I've looked at life from both sides now

[Takevowsserious]

Hi Raine dear

You know, there were several things in your post that I could have written myself. I completely understand where you are coming from.

Oh, and hi T. You know I love ya. But I'm going to disagree with you here - my feistiness coming through

I agree with Raine on the no secrets. I think secrets can destroy a R, slowly chip away at the very foundation of it.

In a new R, I wouldn't expect my partner to divulge every last thing that ever happened to them in a R. These things happened BEFORE me. They were not a violation of my trust in any way, not a betrayal.

MLC or not, when an affair happens and trust is broken, it needs to be earned back. And that doesn't happen by sweeping things under the carpet.

I think that unless everything can all be put out there, as much as it can be with the MLC memory, then there is the chance that wound could never heal. Something popping up months or years after could rip that wound open again, undoing everything. I wouldn't want that.

The stander does have to ultimately make a choice - am I going to forgive and move forward?

But I think a lot goes into making that happen. That includes transparency and giving them the benefit of a doubt.

Man, this is a long, treacherous road. Yet we choose to still be on it.

I think you are an amazing woman Raine, I really do. And I'm with ya all the way whatever you do

[Whiterose]

Hi T2 and Raine,

Indeed a lot to think on.
I would like to add that about 11 years ago I became very ill and was in hospital for weeks and on different meds, a couple of which had reactions to each other, which caused me to hallucinate for a few days. I need to state that those things I saw were REAL. They are very real memories for me and were a part of my reality and I can understand how an MLCer would also feel their reality is real. I went so far as to get into full blown arguments with my family that S14 was flushing the cat down a toilet, (as an example). It is only after the medications wore off was I able to come through the fog and understand it was not real BUT yet a part of my new memory......

This is a very small example, I know, but it allows me to understand that my H's reality is not that of ours but real none the less to HIM.

It's given me food for thought. Thank you all for sharing

[Ambivalent]

Okay T.

I hear you. I don't know if I can come to the place where you are so quickly, at least not so "early" in the journey. It is hard for me to swallow that we are in essence "divorced". As I write this , I just got that pain in my stomach.

It is hard because mine comes across so logical and thinking. So when he lies, it is seen as a cognizant choice. It is the choice to deceive, not about what he chooses to conceal.
Especially when I say I only ask for honesty.

I know not all illnesses can be seen with our eyes, so it is harder than Hell to keep hurt down when they act this way.

He is the oddball MLC'er. He apologizes, he is kind, he gives compliments ( when he never did before), he is there if needed. He wants therapy, and he is open about confusion. So deception is truly like chewing a mouthful of Bayer.

I'm trying to let this go. I will have to revisit if or when we R. For trust is something that is very precious to me. One of my core values. I'm not saying that he is a horrible person, I'm just saying that it is something that I truly value, and would like to have in a future relationship.

[TSquared2]

Hey Amb, we all get where we get to in our own time. Though the ideas and seeds of these thoughts were there 2 years ago, it's taken 2 years to get them fairly solid in practice. I still question, doubt, etc.

I do not fully trust W at this time. That is reality.

That doesn't mean there will not come a time where I will have to give trust or benefit of the doubt, in order to get behavior to trust.

So let me toss this thought out there:

If I require total transparency, email accounts, passwords, etc., then I am willing to:
-give all my email accounts, passwords, fb, chat histories, etc
-access to my own bank and CC accounts (like we used to have)
-my login, password and username to this place...DB
-my alternate db fb account, chat histories, etc
-access to my IC sessions...
-and so forth

No.

H3LL NO!...I am not willing to do that ^^^^^, at this time.

So if I am to be consistent with my beliefs, then I cannot demand that of W, until I am ready to do the same.

Privacy, transparency is a two way street. Unless you are punishing. Is punishing going to get me to my goal, as I want it to be?

There is no "some animals are more equal than other animals" in my belief system, in who I want to be.

Just my 2.5 cents...

[Ambivalent]

Ha! I love your Animal Farm quote!

Now, I have to say total transparency was not something I would require of anyone.

Independent counseling is something I would never expect nor ask my spouse to share. If he does, that is his choice.

I do believe if married all accounts to do with financing should be known. As for FB that is very different from this board.

This board is IMHO acts as an individual counseling session, albeit a group session. Similar to AA , AlANON , or any other group therapy.

But phones and yes computers should be open and accessible to the marriage. I don't have anything to hide and would have no issue with him having access to my email accounts, my phone or even FB.

I would like my husband to completely trust me, which I know he does, in this capacity. I believe there are lines to privacy, and DR. patient, Attorney priv. are good. I know men look at porn, mine does. As long as it wasn't illegal, and free, that's something I would prefer honesty about. With a husband and wife, emotional intimacy is a big deal. Women desire to feel safe, and we do need to feel that we can trust. It is an intimacy thing.

I believe I'm validated in the book His Needs/Her Needs on this topic. But whatever. Ultimately it is between the couple. I do see how it would be a big deal for Raine.

I think it would be something I would need to discuss with my H. as well. I do think though, I would want counseling prior to jumping back to living together. But I'm getting WAY ahead of myself here. Raine is in it...oh to have her challenge right now!

Raine, I would love to be where you are at present , but it looks as if I have to follow a bit more of the yellow brick road!.

If it is used as punishment, then I believe there is some serious growth still needed and perhaps counseling. For punishment in my opinion , has no place in a marriage.

[TSquared2]

I like a lot of your reasoning, let's dig a little deeper...

Regarding the Dr./patient info... Let's say you asked H to have a full std panel (and you should if reconcile) and he agrees and does. Would YOU expect him to tell you if it was negative? How about positive? Not volunteering from him, but expecting info, either way, from him? How does that work? What part do you actually control?

If my W and I reconcile, I am going to ask her to do a full std panel. And I am going to have to give her the benefit of the doubt (trust) regarding reporting back the results, either way. Would I trust her completely to report back truthfully? Idk. She would have motivation to lie given a certain outcome. So do I refuse ML until I can somehow get to the truth? And how would that effect the attainment of my goals? Or, is there a way to "trust but verify" that does not initiate the use of force, or coercion, etc? That I can actually control? Yup, get my own at regular intervals until trust is established and I feel/know it. And I trust myself enough to know when I can (and I have read several sitches here where the LBS did exactly that, because they knew their spouse well enough to know how much "confessional" they could handle, and each M is unique as the individuals in it, and it works for me).

Raine's post initiated a bunch of thoughts for me, I don't necessarily agree, nor disagree with her. Her journey is hers, but I hope/think she appreciates someone coming around and questioning things, she seems a thinker. And we all come here to grow, right?

If she "needs" what she posted earlier, that is hers. It is completely okay. But she did post that what she "needed" earlier in the journey has changed, isn't "needed" anymore in the same manner.

Why can't it change again, given different ideas, brain time?

Mine certainly have.

[Ambivalent]

Regarding the Dr./patient info... Let's say you asked H to have a full std panel (and you should if reconcile) and he agrees and does. Would YOU expect him to tell you if it was negative? How about positive? Not volunteering from him, but expecting info, either way, from him? How does that work? What part do you actually control?

I will want the written results . These can be attained, and it would be very reasonable to request these.

I hope so too, but I think we all want to think, learn , and grow.

I tend to think too much, and have to make myself stop.

Trust is a big deal in any relationship, but particularly prickly in a partnership! Heh heh heh...I'm on an alliteration roll tonight!

Why can't it change again, given different ideas, brain time?

Mine certainly have.

I believe it can, but everyone has core values, something that is particular to who they are. She may change, but if it destroys part of who she is, what she values, should she. Would it harm her more than help, and at the same time does it bring her closer to her H. or does it put distance between them?

[Takevowsserious]

I like digging deeper too T!

Some very good thoughts from everyone...

Here's some additional thoughts ~

Maybe there is a difference between transparency and "total" transparency.

Would I expect my H to tell me what he is doing/thinking at every moment of everyday? No.

Would I expect him to divulge details from counseling sessions or a journal? No.

But I agree with A, when if comes to finances, there should be no secrets.

Does that mean you and your spouse have to tell each other everytime you buy something or take money out of ATM? No - that, IMO would fall under "total" transparency.

But should both spouses have access to bank and cc accounts? Absolutely!!! That is transparency.

I have asked my H in the past to give me the access into to OUR cc account. He has flat out refused. I know how much the bills are (because I set up access for myself to our bank accounts), but don't know exactly what our money is being spent on.

That would have to change.

I have also asked him for the info to access our cell phone account. He has flat out refused that as well. That is an account that has my cell phone on it too - I absolutely should be able to access that.

That would have to change as well.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think you bring up a good point T that our ideas can and do change over time. What we feel, think, need change during this journey.

And these things are different for everyone.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You are right too A, that punishment has no place in a M.

So I asked myself the question... Is expecting transparency from my H if we got to a place of reconciliation punishment?

I don't believe so.

At this point, I consider transparency something I would need to help me move forward.

I also think that if I choose to stay in the M, choose to try to trust my H again, I can't spend forever questioning things. I would need some time to do that, but not for the rest of our lives.

There is too much living to do for that

[TSquared2]

I also think that if I choose to stay in the M, choose to try to trust my H again, I can't spend forever questioning things. I would need some time to do that, but not for the rest of our lives.

And this is where trust in yourself comes in to play.

I think most, if not all, of us "knew" something wasn't "right" before BD...thankfully we didn't know exactly what wasn't right, lol, I for one may have run for the hills and missed this opportunity to re-discover the core, real, me.

And I agree on the finances being transparent, for me, we had that before, I do want that again. But other sitches/R's may have different things that work for that particular R. My sister and new H come to mind, she has hers, he has his, and there is a joint account for common responsibilities that both contribute to. Every sitch is unique. A reconciliation means a new R, and the decision to accept terms, or not.

And that is the point of all this, to discover, challenge what our core is, tear down every assumption, every programming, see what IS real, or just "going along with the Jones's", and make changes as needed.

[TSquared2]

Because there is too much living to do otherwise.