Sinking into a dark place

[LBH_LC]

I joined this forum for ideas, support and ways I can improve

So why are you ignoring the forum's advice? There is not a single person here who will say MC is a good idea at this point, but I know you can find quite a few who tried MC in similar circumstances you are in and found it only helped the WAS right out the door.

If you want help, you need to read the DB books. At the very least read DR. I've seen it work for a lot of people here.

[MrBond]

"you sure come across not as MrBond but MrKnowitAll"

Thanks for the compliment but that is certainly far from the truth. Dealing with intensely troubled marriages for over 5 years you'll see that there are similarities in all of them that you will be amazed at.

"I've been married for over 20 years. I've seen first hand dozens of times where counseling has worked."

But you see, the timing of the C and the individual situations are critical to whether or not C will work. Go back and REALLY read and understand what I wrote. I DID NOT say that C wouldn't work, I said that it works mostly in the times when the WAS is the one who initiates it.

You seem to be only reading what you want to read and getting upset by it.

"Do they always, of course not, but that's better than doing nothing."

TO YOU. YOU think it's better. Your W doesn't think so right now and it's her opinion that matters right now. The question is how can you change that opinion.

"Taking the initiative is NOT controlling,"

It is controlling when you've made it become an expectation of yours. Whenever you WANT someone to do something, that's control. They are going to have to WANT to do it of their own free will.

"it's following through on a commitment BOTH of us made to each other in order for us to move forward in our marriage. NOT doing it would only result in another failed commitment we made to each other and would cause more friction."

Weren't you the one that said that she didn't really want to work on anything and was just fine the way things were? If you are the only one that is pushing for all this change, then you are trying to control the situation.

"It would be controlling if I just did it without her request or without her being a part of the discussion, but she said she wants to see one as well so relax."

That's not entirely the way you phrased it above. And hey it's not M. You are free to do what you wish as much as your W does. Based on what we've seen on here though, your W may react negatively to it or tell the C that it is YOUR issue and she doesn't have a problem. Which I feel is something you won't like very much.

"Also, you put a LOT of stock in DB and DR and say I'm wrong about this being a combined relationship."

No that's not what I said. You're twisting words around. I said that it takes one person to change the dynamic of a relationship. Sure it takes two to keep and sustain the M, but all it takes is one to get those wheels moving in the right direction.

"Are you kidding me?"

No.

"That doesn't even make sense!"

It does if you actually read what we are posting to you rather than getting angry at us. It's your M at stake we are trying to help save.

And by the way, we are only on here to help you. We don't get paid, we've all been hurt by our spouses, etc. It's your choice to pick and choose what you want to believe, but don't crap on the people going through the same thing you are going through just because they want to share with you what they've learned.

"Makes me NOT want to read the books if that's the stance they take."

If you don't do something different, nothing will change. You don't have to read the books and if you want to continue to follow the path you've been on so far, you can see how that has gotten you.

"NATURALLY if ONE person changes the other reacts to that change which is also change. Duh! If things were going well, then NO ONE would need to change anything."

Very mature. You're the one who feels "beaten" by your W's attitude. Taking it out on us here won't help.

"I realize that I don't have it all together. I need to change, I need to do some things different which is why I joined this forum and am seeing a counselor. A by-product of me changing in our relationship will cause her to change as well and vice versa. I don't understand why that's hard to comprehend."

Um that's what we told you. You were the one who said that you kept backsliding on those changes. We weren't the ones who said you were "disgusting". You did.

"I joined this forum for ideas, support and ways I can improve. I felt myself sinking into a place of giving up and not fighting anymore. I didn't join this forum because I read the end all to be all DR or DB books. I'm sure they are great, but let's not put all our hope in these books.

No one puts all their hopes on the books. However, the basic concepts about change and what made your M get to the place it is now is universal .

"I believe it takes all kinds of tools (forum, counselor, friends, prayer, books, etc.) to improve your life in any area...not just marriage."

Of course it does. But you're trying to affect an outcome you can't control. Release that control, change focus and your M will change.

Go back and carefully read and truly understand what others are telling you. We have ALL been in the same position you have which gives us a leg up on counselors who only know about relationships based on theory. We have real life experiences in dealing with spouses like your W.

[PatientMan]

I believe it takes all kinds of tools (forum, counselor, friends, prayer, books, etc.) to improve your life in any area...not just marriage.

In your OP you asked:

"What am I doing wrong?"

Here are some action items:

• Lose the weight and get into great shape. Quit complaining about it and just do it. You will be more attractive and healthier. You will be a better version of you, and this will help with your self-confidence.
• Start getting your back waxed.
• Stop jumping through your wife's endless hoops - they're just distractions that exhibit your beta-male behavior. You need more alpha-male behavior to attract her.
• Give your W some space. This will allow her time to think, it will allow YOU some independence, and it may draw her in according to the distance/pursuit dynamic.
• Read those books!

It does take all kinds of tools...that is correct! But the wrong tool at the wrong time can make things worse for you.

You said you came here for advice and support. You're getting exactly that from people who have been through what you've been through. You don't seem to like the advice and support, though, so you seem to be dismissing it.

You're certainly entitled to do whatever it is you want, but ignoring the advice of people who have already been through your experience doesn't seem very wise.

-PM

[Mimi00]

This forum is on the Divorce Busting website.....so 99% of the people have read the book and the advice will most times be geared towards what is taught in the book. If you haven't read the book then you may not understand why certain things are suggested to you.

Maybe a more neutral forum would be better....where you'll find a bunch of people that will help you continue with your complaintsand cheer on the negativity, instead of lifting a mirror to your face and helping you become a better man.

Most people don't like the mirror.....but I truly believe if more people looked in that mirror from the start, asking what they can do to better their relationship instead of focusing on their partner can/can't do.... marriages would be much better.

Good luck to you in your sitch. I may continue to follow but probably won't comment anymore as you have many others here trying to help. Its funny b/c some threads with people who really want the help to change and find out what they can do better, get no responses...So take advantage of this attention and resources.

[Accuray]

I would add to PatientMan's list to stop treating this as a defect that your wife has. If you view it that way it will become apparent to her and she will resent you for it, and that will lead to NO sex.

Your wife's desire has dropped off and she does not see that as a problem, but you are telling her she needs to seek help.

Like Mr. Bond I've been here a while and that approach to solving your problem has one outcome and it's not a good one.

You need to first ensure she's getting what she needs from you, and when she's in a good place getting her needs met, tell her that you would like her to work with you to improve your sex life for YOUR BENEFIT, not because there is anything wrong with her. Make it about you, not about what she's doing wrong.

I hope that makes sense, it's a subtle shift in perspective.

Acc

[MrBond]

I do want to point out that DBing isn't a strategy or tactic. It just teaches you how to figure out what your spouse's needs are and if what you're doing isn't working, to try something else. There is no set method to how to do something.

So if your W encourages going to C, then go for it. No one said it was bad if she suggested it.

[SM34]

Good God. Do we all sound like that when we arrive here?

I would STRONGLY suggest reading DR before making any C apoointments or any rash decisions. Even if you are sceptical, it can't hurt right?

I turned down C invite by my wife at th very beginning of my sitch. I had heard it was a bad idea and just went with it. I later learned from my wife that she thought it would b helpful for me to move on!

So I think we can imagine how that session would have gone. Thats why everyone is cautionong you. Without a strong commitment from both spouses to work on the M, it will be a venue for you and her to bash each other...and with one foot out the door, someone will move all the way out of the door.

It would be wise to listen to these people. MrBond and Accuray are two of the most knowledgeable and experienced people on the board. You don't know how lucky you are to get so much help from these wise folks...

You don't know what you have until you lose it. Dont lose these people! You stand a much better chance of turning this arround with their help than without.

[AnotherStander]

about 5 years ago she became a health-nut and lost some weight and is not what I would consider "healthy". I was active the first 5-6 years of our marriage but still overweight. Then, primarily being at a desk, I wasn't active which only made it worse.

We don't talk about MMSLP too much around here other than suggesting it now and then, because there's some disagreement on whether it's consistent with DB'ing. But I will say that your sitch more than any I've read here could benefit from the advice in it. One subject is sex rank, when people date and get married they're typically pretty close in sex rank. If one of them suddenly does things to make themselves more attractive (work out, lose weight, different hair style, etc.) then they can move 2 or 3 notches up in sex rank, and if their spouse is really letting things go they can move a few notches down. Now you've got a sitch where the spouse higher in rank is losing interest in their spouse and suddenly attracting the attention of others. Sound familiar?

The book also goes into the hoop-jumping you're doing for your W. Every time you do what she asks to "fix" things you're just making yourself look less desirable. Just read the book, I think you'll feel like it is speaking directly to you.

MrBond and the others are spot on about MC being a bad idea right now. You mentioned being married 20 years and seeing it work many times, sure it works when BOTH spouses are willing to work on things but it NEVER works when one spouse is a WAS. What you need to understand is a WAS situation is different than anything you've been exposed to before. What works in saving a troubled marriage does NOT work with a WAS because the marriage isn't troubled, it is OVER. read DR, you're not trying to save your M, it's already done. You're trying to attract your W back to a NEW relationship and marriage.

[melissag]

I think the OP is gone, so I won't feel too guilty about hijacking his thread - what is MMSLP?

[ccZ28]

"The Married Man Sex Life Primer"

it's a good read