I've looked at life from both sides now

[Wonka]

My dear Raine...I do want to comment to your posts. Right now, I am in the middle of a conference so things are a bit hectic at the moment. When I am a bit more settled after the conference finishes up in the next few days, I'll shoot off some thoughts.

((Raine baby))

[Raine]

Ahhhhh there's my big ol' smile. I luvs my ((Wonka))
Thanks for thinking of me, pretty lady. I hope you enjoy your conference.

[ForeverYoung]

Nice update, Raine. I can see you're really thinking through all this stuff.

There has been multiple moments of him acknowledging that he has done things wrong, but not anything like where he feels he has wronged me or anything like that.

Do you really need this from him? At this time?

He continues to help out, take care of things, communicate about things. He continues to want me around him, spending time with him. When we went to hang out together with a group, he's got annoyed at the thought of me doing something in a separate group from him. "No, I came here to be with you." He will also move chairs to sit next to me...

...He is showing lots and lots of consistent action.

What would you have given for this last year? Your right arm, I'd bet!

I set out to save my marriage. I’ve always wanted to save it. I wanted back what I thought I had. And now? Now I want more. I want more than what I thought we had. I feel like I’ve done the right things, because of where he is now, where I am now, and where we are together. He is showing lots and lots of consistent action. But there is no communication towards working on a relationship or any kind of apology.

It's human nature to always want more. You admit H is moving forward, just not quite quick enough for you. Maybe a little more patience is in order? Especially since you say you don't have a "timeline".

I’m not okay with sweeping all of this under the rug. I know too much. I don’t want to be in a relationship where there are secrets. There can’t be secrets that involve me, and cheating on me, involves me. There can’t be secrets that he shares with other people that involves me and our marriage. If I know, then I know, and I can stop thinking about it. I don’t have a timeline for when this needs to come out, and no I don’t want specific details, but yes, for this to work out between him and I, for there to be trust ever again, it has to come out.

Raine, my young'un, it sounds to me like you may be trying to make a case for giving up on H, and that's fine... only you know when you've had enough. But as I know you are aware, there are no instant, money back happiness guarantees if you do that. Your choice of course, but personally I think it would be so sad for you to give up on your man just when he's starting to turn around.

The wise folks here tell us this MLC crap takes a lot of time for them to work through. Decide to be happy with where you are Raine.

[Raine]

Hey Mr Young thanks for your post. I'm glad you did, so I can add in some clarifications. I don't want anyone thinking I'm throwing in any kind of towel. I'm still two feet in the door, being that lighthouse, doing everything that I can to save the M and get him through this. Not a lot we can do, but I am and I am willing.

Yes, it's total human nature to want more, but I've also seen a bit of the other side. I've seen there are amazing men out there who would give their right arm to be with someone like me. I'm not settling for H if he can't do the work. If he just can't get there. I'm not doing this for the rest of my life. When I'm willing to work my ass off to be part of an amazing relationship, I want someone else who is too.

And do I think H can get there? Yeah, I do. Looking and my plot graph, my trajectory says yes. But I matter in all this. And yes if at some point I come to the conclusion that this is as good as it gets and I'm still in a relationship where I'm giving all to an incredibly self absorbed and selfish person, I'm okay to walk away.

That there is the mindset that keeps me strong and in it. Because I can do anything temporarily. I can tell myself for this moment in time you don't matter and your feelings and needs are on the back burner. But that will not always been the case. It keeps me from pinning hope on him.

No, I don't need the apology or acknowledgment or anything at this time. I'm certainly not in the market for the continuous jokes about it. Most times I don't know how to react to them. But it is interesting to see the shreds of admittance there isn't it? I think the readers of this tale will agree. But if not, I'll leave them out of the next chapter.

Hugs to you my friend!

[tigerlily78]

I must admit I have spent hours and hours over the past few days reading through your journey Raine, I still have 2 threads left to read I think. So far my impression is that you are AMAZING. I am in awe of you and your strength and your perseverance.

I am going to try and steal a lot of pages out of your "book" to carry me through my sitch and I wish you and your H best of luck in this new phase.

[TSquared2]

Hi Raine,

I read your through, and couple few times. Eloquent,as always.

But one thing itched the back of my mind, couldn't quite put my finger on it til this morning:

I’m not okay with sweeping all of this under the rug. I know too much. I don’t want to be in a relationship where there are secrets. There can’t be secrets that involve me, and cheating on me, involves me. There can’t be secrets that he shares with other people that involves me and our marriage. If I know, then I know, and I can stop thinking about it

That ^^^ bothers me, here's why:

It's controlling.

It's conditional.

Hm.

An interesting thing is, while it's controlling, you "give up" control:

"If I know, then I know, and I can stop thinking about it"

So, you do not have the ability to not think about it unless that condition is met? Really?

Hm.

Sounds like programming.

You know I think you're awesome, and it's because I do that I think you can do better than that ^^^^^ .

[TSquared2]

I read your through, and couple few times.

should be :

I read this through...*

I need to read twice before hitting submit.

[Ambivalent]

Hi T.!

I am curious about your post. I understand that for a couple to go forward together there needs to be trust.

Since trust was broken, one partner needs to feel able to trust again.

Many counselors will ask the trust breaking partner to
work on building it back up.

Suggestions have been , unlock phones or give pass numbers
unlock computers or give passwords

Have joint facebook account instead of two separate ones

It may be too soon with Raine and her spouse, but if the spouse is willing to work on marriage, would you then think what she wrote as controlling or just a goal to be achieved?

Everyone has secrets ; when it comes to being intimately involved either sexually or emotionally isn't sharing this with each other a way of becoming a team again? For if it is a secret kept with another ( fling, f-buddy, or affair ) doesn't this keep intimacy with the other, and keep intimacy from the one with whom we are reconnecting?

How would someone be able to completely trust again?

[Raine]

Ah T, there are at least a half dozen mistakes in my posts, and another half dozen I don't catch the second time around. I've come to accept my mediocrity.

It's true. It is controlling and conditional...and honest. There it is. I'm not okay with it. That is the point where this amazingly, miraculously bending-back breaks. So nope, I ain't perfect. I have my limit. I've known my limit for a very long time. I have learned by now that my limits change and my lines do move and I have give a bit more and forgive one more thing. But no, I do have things that he is going to have to do. And I'm not asking a lot.

I probably do have that ability, but I also realize I'm human. I realize that I too have feelings. And if he is incapable of transparency in a relationship, there will always be triggers in the relationship that will cycle me back here. There will be the thought of every business trip, will he sleep with someone this trip? Why do I have any reason to believe he will not? That too can be swept under the rug with everything else he hid from 2010-2013. He can't talk about that, which means he is incapable of talking about future events as well. No, I have a limit. I can't live the rest of my life in a relationship where I do not even have a base level of trust to build on.

Feelings buried alive come back to haunt. And this will have to be dealt with fully for both of us at some point. Perhaps the manner in which it is dealt with will be different than what I'm currently feeling needs to happen in order to resolve it.

[TSquared2]

Here's the way I see it, your mileage may vary.


When the bomb is dropped, they consider themselves emotionally, spiritually D, if not legally or physically. THAT is their mental reality. I did quite a few internships getting my psych degree, in institutions. The patients realities, as "out there" as they seem to us on the outside, ARE VALID to them. Their reality IS reality, just like ours is our reality. Reality is a state of mind, subject to filters unique and personal to each individual.

The schizophrenic's reality, for example, is real. I worked very closely with some, absolutely amazing, and challenging to my pre-conceived ideas of reality (aka, programming).

I consider MLC to be mental instability and/or illness. My observations of W, upfront and close, verifies it for me.

She considered herself "done", D, emotionally. That was her reality, she acted within that reality, and that reality is valid, TO HER.

That is why we are told here, over and over, that the old M was indeed over at BD. They are operating within their new reality from "that day forward". And then there is the whole memory issue...

So let's say we D, and I attract a new woman, and we decide on a committed R. Is it right, or fair, or loving, for me to expect her to divulge all her past lovers, escapades, etc? As a condition of continuing the R?


Having said that, past experience has shown that new lovers DO eventually get around to disclosing a lot of that stuff as a natural part of the bonding process. But to require it?

And what if we think we have it all, but something they forgot to tell us pops up years down the road? They forgot, because for any reason, it just didn't register as important enough to actively remember. So do we toss the R out at that point?

Hm.

I do get what you are saying Raine, I "get" control, heck, my living depends on me being a control freak, because what I do is all about controlling environments. I used to want to know EVERYthing W did, timelines, where, etc. I changed, as a result of my understandings up there ^^^. The control freak needs to stay at work, where he is useful. At home, he is NOT useful.

I do see any possible reconciliation as a totally new R. What happened during her "emotional D" from me matters little, NOW. Curious? Yes, somewhat, lol. But a "need". Nope. I had to do some major work to get there, but there I am, for me. You have said Raine that your lines, wants and needs have changed over time, so have mine. If I can help push your lines here or there, make them fuzzier and/or squishier, I will do so. I think you are worth it, I think we all here are worth it. Being challenged to re-examine our selves, that's our journey here.

Amb, the common wisdom of complete transparency is very applicable to garden variety, everyday affairs. I am not sure so much with a full blown WAS/MLC, because of all that up there ^^^^...different oranges in the apple cart. Different psychological motivations, different reality.

That said, GOING FORWARD from stated and shown reconciliation, I reckon that will happen naturally, and in MC.

"How would someone be able to completely trust again?"

-That starts with you trusting you, completely. In all ways.
-That starts with you making the CHOICE to begin to trust, to give benefit of the doubt.

If you don't do that ^^^^, they won't be able to EVER earn your trust.
Because they will not feel or see results from their attempts to earn it.
They will feel the mis-trust, and mis-trust is insidious.
That is very discouraging.

A new R requires the old marital vow of "from this day forward...". There's a reason that has survivred the test of time...

Ok, folks, "in my opinion" disclaimer enacted...