Unlearning conflict avoidance - 8

[adinva]

Validating and agreeing are not the same. You are sometimes validating her statements that are putting you down, by agreeing with them. That isnt db either, luke. Validate the emotion not the content. For example when she said you mimicked her when you acted cultured, possibly you could say, that sounds frustrating. I dont see it that way, but i can hear how frustrated you sound.

Of course then she'll say something downright cruel and you have to put a stop to it then and there.

So validating isnt completely useless, but its gotta be just recognizing HER emotion, i dont think you've done much of that over the years because you tend to focus on content over emotion.

I think it is interesting that in a backhanded way she pointed out that you do show some qualities that she admires. Although she thinks they originated in HER, and wants to put that aspect down, it did sound for a moment that she viewed you sort of positively for a second there. Keep working on standing up for yourself.

And no, dont explain how you were cultured before. Explaining that looks weak. And opens the issue up for her to disagree with and argue the new points you raised. When you argue, i'll wager, she never comes out having more respect for you than before. Shrugging off her ridiculous statement with a confident chuckle is better because she cant argue with that.

[PatientMan]

So no longer validate... not sure I agree, as it seems very unDBing...

Perhaps, but DB'ing is ultimately about doing what works. In the book it clearly states to make changes, analyze the effect, and adjust accordingly.

but I see your point with no longer taking c**p.

I hope so. Following your thread it appears as though you haven't ACTED on this, though. Talk is cheap. Follow through with ACTION!

Not much point in having any R talk with this woman just now.

Agreed. At this point, R talk is like a hot stove. Don't touch it!

You have your goals, LL. You know what to do. DO IT!

-PM

[LuckyLuke]

All - thanks -

I like your hand phrase 'yeah right', Mr. Bond - that is the kind of talk I need to learn.

Adinva - yes, I never thought of the content over emotion angle, though I could hear her voice shaking. Too da*n factual on my part.

PM - I played music with friends again last night, and we hope to do so once more this week, before I go to the US again. d15 and W went to see Gravity. We'll see if W gives me another chance to react to being put down (what do I do when W ignores me if I ask a question? Perhaps it depends on the details?)

d15 home all week, on fall break. Lunch club on Wednesday, (delayed) student interviews on Sunday, fly Tuesday or Wednesday.

L

[adinva]

I wonder what the guys say is a good response when W ignores you.

I think if it's something really minor, ignore her ignoring, just let it go.

If it's a direct question and she's being downright rude, call her out on it. You can't force her to answer you, but you can poke a little fun at her to let her know she's not acting attractively OR getting you upset. Like "oh, the SIlent treatment, REAL mature!" chuckle and walk away.

[LuckyLuke]

Hi adinva,

Thanks - Luke

[PatientMan]

PM - ...We'll see if W gives me another chance to react to being put down (what do I do when W ignores me if I ask a question? Perhaps it depends on the details?)

I can think of several ways to handle a situations like those, but you've already been given advice multiple times by multiple posters here on what to do so I don't really see the need to keep beating the same dead horse. It's time to stop asking others what to do and start thinking for yourself about what YOU will do. What the YOU you want to become would do.

Stand firm. Be courageous. Be strong. Act like a man.

Act like a man and you will be treated like a man. Do everything out of love, which INCLUDES setting healthy boundaries of how you allow yourself to be treated. It includes setting these boundaries as examples for your children, who their father is, who their mother is, how a marriage is supposed to operate, and how adults are supposed to conduct themselves.

How are you missing that there couldn't be anything more important than correcting the way you allow yourself to be treated? Stop dancing around the issue with question after question and get to action!

For cripes sake, LL, if you won't do it for yourself, do it for your kids! I KNOW you love your children! Do you want your daughter to think it's okay and normal to treat her future husband like you've been treated? Do you want your son to think it's okay and normal to be treated like you've been treated? By not correcting this issue, what kind of example are you setting for them? What is your inaction and submissiveness teaching them?

I follow your sitch, and I feel like I'm watching you dance around this issue day after day after day. You want to read a book. You want to go to a group. You want to talk about GAL'ing. Those are all paper-cut problems on one of your arms while your other arm is completely broken. If I'm a doctor and you're asking for my help, I don't care about your paper-cuts right now. You need to fix your broken arm first.

So what are you going to do? Keep reaching for the Neosporin? Or do you want to reset that broken arm? I'll help you with your arm, but YOU'RE the one that has to do the work. It may hurt a little bit at first, but I PROMISE you that you'll feel better once it's done.

Let me know what you choose.

-PM

[PatientMan]

I wonder what the guys say is a good response when W ignores you.

I think it's an exercise in futility. We're on the 8th version of "Unlearning conflict avoidance" - and there are threads prior to that with the same topic - and he still either

1) has no clue how to avoid conflict with his W, or
2) simply won't do it.

Those are the only two possibilities I can fathom.

My guess is he is scared of his W and he is stalling so he can avoid conflict - that would simply fit in with his behavior pattern. If that's the case then it's up to him to choose to change, and no amount of advice is going to help until he commits to it.

Why he would be scared of his wife is beyond me, but it's likely habitual behavior that he realizes needs to be "unlearned" given the thread titles. Perhaps once he realizes there is nothing to be scared of, he will be able to think clearly in situations where conflicts arise. Once healthy boundaries are established, fewer conflicts will arise entirely. And that's great! That's the healthy way to avoid conflicts...with healthy, mutually respectful boundaries.

I wonder what LL's W is going to do if he works on resetting boundaries. I don't recall him saying she was an unstable gun enthusiast, an ill-tempered ex-Israeli militant, or the daughter of a mob boss. What's there to be scared of?

-PM

[Accuray]

If we're going to talk about LL in the 3rd person, I think it's easier and more comfortable for him not to be "in charge". If W makes the decisions and sets the tone for what will be done and what will not be done, he can follow. He's not responsible for making bad decisions, or enforcing unpopular choices. It's just easier not to be primarily responsible.

I think he's perhaps more afraid of stepping up and being in charge than he is of W, and I think that's what drives W nuts.

[JayMan]

Luke - I'd like to give you an example of something I just said to my W. I'll admit up front, for about a hour after I said it, my stomach was kind of clenched up, feeling nervous about how it would be received. Also, I am NOT a vet, and I am NOT a great DBing example, but this is a hard thing I knew I needed to say, and I needed to stand firmly by it. NTX_Dad called it "sacking up" and I like that! (Check my signature)

A very long story short - my W said she wanted to try to work on R a week ago. This past Friday, she hugged me, kissed me, begged me to stay longer, etc. Yesterday, I went to surprise her to see if she and my step-kids wanted to go to breakfast, and she slammed the door in my face, threatened me with the restraining order, and pretended to call the police to get me to leave. I found out the OM she'd had an EA with was there.

Here's what I said to her as a boundary:

1. Our families will have zero "in-person" interaction while a restraining order is in place. It was ridiculous behavior, and I won't live in fear of it. I will communicate only with email for important stuff, and perhaps phone for something quick, but I will follow it up with a confirmation email, and I won't act on it until she confirms the email so I have it in writing.

2. I will not be in a relationship where another man is involved in any way. Period. Even if the EA was ended, and they're just really good friends, she's going to have to sacrifice that relationship to be with me. It's the one thing I will not negotiate.

Please note, I was VERY careful not to discuss any control of her actions, only mine. I also pointed out specific behavior that was unacceptable and why.

Again, I am not the greatest example. But even though my W is actually saying positive things about our R, she obviously thinks she can get away with making poor choices, and treating me in disrespectful ways, so I made hard choices and said hard things.

[PatientMan]

If we're going to talk about LL in the 3rd person, I think it's easier and more comfortable for him not to be "in charge". If W makes the decisions and sets the tone for what will be done and what will not be done, he can follow. He's not responsible for making bad decisions, or enforcing unpopular choices. It's just easier not to be primarily responsible.

I think he's perhaps more afraid of stepping up and being in charge than he is of W, and I think that's what drives W nuts.

Perhaps, but it's really an exercise for LL to think through and answer. If YOU answer for him it just facilitates and enables more of the same behavior you are describing, which he acknowledges is contributing to his marital problems and is something he claims to want to correct/improve upon.

-PM