1) I have to be brief (much as that goes against my L nature)
2) of course I'd love to meet up for dinner again
And, finally, my answer to most of your prior questions (which I'll try to get to more specifically) is best illustrated by my quote below:
"I just hate the atmosphere and tension between W and I, and feel sorry that my d15 has to be in this."
Then do something about it. Just when you start to build momentum, you keep stopping.
STOP BEING AFRAID!
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
**** Stop waiting, and gird yourself for the risk you are taking - but take it anyhow. Otherwise you'll be downstairs "waiting" for another 10 years.
Maybe you'll then wait to get an invite to see the grandchildren? THINK out the implications of your INaction.
LL, all this advice has to sink in now, or I'm not sure it ever will.
Please, please hear me.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I hope you won't as long as I did to lean how people say ILY. It is leaning the different ways people are actually showing their love, but the OP may not understand b/c it is not in their way (or same language). When you read the book, it should help you understand what I mean. Funny, but most couples I know do express their love differently from their S. But remember Luke, even if it feels awkward to you, the point is to "learn" to speak (demonstrate) the action that the other person translate as ILY. This is another area where you will need to take the lead with your children. And the wonderful part is nobody ever gets too old to want to be loved and shown love.
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That is a very good question about travel, sandi2, and what I would do to express my love for D without it. I guess I would answer "spend time with her!" (German has a saying that you love that which you have time for). We had a very nice time, for instance, just she and I, a few weeks ago, at a dumpling restaurant, a meal we agreed to keep secret from my W, co-conspirators.
There are many things I would like to touch on in that paragraph, but I for now, I will try to stick to the subject. You can see just by this one short experience that your D does want to spend quality time with Dad. Is she into cooking? If so, the two of you would have that in common and you could really start a closer R built on that activity. She may not be interested in the cooking, but she had fun with you! And did you know that it makes daughters feel very special when Dad takes her out on a fun date without anyone else. Take that one time and bridge it to another and so on. Don't let too much time escape before having another special father-daughter date. But don't make it the same thing each time. You can be spontaneous and do something silly but she would get a kick out of her Dad cutting up with her.
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How else? I used to read to her, but she is older now and it seems out of place (though my W and I read each other Watership Down many years ago, and it was a wonderful experience), plus my W grabbed the reader role a few years ago and I was out.
Does she enjoy reading books, now that she's older? It might be a other subject to link you together. As long as you don't off into boring, deep, or political stuff that most teenager run from. And if she doesn't enjoy reading for herself, you could use that time when you would have been reading to be the time of day or night that is just D & D time (dad & daughter) to share events of the day. Did you use to read to her after she was in bed? I think it would be sweet if you stuck you head in her room for a couple of minutes before she goes to sleep. If you know she had a bad day or something seems to have her down, then you could sit down on the side of bed and look in her eyes when she talks. Be relaxed and just listen. Remember, girls aren't asking to be fixed.......just heard. She wants to know she's valued.
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Daughter likes to hug, but I feel like I hold back (should be hugging my W, d%%n it! along with all the corollaries!) and like it is inappropriate for a dad to hug his soon to be 16 year old for too long. This may sound stupid and I am surely not expressing it well, but hugging her seems inappropriately emotional and connecting and vulnerable for me; I don't want to break down in front of her, or have her feel my pain. So I am not sure what to do when we do.
Luke, don't be afraid to put your arms around her. Hugs from her father are never inappropriate to a daughter, no matter how old she gets. She may be have a woman's body (or not), but she needs your hugs just like always. You know the places your hands don't belong! And if you aren't sure, by all means....please ask us. But I think I know what you are asking. Please don't think we will think you are stupid for wanting to know these things, or for wanting to learn how you start to show her affection. Based on your upbringing and your M the past ten years.....I am just so glad to hear you want your R with daughter to grow.
I would suggest you start with small, light pats on her back. Like, when you praise her for something she's done. Pat her back and tell, "great job" (or whatever expression you would use). When either of you start to leave home and won't see each other for a few days, then I would put at least one arm around her shoulders and give a hug good-bye. If it's too emotional right then, try a side by side body hug instead of face to face.
I think one trick to this is not to allow much time to pass by. One reason you fear the emotional break down or the awkwardness is b/c you have gone so long without loving human touch. You don't want her to experience what you endured. So, whether the two of you are acting silly while you're cooking, or it's something else......use everything as a reason to just gently pat her back or give a hug. Then, when she really needs you to just put your arms around her and hold her b/c she's crying, lonely, hurt, or whatever......you will be free of this "thing" that scares you now.
My daddy was raised in a home that did not show physical affection. My mother was just the opposite. When they got M, she literally had to teach him how to hug his own mother. He wasn't the type of daddy to hold me in his lap and read stories when I was little. He didn't even kiss me on the cheek. But he would hug me! He did listen to me. And, right now as I'm writing this to you Luke, I am crying b/c I miss him terribly! He passed away 26 years ago. I knew I was loved.
One more thing. Don't confuse your daughter with your wife. Your W may not need you, but your D does need you. And the advice we have given you about your R with your W is completely different from the R with your D. I have seen a few statements you've made that caused me to believe you think it applies to your children. They don't want to divorce you! You will always be their father.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
and then implement it. That means DO THESE THINGS^^^^^....
This is not a dress rehearsal LL. Heck, you're already done with the First Act...time to get living your life for real.
I KNOW you can do this.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Dear sandi2, MLC25, Mr. Bond, Wonka, gm23, Brahmin, everyone,
There are good things in all this darkness, and I want to thank you all again. Meeting you all, be it in person or online, and your advice, has been helpful and wonderful, and I appreciate your taking the time. Finding EE, in all its good, strong, wild, real, beauty, being given a chance to do it again (though the way to it is through divorce; like my sister said "look at it as an opportunity"), and the friends I have through it - and giving my d love - all this I am profoundly grateful for.
If you are ever in Sweden...
Last night:
I slept upstairs. W hears me lay down (the door between the rooms was open), comes in and asks "are you sleeping here?", me: "yes", W: "humph". Two minutes later she comes in via the other door, turns on the light and says "you are getting out of my life, I can't stand living with you, it is hideous, your passive resistance, we are selling this house as soon as possible, etc."
The "passive resistance" part was interesting, and I think points to her wanting real, open, conflict.
I just acknowledged her feelings with "I am sorry you feel that way", and actually felt detached from her words. Que sera, sera.
I then had an odd, only half restful night, in spite of jet lag and sleeping pill. Had I just played a zero sum game? Was sleeping upstairs worth the BD it provoked? (I think so, as it appears the M is over, so why not sleep there?)
Also had a nice little time with d15, who was making a kazoo in jello (Dwight's prank) for school last night. I just hung around the kitchen talking with her during this, very nice.
This morning d15 came into my office, asking small things - I gave her a few quick rubs. She then knocked on the window and waved goodbye when leaving (doctor's appt). Yes, there is a connection there. She even seemed to like my idea that she and I go skiing over sports break here (if she is as hungry for my company as I am for hers, then I am truly blessed).
I am sorry this upset you, sandi. Your dad sounds like a good, loving, man.
***
Maybe eight years ago the (then state-run) pharmacy here had a poster in the window saying how important human touch and sex are (how very Swedish...). I scoffed at this then, little knowing ...
***
New twist - son may be coming home with new girlfriend in April. Maybe I need to invite her along to Italy also? I do very much enjoy just he and I being together.
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
I slept upstairs. W hears me lay down (the door between the rooms was open), comes in and asks "are you sleeping here?", me: "yes", W: "humph". Two minutes later she comes in via the other door, turns on the light and says "you are getting out of my life, I can't stand living with you, it is hideous, your passive resistance, we are selling this house as soon as possible, etc."
Luke, now you're talking!!! Awesome. Keep sleeping in that room. Don't mind W at all. She's a real piece of work. One thing I would have said to W, "This is my house and I can sleep where ever I damn please!"
Your question about the zero sum game had me thinking, oh, luke, when are you ever going to change....
and then you answered it with about the healthiest most self-respecting thing I think I've ever seen you say.
Was it worth the BD it provoked?
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(I think so, as it appears the M is over, so why not sleep there?)
Face her fury. Not facing it never made it go away.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Oh I was not upset, Luke. That was not the reason for my tears. I have treasured memories of the father I adored so much. Talking to you about your R with your D just stirred my emotions a bit. But I told you about him b/c he felt awkward about showing affection. I wish I could tell you much more about him. But I'll tell you a tiny part. He left his home when he was the same age as your D. He joined the military when he was only a 16 yr old boy. They didn't ask for proof of age. He looked older and we were in WWII, so they were taking anyone they could get. He made Sargent at 17 yrs old (but couldn't let the other men know how young he really was. Fighting that war made him grow up....and toughen up real fast. I suppose he had to find a way to deal with all that horror he saw. Later, I think he tried to not get too close to people for a long time. Shutting off feelings, etc.
After the war, my parents were M, and a couple years later I was born. My dad was really strict with me. Maybe a little too much, IDK. But he wasn't the kind to joke around or get down in the floor playing with the kids. I am telling you all of this to hopefully give a little idea of how he could be seen as cold or hard-hearted. As I said last time, my mother, and her family, was a living illustration for him to see how he could be different. And let me tell you.......different he did become! By the time I was 16 or so, he had reinvented himself. By the time he was a grandfather, he had become the kind of man who held his grandchildren in his lap, and got in the floor to play with them! I got to see him grow into that wonderful person!
I hope i didn't bore you with my going on & on about him, but Can you see why I wanted to share this with you? B/c I saw first hand how one person can change when they really try. He may have started fatherhood holding back emotions and feeling awkward about showing affection.......but he overcame it. And when he closed his eyes for the last time.....I was by his side. He was the greatest man I ever knew.
Yes I miss him terribly, but it is sweet tears I have in my eyes......not bitter one. He left me with sweet tears. I want your daughter to be able to say that about you one day.
((hugs))
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Luke, listen to her...carefully. Oh, and sleep in the G-D room you want!
Who said you MUST sell the house? I'd love it if you could tell your w something like:
"Gee, I don't know about selling the house, seeing as I can afford to stay here...where will YOU live, w?"
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
