NEW LIFE / NEW ME - TAKING OFF!

[T1000]

I would say your doing right a lot more than your doing wrong. Your doing exactly what you have been told to do.

Reading your journal it comes across to me like all she is getting back from you is eye contact, low voice and “Well, isn’t that’s what we are” and very little else.

Maybe it's the way you write down your interactions.

You still want to eventually R with W. Obviously you don't want her to eat cake but when she thinks back to all the in person interactions with you what is she seeing?
An interesting F she wants to be with or an F that can just bring himself to make eye contact and say 'no' or 'I will think about it' to everything. After show much it could be seen as punitive. It can be a fine line.

It comes across like she is leaning more towards resentment than she is missing you.

It's the interactions that sound like they are not building anything positive. Don't give her a slice of cake but at least let her smell the crumbs.

The ball is very obviously in your court in regards to doing something with W and the kids. You could literally create the rules and she would lap them up.

Sandi could come along tonight and say it's a load of rubbish. I'm just saying it as I see it from what I have read.

[sandi2]

“We promised them that we would still be a family when we told them we wouldn’t be together anymore.”
“That’s what we promised them”
These came more than once

Is she correct? Did you make that promise....or was it said by her?

“We are parents - We have children together”

Yes, she is clearly not happy that you have not been hanging out at her place.

“I have seen them more with XW1 than with you and they enjoy themselves”
To this one I answered “I know since I see it when I have them”

I would guess her point was more about them seeing W and XW1 together more than W & you together.

I hate to admit it but once again I was caught off guard so my answers weren’t that clear and I might have come out somewhat weak and indecisive.

I kept my voice low, slow and kind all the way through

She'll catch you off guard next time if you aren't on your toes (so to speak).

I have noticed you make references to keeping your voice low. I thought it may be due to my advice to LBH's tone of voice with the WAW. I don't want to confuse you when I make this statement. My point in telling men that advice, was whenever they were having a bad time of W running over them (bully tactics).....or if they needed to make a strong statement about what he would not tolerate, etc. Some men raise their voices, but it is when a man speaks with a lower tone/pitched voice that often is taken much more seriously than if he was yelling.

There are times that using a softer tone is acceptable. If you are showing compassion, or when speaking over the phone about causal things(as you have been doing lately), or sometimes to help calm her if she was upset. However, there are times the LBH needs to project his voice with confident tones. A man can do it without anger or sounding as if he's yelling at his W.

I kept my voice low, slow and kind all the way through
I did keep my ground and she kept coming:

IMO, the only way you would have appeared weak and indecisive would be by using a timid, feminine soft, or whiny voice that stuttered around saying, "Well, I don't know what to do about it". Whenever you can't think of the right answer, do just like you did....and tell her you will think about it.

“It’s been almost two months since they saw us together”
“It could be on neutral grounds if you don’t feel like coming here or having me come to your place”
“It could just be for an hour or so”

She also said something about the children hurting and thinking. I told that I think D6 is hurting but also that D4 isn’t that bad.

Yep, she's feeling the results of you not being as available to her as you once were. The children probably say things about missing you, just as they say about her when at your place.

Now if you joined her in telling the children you would still be a family, then you are in a hard spot. On the other hand, if you kept quite and it was your W assuring the kids you would continue to be a family....then let me know. B/c we known from the first that she wanted family times (at her convenience, of course) and she wanted you to be handy if she had no other plans. So if she left you thinking everything would stay like always.....and you didn't tell her anything different (and I don't think you did), then things are about to get heated up.

Here's the concern; whether or not you made promises to the children. I for one, do not make promises to anyone. Children take the word "promise" very literal, and it does damage when those promises are not kept. So, do you remember what was said when the kids was given the news?

Your W is going to make you out to be the bad guy b/c you are doing what you promised. And even though I would like to tell you some goodies in how to respond to some of her statements, I'll try to wait till I hear from you about the promises.

“They see us ripped apart”
To this one I answered: “Well, isn’t that’s what we are”
She didn’t comment but I got her dragon eyes on this one.

She didn't like it b/c she knows who ripped you apart! But you handed the ball right back to her with that question.

“It’s been almost two months since they saw us together”

Perhaps you need to have a response in mind. Nothing hateful or punitive (intended), but honest and open. For an example, what if you said to her, "The kids know we aren't together. They know we are ripped apart. That is why D6 is hurting.....b/c her parents don't live together......not b/c she's not seeing us meet up for a couple of hours.

“We are parents - We have children together”

"That is why it's called co-parenting."

Let me know about the promises, before I comment any further.

[Fartiltre]

Sandi,

In short since I am about to join a videogame :-)

I do not feel like I made any promises. W stated that we are still a family when we told the children and I believe she will be right about this until death so I didn’t interrupt her at that point. We are a family but living under changed circumstances. There was no talk about doing things together.

I have made no promises about time together to her - as I recall it right now. I have absolutely NOT made any promises to the children.

Will be back later!
Looking forward to reading your post!

Thanks!

F

[sandi2]

Hi Bond, it looks like he may have flew the coop, but I'll keep an eye open.

[sandi2]

Thanks F. I am very glad to hear what you've said. Many WAW's will make it sound like both parents were speaking or making promises to the children...when in fact, it was the walk-away spouse doing the talking, trying to make things sound "good" and as if nothing would be changing.

T is correct in saying that you will soon want to accept an invitation to spend with W and kids. But we will get to that a little later. It may be tonight or tomorrow before I can reply.

Btw, the words you used to answer about you not making promises and it was mostly her doing the talking is not a bad response to give her....if she were to get too pushy or bossy about it. However, timing is everything!

[Fartiltre]

T,

I would say your doing right a lot more than your doing wrong. Your doing exactly what you have been told to do.

Thanks and I try! Somebody once told that this would be the hardest thing …… that’s a fact!

Reading your journal it comes across to me like all she is getting back from you is eye contact, low voice and“Well, isn’t that’s what we are” and very little else.

To some point you are right! I am very withdrawn and looking at her as nosey neighbor. I keep it to money and children unless she asks. She hears a lot and mentions only a little but when she does I talk – otherwise I don’t. Every time she comes at me with something I stall and tell her I will think about it. Most the times because I will do wrong if I act immediately. I need time right now. I am only six weeks into this going dim and it’s a whole new ballgame.

You still want to eventually R with W. Obviously you don't want her to eat cake but when she thinks back to all the in person interactions with you what is she seeing?
An interesting F she wants to be with or an F that can just bring himself to make eye contact and say 'no' or 'I will think about it' to everything. After show much it could be seen as punitive. It can be a fine line.

Unfortunately I am still a mess around her and unfortunately I don’t believe interesting describes me around her. I understand what you are aiming at and I will get there in time. I would simply love to be the F I am around everybody else – but I haven’t succeeded in doing that yet. I was better today but there’s a loooong road in front of me. I was proud of the eye-contact thing today – that’s the first time in several weeks I was able to that. I felt good about today.
It is a fine line and it is hard to walk. I think – in Ws opinion – I am leaning a little towards not-nice, but that’s primarily when I tell her no to something. Funny thing is that every time I do this she turns and become very nice.

It's the interactions that sound like they are not building anything positive. Don't give her a slice of cake but at least let her smell the crumbs.

But how? - I simply do not feel comfortable and relaxed around her. On the other hand I do believe that a meet-up with children would be so much easier for me to handle. No dinner, no sitting down but just playing with them.

T, thanks for the kind and not so kind words – they all mean a lot to me!

F

[Fartiltre]

Sandi,

I went through my journals and just to clarify:

“So, do you remember what was said when the kids was given the news?”

Approx. this:

W started out by telling that we are not going to live together anymore. D6 asked twice why and got the answer that we are not going to be sweethearts anymore…and then D4 said “That’s just like me and XX at kindergarten!” That made us all laugh and D4 should have some of the credit for how this went!
Then a short talk about the new house and some good things about this like school distance. D6 asked if she would get her own room and if she could bring toys. Then W asked if they would like to see the house and D6 told her no.
Some chit chats about the good parts in this and then some practical things about the moving.
We still love you, we are still a family and done deal in less than 5 minutes

.

WE, and thereby also I, have told the children that we are still a family but a different kind of family. W said the actual words to them as I recall.
It came out at the end of the talk-to-children. W and I had discussed this and I backed her up on this statement before the talk. I do not recall anything mentioned about spending time together. I am as certain as possible that this is a fact but then again – it was very emotional times, my head was spinning and confusion was total.

I don’t feel I have made any promises to her and especially not to the children.
I do not know whether to believe that she actually believes what she said today or if it was just intended to convince me by putting pressure and guilt on me. One thing is certain: When I told her that I didn’t want to meet up first time on the phone and told her that we shouldn’t be friends she answered “I thought this would come but it still doesn’t please me” (Hard to translate!)

IMO (and this is mindreading!!) she has built up a picture in her head about the happy future living apart. How we would still do happy-family-things and so on. When this is combined with all the happy-stuff we in fact did during the five months from BD till she moved out, everybody around us telling everybody how fantastic we did it, telling the children that we are still a family, me being kind and pleasant (when not pursuing) - I can understand why she thinks promises were made.

Children’s hasn’t once mentioned that we don’t meet up and they normally keep their books as you mentioned.
At the same time I believe they are doing just fine at the moment. D6 is hurting and they are all confused – but look what they are going through! I do NOT believe in happy-family-times. It will just rip the wound open once again when we part. Time will hopefully heal it. W knows that’s my belief because she has been a part of discussing how to handle S10. XW1 and I have done family times a few times a year plus birthdays.

So please continue like I have made no promises – I have no problems looking myself in the mirror or my children in the eyes.


F

[JayMan]

If it were me, I wouldn't do anything until things are finalized. You are NOT a family anymore, your W has made sure of that. All kids hope their parents get back together. I talked at length with a child counselor in my first D, and she said often times kids will wish for that subconsciously even when the mom and dad are both re-married. My XW1 and I only spend time together at things like school plays or sport events.

By doing things as a "fake family", you're only going to give them false hopes, especially D6 as D4 may be a bit too young to understand completely. W just wants to have this happy pretend life where the kids are OK and she doesn't have to feel badly.

Just my two cents.

[T1000]

It is a fine line and it is hard to walk. I think – in Ws opinion – I am leaning a little towards not-nice, but that’s primarily when I tell her no to something. Funny thing is that every time I do this she turns and become very nice.

Being nice is all she has to return your volley, if she gets nasty your gonna walk away.

It's the interactions that sound like they are not building anything positive. Don't give her a slice of cake but at least let her smell the crumbs.

But how? - I simply do not feel comfortable and relaxed around her. On the other hand I do believe that a meet-up with children would be so much easier for me to handle. No dinner, no sitting down but just playing with them.

T, thanks for the kind and not so kind words – they all mean a lot to me!

F

I think a meet-up if your comfortable with that would be the next step. Like Sandi says you will be coming to that soon.

No problem F, I know you prefer us to shoot straight from the hip!

[sandi2]

Sorry I'm just getting back to the subject at hand. I'd like to respond to a few statements made by others, in hopes of clarifying your recent actions.

You thought carefully before deciding to back off and go "dim" with your W. You started doing it, and have held back b/c of my advice. Once you actually turned down one of her invitations, you were pleasantly surprised by how you felt about it. Then, you realized you were becoming stronger during the period of absence with your W.

There has been something I've been watching closely. I've seen how it has become easier for you to not see her face to face. However, I am concerned you may have come to a point of wanting to avoid her...hoping to bypass conversations where you are not confident in answering her questions.

That is one reason I addressed the tone of voice to use when talking to her. You have said several times that you are careful to speak in a low voice, but when I read where you've had difficulty making eye contact for a significant period...that concerned me. IMO, a man cannot present himself in a confident, manly manner if he cannot hold eye contact. There are several negatives related to not keeping eye contact. A lot of people who lie cannot look you straight into your eyes....and hold contact. An indecisive person usually has trouble holding eye contact. A shy, timid, non-confident person can't do it. It is hard to take a man seriously if he can't hold eye contact. So, that is just a few examples of why it's important for you to overcome this problem you have with her. I believe it is b/c you feel so unsure and are afraid of making a mistake that it is hindering your progress. You even said that you didn't have a problem with other people, yet you feel awkward around your W.

F, I understand that you are trying to stay away from your W and make her learn to miss you, but I think if she continues to ask to spend time together and you continue to refuse that it will be detrimental to your sitch.

Your W (F's W) does need to miss you, however that is only part of the reasons I had for you to back off from accepting her invitations. She had a highly unrealistic view point of what life after the breakup would be. She was one of the biggest cake eaters I've seen, and she wanted her largest slices of cake from "family time". So, the point was not only to present the opportunity for her to miss you, but to show her that life is not the same for the family after the breakup. As long as you were doing all these family nights together (or whatever she wanted to do), why would she ever see that her plan to leave you was not good? If she continued to have more of the same...then why would she change her direction?

I have expressed MHO's about the buddy-buddy system after S and how it can easily cause the state of limbo to continue....b/c the WAW is living on cake. She has to see her way was not the best way. It's not fun. It's not the same as being together. And, the family is ripped apart....thanks to her decision.

I had hoped that you could hold out until she invited you to meet with her, without the kids. But, she was not asking to spend time together (just the two of you). She was wanting the kids to see the two of you together for a few hours. She wanted fake family time. Again, she has an unrealistic view that if the kids can believe you all are still one big happy family, then they won't be sad.

The DB'ing approach is not to accept all offers, but to accept some and be too busy to accept others. DB'ing is not refusing ALL offers to get together. It sounds like there's some resentment building in your W over this issue. IE, she's not learning to miss you, she's getting angry.

Yes, she is beginning to get angry. I told you to expect it. However, (as I have already pointed out the reasons)...if she is not seeing you as a confident man who is busy spending time GAL, then you are not gaining ground by declining her invitations. If she sees you in any other light other than a free, attractive, happy, confident man...(who has been unavailable to her)...then, you aren't accomplishing your goal. See what I mean? You need to be all those things.

When I read AS's post and put it together with what T said, I felt even stronger toward there being a possibility of you not getting a clear picture or message to her. If she sees you happy in life without her....that's fine. But if she doesn't see it....and thinks you are stumbling around trying to find an excuse not to be around her and the kids, then she will be too angry at the wrong message you are giving her. And therefore, the purpose behind all of this will be lost.

Originally Posted By: T1000
I think it would help grease the wheels for your xmas plans also by accepting an invite. She might start thinking you dislike her as a person.

FWIW, I don't think it would cause her to question you not liking her as a person. I do agree you need to grease the wheels (which was a good point).

I can’t bring up the Christmas subject right now. Todays experience stalled that IMO.

We are going to prepare for that subject now.

I appreciate your advice so much and I understand what you are saying but it also confuses me about what to do.

You may receive advice that does...or does not agree with me. Don't let it bog you down in fear of doing the wrong action, b/c you'll end up just avoiding everything. If you are guided by fear instead of confidence, she will not respond in a good way.

Reading your journal it comes across to me like all she is getting back from you is eye contact, low voice and “Well, isn’t that’s what we are” and very little else.

Maybe it is a matter of interpretation, b/c I read it as a good answer.

The ball is very obviously in your court in regards to doing something with W and the kids.

I will agree......if you won't let all of this get you confused again.

Since she said it could be at your place or "anywhere", why don't plan to have them over to your house. You have made a lot of changes around there since she's left. I think it would be a good time to let her see. Don't point anything out to her. Trust me, she'll notice everything that's different.

Plan it so that it doesn't look like you've gotten into a sweat over the thought of her being at the house. You want to look like a man in charge! Do not make it appear more than what it is...an evening with the kids. Keep it rather short and simple. See how it goes.

Do not bring up the subject of Christmas on the day/night you plan to have them over for fake family time.

Do not discuss anything serious, if she doesn't bring it up. But if she should say something in front of the kids about "still being a family" or stuff like it, then you'll need to plan on a firm chat with her without the children around. Maybe not right then, but soon afterwards. She needs to get things straight about the situation. But the important thing to remember is not to appear as if you don't know what to think or say. You are man who knows his own mind, and you have a purpose and a plan. Act and speak with confidence!