Unlearning conflict avoidance - 8

[PatientMan]

As you live out your day and face whatever decisions you will face, from of miniscule importance to enormous importance, ask yourself these questions:

"What kind of example am I setting for my children?"
"If they were here watching me, what would I/should I do?"

We'd all be better people if we lived our lives the way we tell our kids to live theirs. Remembering that is a GREAT and SIMPLE test for yourself.

-PM

[LuckyLuke]

Thanks, PM, that is a very good way to think about it.

Luke

[25yearsmlc]

"So no longer validate... not sure I agree, as it seems very unDBing..."

No your problem is that you continue to validate her and it's been years that you've been in this sitch. Stick to what you said before and don't keep explaining your actions.

"If W claims I have learned something cultural from her, I can point out that I was interested in the humanities before her and didn't need her to be interested in poetry, art history, etc. "

Why do you keep having to have these long drawn out explanations? If she says something like that, laugh at her and say something like "yeah right". And then walk away as if you had some private joke at her expense. Don't feed the fire. Extinguish it right off the bat. You don't need to constantly explain things.

I love this post by Bond.\
If she tosses REALLY low blows at you, then let yourself feel sad but REACH OUT to the folks want to end you

[mustardseed]

Your thread is really eye opening to me. I think I need to also unlearn conflict avoidance. I tip-toed around DHs moods all our marriage. And I taught my kids to do the same. One of my 180s is to be more direct. To not expect him to get annoyed, angry, snappy when I do things and just do them. He said that all I do is nag, which I found hard to believe because all I thought I did with him was avoid nagging (although I guess if he overheard me talking with the kids I can see what he was saying). But I think instead things came out kind of passive aggressive--and my body language might have spoke volumes. I am still trying to figure out how to talk to him about household things in a productive way. Once my thread passes through moderation (we are now on day five of waiting for it to post) I will have to reflect on this more.

[25yearsmlc]

Man that last post of mine did NOT get sent right. Guess I pushed delete where I thought I had highlighted.

ANYWAY

Luke, don't forget what you learned at EE and here, and don't forget you've been here nine years.

To HER, not much you are doing is radically new and it sure has not been done with the confidence that makes it real.

Hence your multiple questions about doing the wrong/right thing, and the endless second guessing.

Let's go with what you KNOW.

You KNOW your wife has not been wanted intimacy in 9 years and

you KNOW you two never discussed why.


You KNOW she has repeatedly said (and now appears to have acted in pursuit of,) Ending the marriage.

I think When someone SAYS they want out and has no intimacy for years, and then moves to end things formally, in accordance with they said they wanted to do, I think they want out.

Certainly -

Those are all big fat red flags.

And they've been waving for years. I don't know if she realizes the financial or legal consequences of a divorce but that is NOT YOUR PROBLEM.

Also, since it has been so very long, (like a personal record around here to tell you the truth)

then To HER, she may think "why doesn't he get it by now? I want out!"...She probably feels she has been clear and consistent.

to YOU, it's as if you are willing to believe all will be well, when and if she's not actively being negative to you for a few days.

But to the casual observer, all those days are, is a lull in the combat.

It's NOT peace or happiness. OR intimacy.

Your d may be lead to an unfortunate view of men and marriage if you let all this continue.

FTR I am NOT very interested in what your w thinks of what you are doing. I doubt many of us are.

I am somewhat concerned about your d,

and I am very concerned and primarily concerned with how

YOU FEEL and What YOU are doing to get some companionship in your lonely "family life".

Please read Sandi's post to you again. NOT to get your wife "back" but to show your d something. As in, the real you.

I say that b/c nine years is a long time to have been like this and it's basically all your d knows of you. Think about that.

But she's young and you CAN change the dynamic of your R with her.


and BTW

If I had gotten that text about "NO sauces", I'd have assumed there was a bit of teasing going on (in part as a diffuser) & I'd have probably said "Yes Ma'am. Anything else, Master?"

The point then is made without belaboring it. Of course, IF pressed, then say,

"I'll get what I want for MY home. I'm your father, not your dog. Don't talk to me like that."

I would not worry about being positive and negative and positive again. That sounds like the proverbial "compliment sandwich" with the meaningful part NOT in the bread. People usually see through that.

Luke, we've met. You were a pleasant suprise to me b/c you are warm and very natural in person.

Something about how you interact with your wife is so dysfunctional, it's like you forgot b/c I guess you are so used to it.

NINE YEARS is a long time to be so lonely.

And the R I see being risked is NOT your w wanting out (that is old news) but your d and how she is viewing you.

I say Go on the trips with your son, & go ahead and invite your d along, AND MAYBE a friend of hers too. So she's not choosing between you and wife, but between her brother, dad and friend trip, versus staying alone with her mom

b/c her mom is... mad at you? Why? and....is that really what your wife wants too? I mean, that's just mean and weird of her.

IF your wife wants a private life with some OM, why would she always want D around? To "win"? Good grief. I get that your w feels no sparks but is she actually angry at you for something specific? What does she complain about with you?


Back to the trips...
Don't bother asking w to go, but if you do, ask her with the obvious belief that it matters NOT one whit if she says no. You just needed to know.

Remember what a great catch you are and how you CAN feel around women and how THEY can feel around you.

Your wife is not the typical one. I wish you'd seen this years ago.

Am I saying to give up?

I am saying to get ahold of your own life and stop placing your happiness or ability to be with anyone in life, including your own family -

in your wife's hands.


ALSO

I would NOT stop staying with MIL once the news comes out. Who says you have to do that? Why? She's still the grandmother of your children and you'll always have a bond.

I still go on trips with my former SIL even though my brother left her. I thought my brother was a fool at the time, and she and I were close. At the time, my brother said "glad you are close...stay that way" but it probably bugs him. NOT MY PROBLEM

just b/c he left his marriage of 17 years, does not mean all her R's with our family also ended...why should you stop being close to her b/c her d is not close to (OR to her)?

Seems to me you & MIL have a lot in common. I see nothing disloyal or weird about it.

Ask around maybe, b/c if someone thinks a sexual R is happening between you and your mil, they are going where I'd not have gone in my head.

You do NOT have to magnify the loss of other relationships b/c your wife wants to end the marriage. You do NOT have to start cutting other people out of your life.


LUKE, consider this...

What is ending is not really a true m, is it really? I mean, isn't what's ending here, more like the facade of a marriage?

Hopes are being dashed, I realize. And that is painful, I know. I don't want to minimize that. I just want you to be realistic about expectations of your situation, and prepare to move on SOON and to be happy anyhow.

For you to be working on DBing this many years with no real results, means whatever you have done before did NOT work well enough.


I would not repeat that old behavior. It did NOT work well for you or the m. or the r you have with your d.

But it's NOT too late for you to have a decent R with your d.

You do have to be her dad, (a father figure), and that means you guide and you lead.

[LuckyLuke]

MLC - wow, thanks for your long post. Yes, all my W's actions point to her wanting out, and I think it is going to happen. Perhaps we could meet again - I would like that.

I am Stateside again, going to EE next week (inside team), and then working in the usual location for a few more weeks, having Thanksgiving with MIL and BIL and BIL's W's parent also.

Has anyone here done the bettermen coaching or group?

Later - I hear MIL and her boyfriend are awake - Luke

[LuckyLuke]

So the work madness of the last week is finished, and the next weeks until Thanksgiving should be calmer, plus EE is happening again, and I am going to help out!

I need to figure how to be a good dad to my d15, especially when I am often so far away. I feel so empty sometimes, without much to give her beyond my good wishes and love (and of course material stuff), and this 'I love you so much but have nothing to give you' rips me apart. Perhaps I could tell her about EE, but this seems like it sets her between my W and myself, which doesn't seem fair to her, plus isn't telling her about my issues unfairly imposing on her?

The NYT column by Charles Blow today pointed out that we have to let go of our kids too, so making getting friends and maybe a new W even more important. Life isn't easy, I guess. Luke

[25yearsmlc]

So the work madness of the last week is finished, and the next weeks until Thanksgiving should be calmer, plus EE is happening again, and I am going to help out!

This will be a great experience for you in several ways. For one thing, you'll be GIVING BACK to someone and that will help you in your r with d.
Plus it's a refresher course/booster for YOU, imo.

At team meetings, share your wishes for a better R with d.



I need to figure how to be a good dad to my d15, especially when I am often so far away.

I know this is THE biggest issue for you. Makes sense. So let's think about it.


Time when you are there at/near, spent with her is something you can work on. I mean, aren't you sometimes able to work from home? That sounds like a real opportunity for keeping her company. What things did you two used to do, before your w seemed threatened? Can you renew some?

Now, I worry a bit that you'll get into your head and worry and fear

what your wife might say or do.

But see, I don't care what she does or says b/c it's NOT relevant to YOUR fathering.

(Can you honestly imagine your w askign YOU for advice or consent to HER spending time with your d?)

However, assuming YOU DO worry about it, let's review some words you might say to your w if needed.

Obviously only if they feel authentic to you.

You can reassure your w that "this isn't a competition" which she probably needs to hear. She may laugh that off but it bears saying and possibly repeating.

Plus it's not as if you could "Steal" your d away from her anyhow, and nor would you want to. You're not that type of man, thank God.

If she says more critical or crazy or rude things, STOP HER cold.

Say something like "Stop talking to me that way. I'm her father and it's about time I stop stop being undermined by someone who SHOULD be supporting our d having a relationship with BOTH parents".


(Luke, you MUST NOT tolerate anymore disrespect from your w OR d, but you can handle them differently.)

and or try telling your wife

"We BOTH need to parent our children & I'm not going to quit OR be shoved aside or undermined....anymore"

AND OR

"I do NOT undermine your parenting. Do not undermine mine. It's unfair to me AND it's unfair to our d."

"WHY do you insist on dividing this family? Don't you see how destructive it is to HER, not to mention me? It's VERY unfair and very unkind of YOU."

Luke, you DO have to say things to your wife. She's a lousy mind reader when it comes to you. And she is NOT fair or kind to you. She's been divisive as heck to your relationships with your children as she moves to separate and abandon you. SHE can do that with the marital r if she insists.

But not to you as a father. Only a fool would be blind to the damage this causes her children.

She cannot put her anger or frustration with her own life (or with you) ahead of the benefits and love You have for your children.


Besides, you have to say things b/c your silence has been interpreted as apathy or consent, for nearly a decade.

Is that what YOU want to "say" to your daughter? It's all she has seen for the bulk of her "waking" life...

isn't it time for your d to KNOW how you feel and not have to guess or assume or view you thru her mother's eyes?


When you two do talk with your d, try asking open ended questions. instead of "do you have homework?" You ask "What homework assignment do you have that's most/least interesting? Why?"

AND ask follow up if it makes sense. If you get a one word answer, follow up. Maybe say "oh, how so?" You are also allowed to tell her stories or observations. You have seen some cool places Luke. You've done some interesting things. It's GOOD to talk about them.

Get to know your d and let her get to know you. Just takes time AND PATIENCE.

Do not measure it on a weekly basis. MAYBE a monthly basis but do not take the temperature too often...

Remember her friend's names. LISTEN when she speaks of them. (my h is not great with names of any kind, except long Latin medical phrases...but it drives my kids nuts. For them it's a symbol of disinterest, which is sad.

I know you want some quality time with her. But it may have to start with some more quantity, upon which you can build. That may mean having her invite a friend along.

Often, friends feel like buffers to discomfort. So, IF she seems uncomfortable doing something at first, let her bring someone with her.

Also can you schedule (but not necessarily tell her so) a small task or routine thing with her that you two do alone, such as the grocery shopping, her purchases of some regularly needed item? Or check out transportation. Driving her somewhere (or taking the train with her?) is a common opportunity for meaningful communications.

Seriously, when I pick up my d16, she shares more with me than other times. Maybe the fact neither of us are making eye contact (which is usually needed) actually makes it easier or feels like less pressure, and she shares more with me...

I do know the few bombs she has dropped on me were mostly shared in the car.

Is there a way for you to insert yourself into your d's life subtly? Like being the one who "gets the music scores" or "picks up the X" and bring your d along. If it feels awkward, and it might at first, then start with small short chores or errands.

And then of course, the not so subtle ways. Like a "dinner with dad".

Do NOT ASK your w about it or for permission.

Just suggest it one night to your d. Let your d choose WHICH night, NOT whether she'll go.

Why even involve your w if not needed? And You don't have to tell anyone you PLAN on making it a regular thing, just do it.

You're her father. Not a boy asking her or your w for a favor.
And you're a good normal warm man with interpersonal skills that are JUST FINE.




I feel so empty sometimes, without much to give her beyond my good wishes and love (and of course material stuff), and this 'I love you so much but have nothing to give you' rips me apart.

LUKE

What do you think fathers give? Guidance, time and support and love. You can give these things. You want to and you are fully capable of it.

Time to own that.



Perhaps I could tell her about EE, but this seems like it sets her between my W and myself, which doesn't seem fair to her, plus isn't telling her about my issues unfairly imposing on her?

You are ALLOWED to discuss EE. NOT your "issues" but the workshop itself.

You can share issues NOT related to your m. Surely you have some (like with your dad? or work or anything OTHER than your w?)

If so, Why would it harm anything or anyone?

Does your wife mock it EE? And if so, do You think staying silent makes that better? You think NOT talking about EE somehow helps your cause?

It does not. Stop letting fears keep you silent. you are NOT well served by that.

You SEEM to think "no conflict for THIS minute" is better than "long term distance and feeling empty".

Re-examine that^^.



The NYT column by Charles Blow today pointed out that we have to let go of our kids too, so making getting friends and maybe a new W even more important. Life isn't easy, I guess. Luke

No one said life is easy. Scott Peck says it up front. "Life is difficult".

But when we learn to see that the "work" we do in our life IS how we live it and learn to take more joy in it

more joy in our connections with others, we live well. We live more fully.

And God YES your d would benefit by seeing you happy and showing love for someone who returns it.

What is she learning by your behavior now?

I don't see what you have to lose.

I say Go for it Luke.

[LuckyLuke]

A short note - thanks MLC for your long reply - will get back when there is more time -

W sent the following email regarding getting tickets for our son19 to return home over Christmas:

Hi,
Did the flight get worked out—it got left very late as he never knew his exam schedule? I forgot that MIL gave the kids two little packages. Don't bother her with the etsy things. Hope the plane stuff wasn't a terrible hassle.

which annoys me for two reasons. W doesn't call me by name (why?) and I didn't need to be reminded about the tickets. She does hope that the plane stuff was not too burdensome, at least.

It seems reasonable to push back on the not reminding front (I am an adult...) but how about the name? Like this, maybe:

Hi (W name),

I seem to be nameless in your mails... the ticket is bought... did not need to be reminded about it after your first note.

Luke

Is this a reasonable, somewhat annoyed, reply?

[JayMan]

I'd completely ignore it, if it was me.

Who cares if she calls you by name, and why would it matter? If the ticket is bought, then who cares what she thinks about it?