engage in or use, that were helpful? Where did you learn those helpful ones?

OR

Did you find yourself repeating errors from the past, OR reverting?

Did either of you ever go to the "Essential Experience" workshop (aka "EE") for individuals who want more clarity, peace and self esteem in their lives?

(The healthier happier Individual you are, the better the partner/parent/friend, you are).

AND OR

Did you attend the Retrovaille weekend retreat, for marriages in crisis? The word is French and means "Rediscover".

Both are excellent, for different situations. Both are the reasons I am still married, (along with Vernetta, the perfect DB coach for ME. Vernetta retired and had every right to do so...something about "more time with family"...but even now I still miss her sage & soothing advice at least monthly!)


I think For those who only want to work on their marriages

(as opposed to only working on individual goals OR to get rid of some private baggage),

I cannot see a reconciliation working UNLESS you attend Retrovaille or "EE"

OR

have an unusually gifted and insightful mc

who really is PRO M and not just there to "validate" whatever direction one's emotions takes one. Otherwise where are the needed new different tools coming from? Books are great but you have to "see" or role play those tools to implement them. Or really practice with yourself.

I highly recommend both EE and Retrovaille. Check their websites out. You may find one around you or coming soon.

I flew to the opposite coast for EE many years ago. It was by far the Most profound "internal" experience I had ever had. I didn't go to "fix" my marriage b/c we were in a good place at the time and I had issues with motherhood and career and my own parents illnesses, ETC. So I went on my own to check it out. After I returned,
My h saw my changes & "results" and to my surprise, he went himself a few months later. He said it was the "best gift" he'd ever been given.

Decades passed. Work took overl, along with child care. Some resentments built and he seemed hellbent on a "Last Frontier MLC" that did not necessarily include his family.

I thought We reconciled but we were really piecing. When we found ourselves backsliding, I had so little reserves of DB that I insisted we "DO SOMETHING" b/c otherwise I felt convinced I'd throw in the towel after all the DBing I had done.

So we looked up Retrovaille and it was coming to our own city, just two weeks later...on our anniversary....Needless to say, it seemed like an obviously good idea. Sort of like the apex of DBing.

And it was SO WORTH IT!

Just wanted to chime in that WIthout new ways of communicating aned seeing things, without NEW TOOLS

I don't think reconciling is a good idea.

Get the tools together OR BEFORE as you piece,

if you are in that "place". Because to move back in and assume all will be well - seems to set couples back a lot

..posting more later.