I've looked at life from both sides now

[Takevowsserious]

Yes Bea, yes!

I feel like Raine is taking a lot of heat for expecting transparency - and I'm not so sure she should be.

Yes, while dealing with an individual in crisis, we know to keep those expectations at zero.

But what about a couple who is reconciled?

I think as the LBS, we spend so long dealing with no expectations, that we forget - a normal, healthy relationship SHOULD have expectations.

If I ever get there (fingers crossed, lol!), I would expect my H to be honest , faithful, loving, devoted, caring, and willing to do the work to make our marriage a good one. Am I wrong for that? I don't think so.

I have said this before, and I continue to believe it is true..

THERE IS NO ROOM FOR SECRETS AND LIES IN A MARRIAGE OR RELATIONSHIP.

If someone is lying/hiding something, there's usually a reason why.

I realize we all have our limits, all have our own defining things that we need in a relationship.

Raine, only you truly know what you need and what you can live with. And that is more than okay

[LoisB]

Bea,

Thanks you for putting this into words. Exactly!!!

For me transparency is in part a reversal of the secrecy that was part of the affair. Adultery is never justifiable, however much the adulterer attempts to justify their actions.

And, Raine, thank you for your honesty.

Heather

[Wonka]

We all agree that transparency and openess is a requisite path to a successful reconciliation. How we arrive at that point is something that both partners must be in mutual agreement and are invested in the process. Is the LBS ready for it? Is the WAS ready for it? Especially if the WAS is a MLCer. More on that later.

My recent post was to probe and prod in a Socratic way. Whether it succeeded or not is immaterial. It is not necessary for Raine to answer these questions here. The purpose is to bring on some new awareness and unhearth some hidden thought patterns that affect the emotions. Hopefully we all can learn from this thanks to Raine's searingly honest posts.

What is our truth? Is it real?

No wonder Titanium Raine has achieved a black belt in this process!!

[TSquared2]

Hey there R-woman...

I'll play your devil's advocate anytime.

On my threads and sitch, you've held my feet to the fire of my own words, like when the PA was verified...

You've told me "Hey, dude, you may want to re-think that, because as a woman here is how I would interpret that and react to what you are thinking of doing..."

More than once or twice.

And I am forever grateful you did. You helped me re-think things, re-examine things, kept me from doing things that may have hindered my goal of R. Our mlc'ers have a lot of common behaviors, internal motivators, common paths in their journeys.

Those times I disagreed? Well, at least I gave them the benefit of a re-examination, so I was sure that hill was indeed the hill I wanted to die on, or how I viewed things was indeed, how I wanted to view things.

You helped me move forward, grow.

Because I'm not here to just wait this mlc thing out.

Thank you, R-Woman...you know I think you are absolutely awesome!

[Raine]

These posts are really great. I feel like everything is coming from a place of love and care, and I can take the heat. I can dish it back too, and give you eyebrow raising nicknames, right T-Dawg? Please hijack away. I don't see it as such anyway. This is all really great stuff. Lots I'm processing now.

What does transparency look like to me? He knows what is okay in a relationship and what is not. Total transparency means that he is honest and forthcoming about things without me having to look. Without me having to ask. I don't want access to anything. I want him to trust me that he can tell me anything and we can deal with it and work through it and that neither of us is perfect. Total transparency means I go back to being able to tell him everything and anything too. I can have access to everything and then what, I have to check it? I'm forever obsessed by him and what he is doing and with who? Something happens and then I have to approach him about it? No. That sounds crappy.

I have told him about emotional triggers. I have told him not only does "this" emotional trigger upset me, but it upsets me that I even have them. Having them makes me more upset than the actual trigger. I have told him the beard is a trigger. Him flirting with another married woman is a trigger, even though I know she is completely safe. Complimenting women is a trigger. So yes, he has gotten a few, but I think I'm missing something that I said to you that in turn was questioned as to "why I'm not telling him." For the most part, I'm not telling him things because I worry about scaring him and pushing him back in the tunnel. I don't know what he can handle. My thought is that even though he is dropping hints like, "We aren't in the same place we were in June." And saying things like "Our relationship," he has not come out and said he wants to work on it or that we are back together.

Now I had an epiphany about this. This is something that he did before me with another situation. He stopped going to church for a few years, and then went back again for almost a full year before he would admit to anyone or even himself that he was in fact back and active in religion. Sounds a bit familiar. So forcing him to admit to himself or anyone else that he is in a relationship with me again...probably not ready for that.

"You mentioned that H 'knew' what he did was "morally" and "ethically wrong." Based on what? It is a matter of perception and interpretation."

Based on his view point and what he has said about others doing the same thing. Based on his own words, that when he does something minor he will say, "I'm going to hell for much worse reasons than that." Based on him telling me he has done a lot of things wrong. Based on his religious view points, but not sure what he really feels about them now. Based on him telling me before BD that something was wrong and he needed C. Even as far back as 2010 he was telling me something was wrong.

But...I do have some doubts in there that need to be worked out. Saying and thinking could be very different things for him. If he is truly of the mindset that it's okay to be married to one person and sleeping with another person, and I don't care what the reasoning is in there to justify it, that's not a healthy person for me to be married to. I'm not interested in an open marriage or a marriage with hidden affairs.

[uRworthy]

Raine, I want to thank you for your honesty, for owning your stuff, for being willing to look inside and sharing what you see. That takes a great deal of courage.

I think that it is important to understand that each individual must decide with their partners what is acceptable and what isnt, what is expected and what isnt. There is no one size fits all. What I might need in a reconnected relationship might now be what someone else needs.

I do believe that in order to have a new marriage, the LBS must forgive. That is essential. Without that, there really isnt a point to all this.

And I feel that the LBS must trust themselves. They must feel confident in their choices and their ability to make sound decisions.

I think that a healthy relationship should comprise of many things, two of the most important are respect and the shared goal of trust. How that happens is up to the two people involved. What they need and what they are willing to do to get to their shared goal.

I think building trust starts with both people wanting the relationship. It starts out in small things. The ability of the LBS to be willing to work towards trust, and the other person showing consistent actions matching their words. The idea is to begin to trust, then verify that trust. As you work towards it, you should both have a committment to take care of it in whatever way you both decide.

[Feenix]

Wow...this thread is very, very deep! I am going to have to reread the posts just to absorb it all!

Raine, I think you are amazing for being so honest.

Thank you for your insight!

[CallaghanClown]

Rains I've finally got from top to bottom with your sitch......you my dear are one brave sister. Whatever happens in your R doesn't matter a jot....you're string enough for anything. I hear that wavering a little recently. I think you need some YOU time. Reconnect with that string women that stood for what she believed in.

[CallaghanClown]

Strong not string.....got to love technology!

[Raine]

Hey everyone! Thank you again for all of your posts and insights. Man alive this has been some really helpful stuff for me to go back to over and over again. I’ve been spinning like a top. Thank goodness for this board and the great friends from here to keep me grounded.

People keep saying on my thread and others that when the LBS gets to where I am now, that I just want big, huge, massive steps to get us to the finish line. Uh huh. No. That’s not it. I feel like H and I are taking massive steps and my heart is way back at the top of the hill yelling, “Hold on! What about this? How can you be there, when you never did this?”

Yes, I know. My expectations. My “non-expectations” that even as they are “non-expectations,” there is still the expectation that nothing is going to happen. Because I have “no expectations” that what is happening will actually happen. Clear as mud?

There is no preparing for this. I don’t have a script for this. This is the moment where I can’t fake it. The spotlight is on, and it’s time to show who I really am, where I really stand. Am I really the woman I think I am? Am I really doing all this as a means to an end, or is this really me?

This is me.

I am now ready to admit that major things are happening.

H and I had a conversation. In that conversation he out of the blue acknowledged that he was oblivious to things in the past. He took responsibility for something that he had put on me before. He took responsibility for something that was part of the building of resentment in me because of his self-absorption. And my reaction was to make an excuse for it. “No, it was okay. You were concerned about this and that. I feel bad for my role in it.” And he said “Thanks, but I don’t think of it like that anymore. I was oblivious to a lot that was going on, and I don’t want to get back into feeling that I can be entitled to feel shitty about that stuff.” And I had a “wow,” reaction. I was not expecting that.

He brought it up again later that night. I just thanked him for saying it.

The next night some things happened where I was spinning. He was doing an event where he had invited members from OW1 department to participate. He was telling me all about it, but there felt like there was this major hole in the story. And he also made some jokes that really hit me to the core. And he knew. He knew I went inside myself.

I finally thought, forget this. I am so done with trying to hide what is going on and what I’m feeling because he is in such a delicate state. And so I just came right out and said, “I’m spinning and I need to ask you some things.”

I asked him if OW1 was involved in the event. He said no, she was not invited. And he has not had any communication with her for a very long time. I started asking questions. He admitted to when things started with OW1 and also admitted to #4 by name and timelines. The strange thing was he didn’t admit to the others, denied there was ever more than those two, even though he has said there were others before. And the timelines were off. He made it sound like he never did anything with OW1 until he and I were separated, and that he never did anything with ow4 until he was broken up with ow1. He made it sound like ow1 was a real relationship to him. That he started having deep feelings for her two months before BD. Ow4 was more of a make out buddy.

None of this was all that accurate in reality, but I don’t know if it’s what he wants me to believe, that he was only “committed” with one at a time, that he only did stuff when he felt he had broken it off with me, or if his timelines are so messed up right now he doesn’t really know which way is up? I even said, why don’t you just get it all out? I know you’re not being fully honest.” But he just said that was it, there wasn’t anything more. I stopped asking questions.

He told me he wants me to ask questions. He doesn’t want me spinning. He knows that I am and it makes him want to leave the MBR because he can’t fix it. Not that that he doesn’t want to be there, but he feels like it’s my sanctuary and he is invading it and he is the reason I’m having a hard time, and if he were to leave, I could be at peace. He feels like if he can hold me then I can put it out of my mind and then it’s fine. But it brings him a lot of anxiety and stress. I got the sense that he feels like he really needs me, but at the same time I am better off without him. He said that he is trying so hard. That he is here. He is doing everything he can. But when I’m like that he gets stressed and angry.

He said at BD he felt so much anger towards me. But now he doesn’t know why. It doesn’t make sense to him. He knows how he felt then, but it’s illogical to him. He can’t see why he felt that way. He felt I was controlling and he was taking back control, but there was so much anger there too. He didn’t care if he hurt me. He felt justified in doing everything he did. He doesn't feel that way now, but at the time he did. He said there was no rational reason for him to feel the way he did. He started crying and said all he did was hurt people this last year. He told me he was sorry for hurting me for everything he did.

^^^HE APOLOGIZED^^^

He says he doesn’t want to get back to where he was when this all started, where he could justify his actions. He never wants to be that person again.

I want to get this posted, but I’ll get the rest of what has happened up as soon as I can.