on the edge...

[Fartiltre]

Dingo,

Welcome!

I am also a LBH (6½ month in) and I only have one advice for you right now!

Read the advice already given to you several times and do follow them. If you don’t understand them then post questions until you do!

My point is that we LBHs simply do not understand the situation we find ourselves in, we do not understand our W and in fact I believe that we do not even understand our own feelings, thoughts and actions. For some of us it only takes half a year to obtain the calmness and the knowledge that makes us realize what we are facing and during that time we hurt ourselves, our children, our W, our chances of a possible R somewhere in the future and then some.

The people that have posted on your thread have the knowledge and the experience to guide you!

Realize also that everything you decide to do or not to do is your own decision. You will meet the best and most caring people in here but it is your life, your decisions, your actions and thereby also your responsibility!

The important part from here is that you act on thoughts and not on emotions. If you are like most LBHs 6 weeks in emotions are raging through your body and mind and that’s not the state of mind you would seek out when about to make major decisions.

– so, once again, do read the advices given to you and try to understand them before you do anything.

I wish you all the best!

F

[dingo]

Ive posted a couple of times in the past 4-5 days and am still waiting for them to show up but here is the update as of this morning:

Yesterday as we were driving in to work the conversation drifted to the relationship again. There was no arguing or convincing or any of that but I made it a point to tell her that, although I am trying my tail off, it is very difficult for me to keep things between her and I moving in a positive direction when the affair is still happening. I realize that this isnt good DBing and I should be ignoring the affair but it is honestly how I felt and wanted her to understand that. She said she would think about things, would probably end the affair and would let me know that night on the drive home.

When she came to pick me up, I was upbeat and positive and didnt ask any questions about us or her decision or the affair. We laughed and joked a bit, planned out dinner and decided to watch a couple episodes of Breaking Bad after we ate. Things were fine all night but strangely enough, something in me seemed to change. I didn't have to fight the overwhelming desire to kiss her, have sex or otherwise have some physical manifestation of our intimacy. I was content to just sit on the couch next to her and watch TV. I did kind of feel a calmness about the situation. However, when i thought about the affair and the fact that she had spent the night with him just two nights ago, i was still very angry. This anger was different than the past though in that it didn't cause me to have an intense need to talk about it. She was pretty normal, a little flirty, a few pet names/inside jokes, etc and I responded to them positively but not overly so. When we went to bed she said goodnight to which I replied. We usually kiss at this point but she didn't approach and I didn't push. Then a few minutes later, she said 'did i say goodnight to you yet?' In a friendly way I said, yes you did hun, patted her leg, said goodnight again and rolled over.

This morning as she was getting out of the shower and I was getting in, she mentioned that I forgot to ask her about her decision yesterday. I told her that I figured when she had something to tell me, she would. She then told me that she had decided to end the affair and give us another chance. I told her that I was happy that she had made that decision, thanked her and gave her a hug. Then i told her that for the next few weeks I just wanted to keep every interaction between us positive and hoped that she could do her part to help with that. She agreed, gave me another hug and then we continued to get ready for the day. As we left the house, I noticed that she had put her engagement ring back on. She has never taken her wedding band off but the engagement ring had been off for about a week.

So - she has decided to come back to the marriage before and its never stuck. What I understand now is that it probably hasnt stuck because of my reaction. Before I thought that just her making that decision meant that she was committed and we were immediately back to where we were a few months ago - ready to plan our future together, have sex again, have a kid, etc. Now I understand that we're exactly where we were a few months ago but a few months ago, we were not where I thought we were. Like I said above, my goal for the next few weeks is to be even keeled, do plenty of things for myself, be there for her and do things with her but not overly so and above all, no arguments, no relationship talk and no OM talk.

To answer some of your questions sandi, she works with the OM and sees him every day. They have a very small office (10-12 people). She has told me in the past that when she has told him that they have to stop seeing each other that he respects that. The words were something along the lines of 'he loves me, respects what I want and just wants me to be happy' to which I am sure I reacted to in a negative way. I doubt that this is the case and through snooping her phone had discovered evidence that he was pursuing her. This time I don't plan on asking her anything about him - whether she told him it was over, what his reaction was, etc.- nor will I snoop her phone (I actually haven't in over a week now).

For now, we have stopped seeing the MC because it was usually during these sessions that things turned from positive to negative. She would seem to be fine all weekend and then just prior to our Monday session she would get all stressed out and the divorce talk would start all over again. We kept our time slots and will take each week as it comes and decide whether we want to go together, separately or not at all.

I don't know how to impose the accountability on her until she is ready to accept it. Before and at our MC's suggestion, she was supposed to tell me if she had any personal contact that wasn't work related and in return, I wasnt supposed to ask her about him. That was pretty early in all of this and we both failed miserably. At the time, I couldn't make it to lunchtime without calling her and asking.

We did not see the counselor before I knew about the affair. Neither of us has seen him separately yet.
I don't know what the definition of a solution-based therapist is.
No plan has been set up since the initial one that failed. As of our last session, we were concentrating on letting things settle down a bit.

Again, right now, I don't think its wise to push her for accountability but at the same time, it certainly would help out a ton in keeping things positive between her and I. Any suggestions on how to approach this with her? Should I just let it lie for a bit? Other than during the work day (which I can get through just fine now), I can tell when they spend time together. Odd schedule, unaccountable time, strange answers to questions, etc. Maybe just see how things go for a week or so?

Don't worry Sandi - the baby is completely off the table for now.

Some positive signs in all this maybe?

[Breakdown]

Have you read "The Five Love Languages"? I highly suggest you get that, and if your W will read it, or take the quizzes with you, that would be a great start.

Clearly some of her needs are not being met, or she wouldn't have had the affair. Have you discussed those with her?

I hate to say this, because I think it's great she's agreed to stop the affair, but her working with the OM everyday is not going to work long term. It's like being in AA, but going to the bar every day. And make no mistake, it's a lot like an addiction. Transparency would be on my list of must haves (both sides).

I also think the "doing your own thing" kind of stuff needs to stop, at least in the short term. It just gives more opportunity for the affair.

What are you working on? What are you doing to become the man only a fool would leave?

[AnotherStander]

OK, well it does sound positive, but it is very common for a WAS to promise to end an affair and then either not do it or revert back to it a few days or weeks later. If she's serious then there needs to be some accountability, like full access to her phone and email so you can verify she really did end it. That may sound scary to you, you may be thinking "she'll never agree to that". If that's true then she's not serious about the M and this effort has failed before it has started.

You mentioned "we have stopped seeing the MC because it was usually during these sessions that things turned from positive to negative". It sounds like you have a poor MC. Finding a good MC can be a really lengthy process. You might consider a DB coach instead, they offer couples phone counseling in addition to individual counseling. And they are totally pro-marriage all the way unlike most MC's out there. Or depending on your funds you can always fly there and get counseling from MWD herself. I would totally do that if W were willing (she's not).

Also check into Retrouvaille, it's an amazing program, IF your W really does want to work on things.

Good luck!

[dingo]

I have not read the Five Love Languages, but I will. I don't know if she will read it with me but I am not inclined to ask or push just yet. She did give me a list of things I did that made her unhappy in the marriage so that's a pretty similar gesture to telling me what needs she was missing.

She is looking for a new job and has a couple of interviews lined up. The big problem is that she has a pretty nice job where she is. She makes a nice salary and enjoys the projects she works on. She can likely find something similar but it won't be overnight and it will take some strength on her part to go to a job that may offer her different projects than she's used to. Regardless, I don't think that me demanding she find another job is the way to go. She has to want it on her own and do it on her own. I realize its going to be difficult for her to get out of the affair while shes still working there but how do I ask her these things without pressuring?

She has mentioned a couple of times that the OM is also looking for a new job. She's said that if she ends the relationship with him, he's said he can't work there. I dont know how serious any of that is, particularly because she hasnt been able to make the breakup stick so he has absolutely zero incentive to leave. Unless hes getting sick of the roller coaster too (she's bounced back and forth 2 or 3 times now).

In addition to working on the things she has asked me to, I have continued to exercise and go to the gym (I have always done that), I have continued to do the hobbies that interest me, I have started going to church again and I have started to hang out with some of my friends that I have been a little out of touch with. The problem with this is as you said, it does give her plenty of alone time gives opportunity for the affair.

With respect to transparency, I don't know how to ask for this right now or even if I should. While I understand the concept and why its necessary, the truth is that she could give me every email password every phone bill, every computer password and it still wouldn't be enough. She could very easily text through an app that the phone bill doesn't track, twitter, facebook or even open a new gmail account that I don't even know exists. I have limited access to her phone now but she can easily delete the messages once shes read them and I would never know. I wouldn't even know how to enforce transparency and be secure in it these days. Rather, I am hoping that by not giving the affair one ounce of attention and being the best I can be to her, the allure of the affair will wear out. As with the job, I don't know how to ask her for these things without applying pressure. Its something shes going to have to do on her own.

How do I be with her 24-7 (as suggested above by saying 'the doing your own thing needs to stop) and give her time and space?

I have signed up for 3 sessions with a DB coach. All three will be just me for now. If we get to a point where she is ready to work more actively, I will ask her to join. For right now, I think we just need to settle down and get a few weeks with only positive interactions between us? Again with the pressure, how much is too much. Obviously I am willing to work on this with everything I have but trying to get that same commitment out of her has backfired on me over the past few months. I don't know if thats a sign that she's really not ready to work or that I just need to take things a little more slowly. Right now, I am opting for taking things slowly. If that doesnt work, I guess I will have to re-evaluate.

[sandi2]

Newcomer posts are monitored when they first come to the board. You should start seeing them show up faster.

Your female friend....has your W always known about this friendship? Is she acquainted with this lady? Do you ever spend time or contact your friend that your W knows nothing about? And, is your friend married?

There was no arguing or convincing or any of that but I made it a point to tell her that, although I am trying my tail off, it is very difficult for me to keep things between her and I moving in a positive direction when the affair is still happening. I realize that this isnt good DBing and I should be ignoring the affair but it is honestly how I felt and wanted her to understand that. She said she would think about things, would probably end the affair and would let me know that night on the drive home.

Being able to talk with no arguing is very positive. Since you've stated how you feel about the A and OM, you need not do it again.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that good DBing was to ignore her A while she continues. That sure would not help you or the MR. But if you plan to stay with her, in spite of her A, then there are other ways you can handle it. MWD gives a lot of suggestions in her DR book.

I didn't have to fight the overwhelming desire to kiss her, have sex or otherwise have some physical manifestation of our intimacy.

That's good b/c those desires are usually due to needing reassurances after discovering an A.

I was content to just sit on the couch next to her and watch TV. I did kind of feel a calmness about the situation. However, when i thought about the affair and the fact that she had spent the night with him just two nights ago, i was still very angry. This anger was different than the past though in that it didn't cause me to have an intense need to talk about it.

Your feelings will be a roller coaster from day to day.

So - she has decided to come back to the marriage before and its never stuck. What I understand now is that it probably hasnt stuck because of my reaction. Before I thought that just her making that decision meant that she was committed and we were immediately back to where we were a few months ago - ready to plan our future together, have sex again, have a kid, etc. Now I understand that we're exactly where we were a few months ago but a few months ago, we were not where I thought we were. Like I said above, my goal for the next few weeks is to be even keeled, do plenty of things for myself, be there for her and do things with her but not overly so and above all, no arguments, no relationship talk and no OM talk.

A successful MR does not just fall into place.....especially after an A. Ending the affair is the first step. Can you forgive her? Can you not ask questions about what they did? Right now you are relieved. You feel like you won her. But that feeling doesn't last very long, and it certainly doesn't carry you through more difficult days to come.

Both of you need a plan. I would suggest you not use the word "accountability" with her. She will be very defensive and super sensitive. You need to be able to trust her and she needs to feel she's not being punished.

A solution based therapists gives solutions to apply toward the problems. Your M needs a plan of operation or it may not withstand everything it will face in the months to come. Both of you need an expert in healing from the A.

Of course this board can help with support toward you, but both of you should choose some marriage healing program that will guide you back to a healthy place. I don't recommend regular counseling sessions.

Again, right now, I don't think its wise to push her for accountability but at the same time, it certainly would help out a ton in keeping things positive between her and I. Any suggestions on how to approach this with her? Should I just let it lie for a bit?

I will get back with you more about this later. I understand how you want things to settle for a bit. However, don't let a few days run into a week. If she is not "willing" to work on the M now....that will be telling. Does she seem remorseful? It's important that she is sorry for her actions. Being angry doesn't cut it.

So, I'd say to use the rest of this week trying to take a break from the stress you've been experiencing. Keep things light between you at home. Watch funny shows or do fun activities. Be around positive folks. If she wants to discuss the R, then listen while you look deep into her eyes. Just really hear what she's saying.

I'll be back later.

[Breakdown]

Great post by Sandi.

This is a slippery slope Dingo. To me, it doesn't sound like your W is ready to commit to working on it, but you'll know that by approaching this as "we're a team...what do we think is best for our M?" If she thinks she can still see OM, she's not ready. If she doesn't want to be transparent, she's not ready.

Be patient with her, but don't underestimate the power of an affair and don't negotiate on your boundaries and what you are willing to live with.

What are you working on? What are you doing to become the man only a fool would leave?

I think you missed this one

[dingo]

My wife has med this other women. We have hiked together in the past. She is almost always aware of when we spend time together (its not very often) but is not always aware of when we contact each other (we'll occasionally text about a trip one of us is planning). She and I aren't really friends outside this one interest that we share - we don't meet up for dinner or drinks or to talk about our lives. She is not married.

I guess I read in a couple of places on these forums that the affair is not the problem but is a symptom of the problem and that by focusing on it, it makes it more attractive or pushes her to it. I think I also read someone's advice that the affair will fizzle in time if i don't give it any attention. There is no doubt that when we do talk about it, there is a lot of tension between my wife and I.

Right now I would like our marriage to work. I feel like I have forgiven her but sometimes I am not sure. I certainly don't trust her right now which I know is normal and is a big problem that has to get fixed. I haven't felt the need to know any details other than if the relationship was physical. When she confirmed that it was, I didn't really need to hear more.

You're right about the 'ive won' feeling lasting a very short time. For me it lasted about half a day. I don't know what I should expect to see from here during this time though and that's been a point of contention in the past. Should I expect her to be in this enthusiastically 100%? Should I expect more affection, intimacy, time together, etc? She has said she's sorry but she hasn't been overly remorseful. I guess I am confused because actions seem to contradict the words. Maybe my expectations are unrealistic and that's why this time, I am trying to just keep things easy and positive and non-relationshp/non-affair oriented for a bit.

The way we left things is that she will ensure that by the end of the work day tomorrow, she will let the OM know that in no uncertain terms, the relationship is over. I didn't tell her what she should say or how it should be done. I agreed not to ask her about it and she agreed to come to me and tell me that its been taken care of after it has been. During this discussion I gave her the opportunity to back out of this if its not what she really wants and she assured me that it is what she wants.

I don't know how many more 'reverts' to the affair I can handle. This is the second or third time she's told me she's committed to the marriage. I have a coaching session tomorrow with Chuck in advance of when I expect her to tell me that the situation has been taken care of. Assuming we have a good weekend and things are still on track, how do I bring up her starting to more actively show committment without pushing her away or pressuring her? How long should I give her to just keep things light and easy before starting to ask for more?

[sandi2]

I hope you are still around. Whenever I don't see a newcomer posting almost daily, I get concerned. You really need daily support for quite some time.

I want to stress the importance of seeking a plan that will help your W overcome the strong urges she will have to continue the A. Quite frankly, I don't know if she can do it while she continues to work in the same office with OM.

If you have not read about the addicting power of affairs, then google PEAs and see how it affects the brain. It's strong stuff and causes well intentions to crumble. If she ends it, then she will actually go through a withdrawal period. That is why she will need a plan to get her through it....or she will succumb to his advances or her desire for those "in love" feelings to continue.

This is not an easy thing to hear, but you need to know what you are facing. It will be incredibly difficult for her to go the first 24 hrs without contacting OM. So, she needs to have something and somebody who will give her support during those times. The hours away from the office need to be filled. You cannot stay glued to her hip or expect her never to have alone time. That's why the two of you need to agree on how you will protect your M from further contacts with OM. I suggest an outside source b/c otherwise you and W will be too easily upset at each other. Everything will be a trigger for both of you. If you have an experienced person (not related to either of you) and preferably a professional/pastor/priest or program to lay out the plan, then she won't take it as defensively as she will from just you. It's like working with dynamite. Won't take much to make it explode.

That is why it's important that she is truly remorseful and wants to really "work" on the M. Sometime, a woman will choose to do the right thing.....and then those other feelings will follow. So, if she is doing it b/c it is what's right....accept it and be glad. Her feelings have to have time to change, or to find what those true feelings really are again. She may not feel true remorse for quite a while. That's hard for you to understand, but for a woman it involves so much of her emotions. She may experience small does of remorse as time goes by. It depends on how resentful she feels about the past and your part of the M breakdown.

[dingo]

Thats a pretty hard question for me to answer Breakdown. I already do many of the things that are recommended here. I exercise regularly, I hang out with my own friends, I have hobbies that I keep up with (some that she shares in and some that she doesn't).

The one major change I am making now that I didn't do during the first three months of this situation is that I am refusing to let the status of our relationship affect my mood - or at least I am not letting her see it when it does. I am not reacting to her jibes, I am not reacting to her negativity, I am reacting in a measured way to her positivity, I have been preparing myself for the possibility that our relationship is over and I have let her know (through actions) that I am content to do that if that's what she wants or if thats what I end up wanting as this process drags on.

Sandi - I assume that when you refer to a marriage healing program, you are referring to a book or method that gives steps that we can take to work things through. Can you recommend one that we would both participate in?