Hey T-dude, you're the one who said at BD they consider themselves D. Yes I can play devil’s advocate too. And, no worries. I see huge problems and issues in reconciliation and R down the road. That’s why I’m in this mindset now. Do I have conditions? Hell yes. I would have them in any relationship. Condition #1: I am not a doormat. Giving and overlooking and setting myself up for future "MLC" or "Whatever floats my boat" excuses to do things that are morally or ethically wrong makes me feel like a doormat. Maybe it's the woman in me. Maybe I'm just not capable of complete selflessness. I accept that.
Whether or not he feels like he was D at whatever point in time is moot to me. What matters to me is how he views it going forward. If he can look at it and say “that was wrong, I’ve hurt you, I would never do that to anyone again.” If he can't, that is a very scary person to be married to. Is it possible he could make amends and still cheat in the future? Sure. But, I would venture it is much more likely that he would again if he is able to justify what he did as okay. If that’s the case, what am I waiting for then? A job loss? A sickness? A death? What then will be the next thing that comes up that he is incapable of handling that he then has to seek something detrimental to the marriage as a coping mechanism? It's a ticking time bomb. There is always going to be rocky moments in a relationship and in life in general. Knowing how it was dealt with in the past, and it was accepted as "insert reason here," why not again? What prevents the next crisis and the next?
I have to be real in this. I have to lay it all out there, my humanly flawed nature. My reality. I look back at who I was 18 months ago, and I owe it to her. There are a lot of newly BD readers who see where I’m at in my story and think, “It’s possible. It's easy. This is what I have to do to get there.” I was one of those readers. And I don’t want to blow smoke as if I did everything right, as if I was perfect. Yes, I know the perfect answers. I could give them, but who is that really helping? I'm not losing myself through this. I feel way too much and love way too deeply.
I need to document how I got there. I need to document how I worked through this. It’s very unrealistic to think that most people would not continue to harbor pain and resentment if they were not able to work through it. And I venture to say it has to be difficult for most people to stay in a relationship, with said pain, and have to work through it without anything from the other spouse.
I can’t pretend one thing, when I know something entirely different is true. I cannot lie to myself. I can’t tell myself pat answers and make it all okay. I don’t know how it’s going to be worked through yet. But it has to be. It’s very unrealistic to think that someone in a relationship would not have expectations, hopes, and ideals. I think that’s pretty unfair to deem that controlling. I don’t want a static, eggshell relationship.
I have a black belt in mindreading. I own it. I have a trophy for it. It’s not going to stop. Honestly though, I do have great perception and that has gotten me pretty darn far.
Let me make it very clear though, I’m not acting on my fears. I own their existence. I’m not sure when they are going to be resolved or how, but they will keep me from having a lasting relationship with H, no doubt. I’m not approaching him about this. I’m not asking him for anything. My IC asked me what my game plan on that was, knowing that H is very passive and could remain here for a while, or forever. My game plan right now is still the same. Give him space to work on himself. Give him that space without the pressures of a relationship. Focus on putting pressure on the places that matter, like him continuing with more IC. I am there for him. I initiate and accept from him. I’m the world’s biggest sweetheart.
{Updates} But here is the other part. Here is my honesty. I am scared to death at how fast this is moving. Physical contact is moving from raw needs to affection. It’s now hugs, and kisses, and holding, and back rubs, and pet names are slipping out. He wants to spend every moment with me. He contacts me when he is away. He is so protective. He is a constant shadow.
He is aware that there is pain there. I know he can see it, and he is trying. He is trying to comfort and heal that without blowing it all up. I know he is trying so hard. And my heart is still way back there, trying to catch up. This is the point in our journey where he is way ahead of me. Where he is leading.
He is still cautious. Especially in the mornings, which is interesting. He is much more affectionate at night, but as he leaves for the day, he seems skittish.
Communication has gotten interesting. He started doing text book communication things and active listening, where I had to stop and make sure my jaw was not on the ground. He is apologizing for things, perhaps overly so. He is thanking me for telling him things, restating what I’ve said. Here's some examples, plus other positive updates:
I was feeling a "whatever" vibe towards him because I had done something nice for him, and he saw it, but ignored it. Not only did he not acknowledge I had done it, but he completely disregarded it and avoided it. So teenagerish. I could feel myself getting to the point of saying, "You know I’m not going to bother doing anything for you when it's clear you don’t appreciate it or want it." And a bunch of other passive aggressiveness. But I waited. I waited until I was much calmer and in a good place and I just said, "Did I annoy you by doing that?" He said no. And I said, "I thought I was doing something nice for you, but I’ve been worried I annoyed you." He said, "No you didn’t." and I said, "Would you tell me if I did?” and he said, "I don’t know? Would I?" And I said, "No, you wouldn’t. But you need to."
And another:
He was texting someone. And showed me. She had a question for him, but the first thing I read is the first msg on the screen from her...."are you and Raine doing better? I saw your pics on fb" His response: "No" and there was more but I stopped reading and turned away. A few mins later I said, "H, when you showed me that text, I read the top texts."
And he says, "Oh!" And I said, "I just saw where you said ‘no’ and stopped reading."
And he says, "Okay first off, that was back in June. And you know where we were in June. Secondly, let me read you what it says. The full thing was, 'No, we feel comfortable hanging out together. We still hang out.'" He then says, "I don't feel like I need to tell anyone about where you and I are. That was a way to answer her without saying anything. And that was quite awhile ago."
I just said, no problem and I had just felt like I had read something accidentally that I shouldn’t have.
About five minutes later he says, "Thanks for telling me and letting me know you were annoyed. I appreciate you telling me when you're annoyed. Not all the time though. So keep it to a limit."
And another: He had friends coming over and he wanted to know what I wanted to do. He kept telling them, "No, I think Raine would like this better." I said to him, "You guys just do what you want. I don't need to be there." And he said, "F that! I hardly ever get to spend time with you. They can do something you'll enjoy."
Yeah, I should add that we have spent every moment together outside of work and three hours on Friday night this last week. We went on two dates, just him and I, and have done a lot of family time together too. So yes. F that and not having hardly any time with me.
Last one: We went out to dinner as a family, and towards the end a couple who looked like recently empty nesters came up to our table and said, "You have such a lovely family. We don't know how you do it. We have been watching your family all night. We cannot believe how you have these four little boys and every single one of them is so well behaved. We would have never been able to be here with our kids at this age. Thank you for making our night by watching your cute, happy family."
H was beaming. He looked so proud.
I want this. I want him. I’m in love with him. I love him. (That is by far the scariest thing I’ve admitted to yet.) But we are not saying anything, yet.
I want it to work. I would give anything to be here. Even as I am here now. I want this. I'm holding back on my expectations. I'm trying to keep it in the right mindset. I'm trying to be cautious and not push him. And I want it. I don't want a recovered relationship. I want it all. I want to be able to be me and give all of me.
I have so many things I want to respond to here. I used to be able to once the kids were in bed, but not anymore. Thank you so much to everyone who has been posting here. It means so much to me and helps me more than I could ever express. I read every post at least twice.
Raine, He is slowly waking up and if you continue to be patient a while longer, I do believe you will have it all. He's still quite fragile and is trying to ensure that you know what he's doing and wants to please you if he can. He's still very new to his new skin and that's going to take some time getting use to. Both of you have had a long journey of pain and hurt and now you both are trying to learn a new dance, i.e., a new dance of reconciliation. I really do think he's trying the best he can right now.
I know you want to get to the finish line, but it's not going to be any time soon. I'm thinking it might be as late as June before he's truly settled down. You will get the opportunity to have some serious discussions w/him in the new year. I think he'll be ready to hear what you have to say by then and will be willing to open up more to you. For now, you need to have faith in yourself, your h and in the new relationship that you both are forging ahead with, as well as faith in the man upstairs.
I, personally, think you've doing a great job of dealing w/the hand that you were dealt, as well as being able to come here and talk to us about your journey. All I'm asking is that you dig a little bit deeper for more patience. Raine, everything will fall into place and a new marriage will be built...but it takes some time. Patience and more patience are required at this crucial stage of the journey.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Cause if one cannot forgive, then there is no reason to be here....
Would you agree ???
What does forgiveness look like ???
I agree, naturally...
And in my case, I had thought I had the EGO/PRIDE thingy down real good.
Then the PA that I always kinda suspected/was in denial about was verified in Feb. Turns out, I had little down good at all.
Got my backside handed back to me on a cheap plastic platter with chipped edges.
There was lots more work to do, especially in the EGO/PRIDE area. I thought I had it down better in Sept when I sent W the "all forgiven, from this day forward" text. And it may, or may not, have been or is being tested (unconsciously or not). Not sure. Doesn't matter now, too terribly much, think I have the EGO/PRIDE thingy more worked out.
I want to forgive, therefore it's up to me to figure out how to get there.
I have an idea of what it looks like, but it's not yet complete...there is a core visual, but the edges have some fuzziness...
In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus
Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm
Sitting here in the peanut gallery, I have to say I really appreciate your candor Raine. To be able to be honest with yourself is one thing, to put it here on the boards where the rest of us can learn from it is really commendable. Thank you for having the courage to keep your experience open to us, even for the bits that might be hard to fess up to.
me-35 WAS-37 T-16 1/2 Son-14 (HF Aspergers) BD,ILYBINILWY,"I met my soulmate": Oct5,2013 "Letting go because I love him, holding on because I love him."
The Pats lost in a true nail biting fashion with 6 seconds to go in the red zone!
FY, I watched The Wheel of Fortune earlier tonight. At the very last game in the final round, the category was "phrase" and there were only about 5 RSTLNE letters up on the board. The bonus letters did not show up. And the contestant guessed the phrase at the very last second as "Forever Young" ! My jaw nearly dropped to my lap while sitting in my relciner chair. It made me think of you. _______________________________ Raine, let's rumble on!!
I'm going to split the post into two sections. The first will cover you as the LBS and the second will cover the MLCer's POV in which I'll post from the perspective as a reformed MLCer badass. ________________________________ Based on what I've gleaned from your recent posts, the following are general themes that have emerged from your stream of consciousness.
Fear of the unknown Trust Acknowledgement of the hurt and betrayal Forgiveness Transparency Emotional triggers Expectations Vulnerability
All of above words can be summarized as in an executive summary to the executive in you, Raine: It is always a choice whether to achieve clarity or remain in conflicted projection.
You might want to consider the following issues.
Fear of the unknown: Having the TNT detonated right under your own feet without any prior warning has certainly scared the bejesus outta you. No two ways about it! What I see about the conflicted projection is that you are projecting your fears of the unknown into the future of a "potential" yet-to-be identified second crisis that you feel will undercut your already fragile sense of marital security because you THINK that H will not be able to cope with them SHOULD and IF that WOULD happen in, say, 1, 3 or 5 years down the road.
Sit down with this fear and talk with it. What is the inner child trying to tell you here?
Trust: There's been a spirited discussion on this topic! It is something worth to delve into the very core issue. At it's most basic level, it is doubting yourself and convincing yourself that you're less than you are. Trust yourself and be confident of the answers from within.
When trust is broken between intimate partners, it casues and forces the underlying issues to brought to the surface to be examined. Which is what you're doing here and through IC.
What does "trust" mean to you? What did you learn about it growing up? How does that color your worldview?
You mentioned that H 'knew' what he did was "morally" and "ethically wrong." Based on what? It is a matter of perception and interpretation.
Acknowledgement of the hurt and betrayal: What I am hearing here is that you're mourning the loss of innocence. We all first got married filled with hope, love, and wholesome young innocence. Right? When that "everlasting promise" is seriously breached by an A, all of our preconceived notions about what constitutes a marriage comes crashing down on our heads. It is a deep wound inflicted unilaterally into our psyches and souls.
This is much more pronounced and prolonged due to the loooong nature of the MLC process.
Can you accept the pain and let it go? Can you stop your mind from dwelling on it? Can you glance at it and acknowledge it? Can you stop making a big deal out of it?
Doing your best will not always prevent pain, Raine.
Forgiveness: Not giving yourself nor H true forgiveness continues to poison the marriage. True forgiveness means that you are no longer willing to slowly keep drinking that poison. You know the Snow White story. Yet it does not necessarily mean that you condone H's actions/behaviors.
Are you there yet? No? Keep working on that cong-dis within you. Hell, I'm STILL working at this long after Ms. Wonka walked out the door 9 years ago!
Transparency: For what true purpose does being "transparent" serve to you? How would that look to you? Does H have any input on this? Is H in agreement with you on this?
How can one delineate between transparency and control?
You cannot possibly ask H do X, Y, & Z by COB or assign a hard deadline using a Visio flow chart. You'd like that very much! Just be fully cognizant of the bleed over effect from the office into the home sanctuary.
Emotional triggers: I find it particularly striking that you were not able to share with H about these emotional triggers. What is holding you back? What are the fears that block you from this? Do you feel not safe in doing this?
Your H is clearly starting to notice the effects, but doesn't really know the WHY's.
Which leads right to the next issue:
Vulnerability: Emotional intimacy requires a certain level of vulnerability. Opening up about your emotional triggers suggests some range of vulnerability that circles back to trust. If all three are not aligned and clearly defined by you, then what can YOU do to push the needle in the direction that you WANT TO?
What are your expectations? In relation to you? In relation to H? In relation to the marital relationship?
Expectations: It is the human saying to oneself, "I predict that A will take place, and B will occur and C is the outcome." Right?
Now Raine, DBing is akin to having complted your advanced Calculus coursework. Right? Okay...following me so far.
Where is your H in this process? Still in the 3rd grade trying to master long addition problems.
"I work my ass off to be part of an amazing relationship, I want someone else who is too." --Raine
Are you willing to be patient and let H catch up? Are you willing to mentor him and show him the ropes?
Transparency: For what true purpose does being "transparent" serve to you? How would that look to you? Does H have any input on this? Is H in agreement with you on this?
How can one delineate between transparency and control?
You cannot possibly ask H do X, Y, & Z by COB or assign a hard deadline using a Visio flow chart. You'd like that very much! Just be fully cognizant of the bleed over effect from the office into the home sanctuary.
We use words to try and delineate emotional states that are sometimes beyond the scope of words to fully pin down.
I do not want to put words into Raine's mouth, and honestly I think she is getting a lot of fairly critical advice for being so honest. I am not sure that I wouldn't retreat under the barrage of helpfulness. Which I am aware says a lot about me.
I do feel that the LBS is required to be 'perfect' and not human. Where human means wrestling with this stuff and not always winning, not always feeling what people feel we ought.
For me transparency is in part a reversal of the secrecy that was part of the affair. Adultery is never justifiable, however much the adulterer attempts to justify their actions.
But transparency is also emotional openness, a willingness to become emotionally intimate, without the shutters up.
It is not telling the other every past thing, but it is also NOT refraining from saying things that matter to the marriage This includes emotional involvement with another person, (let alone physical involvement) as a betrayal of intimacy, but also over money. Hiding things is what MLCers are good at, and it is they who get to decide what they keep hidden. This is not transparency
Psychotherapists have long observed that the betrayed take longer to heal emotionally than the betrayer, because their trust was broken by the betrayer. The betrayer suffered no comparable injury, and cannot therefore understand this.
For me, asking for openness and transparency is not about controlling the other - it is understanding whether or not the other person is willing to be transparent, and if they are not, then warning flags start appearing.
I understand some of why a person who has a MLC learns to hide things, but that is something they need to deal with, not bring back into the marriage.
Yes I can play devil’s advocate too. And, no worries. I see huge problems and issues in reconciliation and R down the road. That’s why I’m in this mindset now. Do I have conditions? Hell yes. I would have them in any relationship. Condition #1: I am not a doormat. Giving and overlooking and setting myself up for future "MLC" or "Whatever floats my boat" excuses to do things that are morally or ethically wrong makes me feel like a doormat. Maybe it's the woman in me. Maybe I'm just not capable of complete selflessness. I accept that.
