I've looked at life from both sides now

[Raine]

Okay, so when the bomb is dropped, they consider themselves D. And maybe I can understand that he felt D or that the relationship was over while separated. How then does it give him a pass for everything that happened for the two years up until BD? I also give him limited leeway on the MLC insanity too. Mental as he may be and way, he was very high functioning. He has known right from wrong all along. He knows he was married. He knows what he has done was wrong because he has said and taken action that demonstrates that he knows he has done wrong. And let's not just include me in this, he was messing around with multiple women at the same time. He was not honest or faithful to anyone. He was using, lying, and betraying all parties involved. He knows that is not right, hurting multiple people. And here is the thing: MLC doesn't last forever. If it does, and he is stuck, there is no us anyway. And if he comes out, then he should be human enough to recognize that amends should be made. Do I want to be with someone who now is through the depression fog and can clearly see the damage he has done, chooses not to do anything about it, to justify it, to bury it? No, I don't think so. Sounds like a template for being hurt and disregarded the rest of my life.

Going into C after BD1, he said through the tears that he cannot believe that he has done this to us, to our marriage, that we are there because of him. He has said multiple times since then that he is the problem. When I have apologized for things I have done in the past, he will say that nothing I have done compares to what he has done.

Hiding it is a clear sign that it was wrong and hurtful to me. There is an obvious elephant in the room that makes things uncomfortable in many situations for both him and I. A new relationship cannot start on that foundation for either of us. Yeah, that's right. I know him. I seriously doubt he could have a relationship with me either when we both know there is a set of secrets out there.

This is a new relationship, metaphorically. But the past and history is there. This is not a relationship with some new guy. That would be so easy. Oh my heck, so dang easy. New guy, all on the table easy. New guy would have compassion for what I have gone through. New guy would care.

So what if something pops up that was forgotten? I don't think anything major would be forgotten. No, it would not be a big deal. It is the telling and being forthcoming with the honesty that is important. It's more than just knowing that if I asked, he would tell. I want to be with someone who is going to be honest and tell me things he should without me having to ask.

I really don't feel like this is controlling at all honestly. I have something that I need from anyone I'm in a relationship with. I accept that he may not be able to deliver on that, and that could be more important to him that a relationship with me. That's fine. I can accept that. Either he gets there or he doesn't. I'm not forcing him to get there. He doesn't have to be with me. That's his choice. I accept there are things he needs in a relationship, and he'll have to accept that I have things too. I'm a bit much, I know.

It matters. It matters to me. There is no grounds for trust right now. There is no relationship. How can there be? How can there be a relationship that is built on a lie? It feels fake. It has to hit real at some point. I can't have a relationship with him and have all this stuff off the table with him, yet I'm sharing it with others? So much of me, so much of my relationship with him, not shared with him? No. I don't want that.

[beatrice]

This is a new relationship, metaphorically. But the past and history is there. This is not a relationship with some new guy. That would be so easy. Oh my heck, so dang easy.

I do get where you are coming from - although I am not so sure that a new r is really easier. Depends on the people!

I think the problem is not simply what the MLCer 'did' while in the throes of MLC, but the beliefs underlying this, that it was somehow OK to do those things while still married because in their heads they considered they were not.

Trust is about behaviours - what people actually do, not what they say, Behaviour doesn't lie.


The truth is that this person thought what they did was OK at the time. That they were entitled to act in that way, without concern for the feelings and welfare of others. Now they may have changed their mind, but what about their underlying beliefs?

[Raine]

I don't know a worse pretense to start a relationship on than this. Seems like we need to take it all. There is the good of the history there, the strength that this new relationship rises from. I think to try and disregard the past as if it had nothing to do with me or our marriage is kidding myself. I'm not in mlc. I'm not in the land of whatever I think and can justify is right. And I have done a lot of things wrong. And at some point I will probably need to put those things on the table. Because secrets kill a relationship, no doubt. It's not the unfaithfulness. It's the hiding. It's the lying. And it works both ways. I can't hold secrets from him and be completely devoted to him either. It's not about the details. And right now he isn't capable of handling anything coming from me. And knowing him, and as he has always said, he doesn't want to know. But even that there isn't right or fair.

Now as far as my H goes and the matter of right and wrong, it's clear he knows it is wrong. Wrong in every sense. He views it as such. But, it was what he wanted to do. And however he needed to justify it to himself, if he even needed to do that, he did. But he did it with full awareness that it was wrong, but the desire and drive to do it was greater.

And that's why now and during he was so racked with guilt. He is going to have to work through that and I sense part of working through that is going to be the need to make amends, and not just to me. I can't see it being healthy for him to disregard the past and pretend it was previous relationships before me, not involving me, and that it was okay to treat others like that. I don't see how that could be healthy for him when he has so much guilt there.

His behaviors is what I watch. His behavior shows he cares about me, he wants me, he is married. But there is that cog-dis. Almost like it's easier to change one's moral belief system than it is to go through the process of seeking forgiveness and making things right when he knows he has done wrong.

[LoisB]

Okay, so when the bomb is dropped, they consider themselves D. And maybe I can understand that he felt D or that the relationship was over while separated. How then does it give him a pass for everything that happened for the two years up until BD? I also give him limited leeway on the MLC insanity too. Mental as he may be and way, he was very high functioning. He has known right from wrong all along. He knows he was married. He knows what he has done was wrong because he has said and taken action that demonstrates that he knows he has done wrong. And let's not just include me in this, he was messing around with multiple women at the same time. He was not honest or faithful to anyone. He was using, lying, and betraying all parties involved. He knows that is not right, hurting multiple people. And here is the thing: MLC doesn't last forever. If it does, and he is stuck, there is no us anyway. And if he comes out, then he should be human enough to recognize that amends should be made. Do I want to be with someone who now is through the depression fog and can clearly see the damage he has done, chooses not to do anything about it, to justify it, to bury it? No, I don't think so. Sounds like a template for being hurt and disregarded the rest of my life.

Raine, what you wrote here is huge for me. I mean, when we choose to stand, aren't we behaving out of faith? We are acting on faith that the person we are standing for is still, ultimately, good but sick or making poor decisions out of pain, confusion, hurt.

So, what if that pain and hurt isn't truly a justification for this behavior.

I've been horribly, severely clinically depressed before. I didn't cheat.

Is a person who is capable of convincing himself that an affair is justified, always able to convince himself to skirt moral right and wrongs?

Heather

[TSquared2]

Okay, so when the bomb is dropped, they consider themselves D. And maybe I can understand that he felt D or that the relationship was over while separated. How then does it give him a pass for everything that happened for the two years up until BD? I also give him limited leeway on the MLC insanity too. Mental as he may be and way, he was very high functioning. He has known right from wrong all along. He knows he was married. He kn.......

How many times has job and the vets said that by the time we get BD, they are already halfway or more into their crisis??
So that covers 2-4 years before BD. MLC 101.

Raine, I am not picking on you, but since I see from your posts that H is just about there there, I also see some things that as a guy, bother me and can see them causing issues in reconciliation and R down the road. I understand you have a bunch of buried feelings, hurt, anger that have been on hold for a long time. I do understand that.

But I see some controlling that raise alarms.
I see a bunch of conditionality.
I see a bunch of mindreading.

Just being honest.
Because you deserve it. You are worth it.

I am not saying these are right or wrong, just take a deeper look at things, that's all. You don't have to agree or change one darn neuron of opinion.

I think you are used to things going the way you want them to, you are used to making things happen in accordance with what you want. You are a successful business woman, successful Mom, and just from your writing I can see a driven, results-oriented person. That is good, attractive stuff. But it can also be a problem sometimes. I think you also said that H was pretty passive in the R previously, so you are used to driving the bus. I feel that in your latest posts.

Just stuff that, as a guy, you might want to take a second look at.

You are so close. I'd hate to see expectations at this point sabotage the progress and process.

You're still awesome, though!

When's Wonka getting over here, lol? Love to see the input from someone who knows the other side...

[TSquared2]

I've been horribly, severely clinically depressed before. I didn't cheat.

Is a person who is capable of convincing himself that an affair is justified, always able to convince himself to skirt moral right and wrongs?

I think all people can be rather adept at justifying a lot of things. Humans are historically rather good at that behavior

Problem is, you are using that word, "always". People change all the time, everything changes constantly. She or he may be able to skirt now, but maybe not in 3 months, or 5 years...who knows?

You or I haven't been 100% unchanging always perfect our whole lives, right?

[LoisB]

Noted.

And, this is a journeyeeeeeee....

So, I'm changing. Can't speak for him, but I'm changing. Who I am today isn't the person I was.

And, I had a sh!tty childhood. But, even I had more support emotionally than my H did.

This is where faith come into play, isn't it?

[makingmagic]

Hi Raine ~ I would give my right arm to be in your position at this point, I so eagerly want to have the opportunity to see if my H is willing to do the "work" with me... I can see this is trouble-some for you. Please appreciate where you are and don't sabotage your position.. Go slow!

T2 ~ you made a HUGE point: OUR SELF-DISCOVERY!!

I think most, if not all, of us "knew" something wasn't "right" before BD...thankfully we didn't know exactly what wasn't right, lol, I for one may have run for the hills and missed this opportunity to re-discover the core, real, me.

This is soooo hard, but if it was easy...it wouldn't be worth it!

Bustin on!!

Magic!

[TSquared2]

This is where faith come into play, isn't it?

...in yourself...yes.




And for that whole transparency discussion, what I am trying to work through myself, is, what does that REALLY look like? Being who I am, I'd rather figure out as much of that as possible NOW, BEFORE I get to where I need to apply anything like that.

I certainly don't want to be stumbling along making it up, figuring it, out as a reconciliation is in progress...just don't see that as aiding the process.

And it isn't as cut-n-dry as one might think.

[LoisB]

But, if you choose to reconcile, it's also faith in the other person, isn't it?

Because, you not only have to have faith in who you are, but in the core of the other person.

Right? I mean, you can't have a guarantee that the other person won't screw up again, so you have to have faith that the core of that person is good-and not hurting you with the intention of hurting you???