The Brave Man

[ericmsant2]

JF

Finding that for myself is harder.

Why?

Pull out the shovel dude...why?

[JFun51]

Why?

Harder to forgive myself because right now, I haven't been forgiven. The things I carry around currently are regrets that I cannot go to someone to ask for their forgiveness.

-I regret how my R with my Dad deteriorated and ultimately was unresolved at the time of his death. Can't open up and ask him about it.

-I regret how I wasn't there as much for my friend who died at age 36 in May from cancer. Can't make up that time.

-I regret not spending time with my grandfather and grandmother before they passed away. Can't ask for their forgiveness.

-I regret allowing my M to deteriorate to the point of death. My W has yet to forgive me. That is my chit to own. I know MLC would have happened, but my contributions are real.

The only way I can find forgiveness in those things is to accept that I screwed up. Find it from within. Place it at the feet of God and move on. No one is going to come to me with a great certificate of forgiveness to wipe the slate clean. Hard to find that forgiveness in myself for our sitch because I'm still holding on to resentment because I didn't walk away like she did. Anger still exists.

There is a piece of me that always wants to be right. Our ego doesn't allow us to humble ourselves that easily. To forgive myself for these failures is to own them all and fully process them. Tie up the loose ends. Close the doors.

Know that I just wasn't prepared at that moment in my life for what hit me. I was too selfish or caught up in other things to see it. I wasn't giving enough of myself to understand that what I wanted didn't matter, yet my time, my effort, and my presence did matter somewhere else.

Epiphany for me just now:

Harder to find forgiveness for myself because I can't lie to myself. It's easy to tell someone you forgive them and let them move on, but true forgiveness is from within. It isn't a statement or a collection of words. It is a mindset that that person did not mean to harm you or wrong you. They are just human and messed up. Just as I will have to truly find forgiveness for W's transgressions and hurtful words, I gotta find it for myself.

That's a deep hole and I ain't got the roots yet I don't think.

[AJM]

Harder to forgive myself because right now, I haven't been forgiven.

Really? By whom? Who are you waiting to have come by and forgive you? Exactly?

Harder to find forgiveness for myself because I can't lie to myself. It's easy to tell someone you forgive them and let them move on, but true forgiveness is from within. It isn't a statement or a collection of words. It is a mindset that that person did not mean to harm you or wrong you. They are just human and messed up. Just as I will have to truly find forgiveness for W's transgressions and hurtful words, I gotta find it for myself.

You do have a lot to learn. You cannot lie about forgiveness to anyone. They'll find you out.

You are asking the right questions, but you're looking in the wrong places. Let's get that shovel out and get started, shall we?

For starters, your W did what she did. If it wasn't you, it could or would have been somebody else. It still may be at some point. There's a lot that hasn't transpired in your life nor in hers. But in your talk about your epiphany, you were blaming your W

Just as I will have to truly find forgiveness for W's transgressions and hurtful words

I'm not saying she wasn't trying to hurt you. She was most likely. I'm not saying you did or didn't deserve it. It doesn't matter. That's the LEAST of the issues and baggage you need to deal with if you ask me.

-I regret allowing my M to deteriorate to the point of death. My W has yet to forgive me. That is my chit to own. I know MLC would have happened, but my contributions are real.

Yes your contributions are real. Yes it likely would have happened now or ten years from now. But you are NOT waiting for your W to forgive you. Are you?

How can you expect anyone to forgive you if you haven't forgiven yourself?

For a second course - define screwed up for me. I don't see a man that screwed up. I don't see a man that was right or wrong. I see a man that is learning from his past - things that are both good for him and not so good for him.


I realize you are in pain. I realize it would be easy to turn the dial so that you're looking at yourself and containing all of the wrongs and rights in your past. Here's a valuable rule to remember: only own the stuff that's yours. You haven't yet - you're still taking more than yours. That won't work out very well, I can tell you from experience.

Help me understand. Answer that first question and I think it'll help.

For the record - I disagree with Eric in the area of talking to your mother. I'm of the mind that she won't have that conversation with you due to the family history of not showing the emotions. But you're closer to it, and I would very much like to wait for her to be ready to talk about it vs. bringing it up. If it were me.

Keep working at it. You're seeing more and more, but be careful to not own more than your own. It'll slow you down.

AJ

PS - does UR know about the initiation to the boys club?

[JFun51]

More digging.

I want myself to be punished. I don't love myself enough yet to forgive myself. I can't lie to myself. I can't fix or control any of these things.

I love my W even today in her flawed existence. All her scars make her who she is, right or wrong. I love her and accept her.

Maybe I haven't felt loved in so dam long that I can't possibly think that I am a good and worthwhile person. So I beat myself up for all of my failures and continue to revisit them because I feel so unloved that it must be my fault.

[uRworthy]

J, those are some raw feelings there.

I felt those deep down to my core. I dont anymore. I have forgiven myself.

Just wanted to tell you that you wont always feel that way.

It is important for you to realize that you didnt do or not do those things with the intent to hurt or cause harm particularly to your wife or marriage.

You were hurt, you didnt realize, life was happening.

For me, that made a difference in being able to fogive myself.

That and learning from it all, understanding it, and trying each day to do things differently.

Forgiveness is for us. It just is.

I know what it is like to feel unloved, unworthy. I do.

But my mother and others did what they knew, what they learned and the best that they could.

And if I continued to hold onto those feelings and feelings of anger, it didnt change that. But it did change me.

That wasnt ok with me.

We, all of us, make mistakes. Doesnt make us bad people. Doesnt make us unworthy of forgiveness. It just makes us human.

It is in holding onto those regrets, it is in not changing and growing, that are the real issues.

I know you feel badly about your dad, your friend, your wife.

Feel that and than let it go. Trust that they did the best they could and that you did, too.

Then forgive you. Because if you dont, you dont move forward. You stop figuring out how you can become the best you.

I found for me, the way to really forgive myself was to acknowledge that I am not a bad person. I am not unloving or unkind. I am just someone who tries to do the right thing. Sometimes I do, sometimes not, but, that is always the goal.

I want to ask you something.

Why is it that you can love and accept your wife with all her scars, and you cannot love you with all yours?

[JFun51]

I found for me, the way to really forgive myself was to acknowledge that I am not a bad person. I am not unloving or unkind.

Why is it that you can love and accept your wife with all her scars, and you cannot love you with all yours?

I am not a bad person. I was typing this earlier, but edited it and didn't post it. I feel like every day I try to be a good man. I am not perfect. I guess I have felt for so long that the most important people in my life didn't appreciate me or love me for that man that it obviously wasn't enough. W hasn't made me feel really loved in a long time. And I'm sure she would say the same about me.

I have always felt like I had a stable, wonderful upbringing. W had a very tumultuous childhood. It makes sense that she has scars and imperfections. I shouldn't have them. I never wanted for anything. My parents were factory workers that made sure I had anything I needed. I worked as soon as was legal to help, but I never went without. I appreciate now how much they gave up for me. In the end, there was nothing between them but me. I shouldn't have scars. I should be happy and well adjusted. W's scars and imperfections are warranted. I have compassion for her. I have always loved her ability to persevere. I've said to her multiple times since BD that she's not a quitter and I don't expect her to quit now.

W told me she fell in love with me and continued to love me because is accepted her and her family as is. Why can't I do the same for myself?

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Going to jump in here for just a moment, you got alot of really good posters don't want to mix the messages.

You're a little younger than me. You ever listen to a band called Social Distortion?
"I Was Wrong?"

lyrics:
"...but how you can love someone one if you don't love yourself?"

Perfect is out of the question man.

Trying, that is the goal. Every day. Try. Strive.

I guess I have felt for so long that the most important people in my life didn't appreciate me or love me for that man that it obviously wasn't enough.

Your words...and it is a telling statement: people. Not person, not just your wife. People plural. Who else?

I think that is part of your problem. feeling unappreciated, taken for granted. How could that not affect you?

When I felt taken advantage of, I would tell my friends, as an example:

"Look if all you needed as a ride, that's cool, I'll be your chauffeur today, but don't call me after this. Now if you wanted to hang out that is also cool but part of the day is mine as well."

You do and should stand up for yourself...not with your wife if she in is MLC...not right now. But with other people, hell yeah.

The guy your wife fell in love with...pretty sure he was more of a stand up for himself and others type of guy...I could be entirely wrong, might be right though. : )

[Jack_Three_Beans]

let me correct something here:

The guy your wife fell in love with...pretty sure he was more of a stand up for himself and others type of guy...I could be entirely wrong, might be right though. : )

You the guy she fell in love with old you. Just in case that was read wrong.

[Wonka]

W's scars and imperfections are warranted.

JF, this has me screeching "whhhaaat?! did he just say this?" Are you kidding me? What I'm hearing is that W's childhood chit is warranted as if THEY WERE EXPECTED TO HAPPEN and you're patting her head in a superior way. Pray and tell...just how exactly is that "warranted"??

I'd revisit this and dig deep, dude.

[Wonka]

Let me elaborate a bit on what I said above.

It makes sense that W's scars and imperfections are warranted.

Who are you to determine this? What makes you say that "it makes sense that W's imperfections is warranted?" There are plenty of people who have gone through some really horrendous chit and came out stronger and (I daresay) relatively "normal" from these experiences that they did not ask for at all.

I only have to give you two examples to illustrate my point.

Jaycee Dugard
Dave Pelzer