Yes, "your happiness means very much to me" is better.
When would you bring up the elephant? I don't want to upset d15 unnecessarily.
Agreed that I don't own the divorce, nor was it 100% my wife's fault (and she is a fault finder!), rather, it was the interaction between us. I am only rarely a fault finder/blamer, finding attributing fault and blame vindictive and unconstructive.
Yes, I'd leave the hypothetical lousy M if d15 were not hurt by doing so. I stayed in the M out of fear, out of wanting to avoid conflict, out of loving the house and the situation here, out of a sense of duty (I promised, after all, for better or worse).
I think my d15 finds me weird and not easy to be with sometimes. I imagine w has influenced d15's opinion of me, what with all she says (I got mad at W this morning, btw, after she put down my college
My fear is of being abandoned. I am alone too d&&n much.
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
Yes, "your happiness means very much to me" is better.
When would you bring up the elephant? As Soon As Possible, really. NO REASON TO DELAY if your wife is house hunting now, selling the place, moving your d, etc. When you remain silent, you create a vacuum w/your d, forcing her to mind read, but instead, your wife fills the vacuum.
Do you really believe your w will wait to say anything to your d, again, til you feel what, comfortable? B/C I seriously doubt your d has Not asked. I think your w has told her plenty. The longer you remains silent, the fewer defenses you have.
Waiting/thinking, is too often your choice Luke. But surely you can see that delaying a choice this long, IS a choice. Not deciding IS a decision. Worse, It is an abdication. It's you Turning your life over to chance or your w's moods. For a decade Luke, and I don't know what the m was like before 2004, but I'd say you have spent half your m or more, feeling pretty lonely for a m man with kids...
The adage "he who chases two rabbits, loses both" is a good one.
And I submit to you, that "he who ponders things endlessly, never DOES them..."
I don't want to upset d15 unnecessarily.
Pardon my bluntness, but what you want is not the issue right now, vis a vis your d. Unless your w does a total 180 suddenly, and soon, your divorce is days or weeks away. You are here telling us your teenage d does not know??
Luke, imo, That's hard to believe. But IF it's true, (that your d knows nothing) it's worse in some ways. Soon, she'll know of the 10 years on separate floors, that were not all b/c of a bad back or snoring or whatever lie was told to her...she will know she was deceived, even if she's told it was for her protection; it'll sound like a hollow claim.
BUT IN REALITY your w has probably told her there was no marriage for at least that long. To your w, That lets your w off the hook for hurting you (recently) b/c hey after all, you have known for a decade, (yikes, most of your d's life), that the m was over. To your d, this may mean your d's perceptions were off, her judgement was wrong, her 'take on things' in her world, is so fundamentally flawed that it's not to be trusted...
OTOH IF She knows what is going on, it's all based on what she got from your w. What choice does she have about what to believe, if you remain silent?
As for her being hurt "unnecessarily", you keep forgetting you are in damage control now. You can help lessen your d's pain down the road by putting a little effort into the communications with your d asap now.
Fwiw, she already has been hurt, in ways you are ignoring. What she has seen of the marriage in her life, wasn't painless for her or your son.
You may be ending her pain sooner, down the road, by stopping what sounds like a pretty crazy existence that much sooner.
Agreed that I don't own the divorce, nor was it 100% my wife's fault (and she is a fault finder!), rather, it was the interaction between us. I am only rarely a fault finder/blamer, finding attributing fault and blame vindictive and unconstructive.
Yes, I'd leave the hypothetical lousy M if d15 were not hurt by doing so.
I stayed in the M out of fear, out of wanting to avoid conflict, out of loving the house and the situation here, out of a sense of duty (I promised, after all, for better or worse). Some^^^ of these reasons are not as healthy as others. Luke, many of those "Causes" are not working well for you. They are not serving you well. YOU need to discard the reasons you had, that sabotage your happiness and intimacy in your life.
I think my d15 finds me weird and not easy to be with sometimes. More than half of girls her age feel that their dads are "weird", or they act as if they do.
As for not being easy to be with, please describe what you think YOU are like at those times, or what she SAYS, OR does in her reaction to whatever you are doing. Elaborate with as many specifics as possible
I imagine w has influenced d15's opinion of me, "imagine"? You know it. And it's not just your wife's words, but your behaviors (good and bad) and lack of words, that has influenced her opinion of you, and your interactions with her we hope. what with all she says (I got mad at W this morning, btw, after she put down my college what was your reaction to her comment? Silence? If so, what do you think it looked like, to your d?
My fear is of being abandoned. I am alone too d&&n much.
Luke
yes you have been alone for too long. Are you going to change that, or think about changing it? (This being alone so much, this part has nothing to do with your w, except that it ate at you and may have made you too needy for contact hen they came home, but heck, IDK.
I just know that the TIME you take to ACT is moving at a glacial pace. So I can't tell what is realistic to say to you.
Ask your EE therapist. He seems solution based to me.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
MLC - we are not moving now or in the immediate future. W is not, I believe, looking for a place to live yet. D is not immediately coming, I believe, due to house renovation delay. Hence my feeling that it is not necessary or good to tell d15 anything just now.
Re mad, no, when W said "your thesis doesn't interest anyone", I said thanks, sarcastically, immediately after her POV.
Hard to be with? D said a year or two ago "you have to ask me questions, Dad", so I do that now. Sometimes the silences just feel too long, awkward. I used to be more MITish, my closest work colleague would say space shot, in my head. Oh, I don't feel like I have a firm fashion sense either, got enough grief on that front from W.
I do change being alone when I am in the States, with meetup making it easy (I go to three different groups). Here it is harder, but I just emailed a friend some music pieces asking if we should get together for a jam again. This same friend apparently has marriage problems of his own - I think he could be a good person to talk to, and is generally someone I admire (except he seems to be cheating on his W).
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
"I am only rarely a fault finder/blamer, finding attributing fault and blame vindictive and unconstructive."
That's why NOTHING in your situation has changed. You don't do anything constructive about it. Instead, just let things lie where they are.
"Yes, I'd leave the hypothetical lousy M if d15 were not hurt by doing so. I stayed in the M out of fear, out of wanting to avoid conflict, out of loving the house and the situation here, out of a sense of duty (I promised, after all, for better or worse)."
BS. You stayed because you loved your W. Period. Stop blameshifting your reason for staying in the M all on her.
"I think my d15 finds me weird and not easy to be with sometimes. I imagine w has influenced d15's opinion of me, what with all she says"
Again that's BS. YOU are the one who influenced her decision of you. You said yourself that you don't know how to interact with her and your son. AND you've opted to live downstairs like a hermit for years. That's all YOUR choice. Not your W's.
"(I got mad at W this morning, btw, after she put down my college "
And so what did you TELL her? "Hence my feeling that it is not necessary or good to tell d15 anything just now."
And does your W know about this?
"Re mad, no, when W said "your thesis doesn't interest anyone", I said thanks, sarcastically, immediately after her POV."
Sarcasm isn't standing up for yourself. It's passive aggressive behavior.
"Hard to be with? D said a year or two ago "you have to ask me questions, Dad", so I do that now."
But the issue is that your D had to tell you that. It wasn't something that you just knew how to do.
You know you may find what I say to be "insulting" but have you ever considered EVEN ONCE, just trying what I suggest? Have you ever thought that the reason you've been on the track for divorce is because you HAVEN'T done what people have suggested to you? You do the same thing for years and what you want to do and nothing changes. And now you're blaming your W without looking inward.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Conquer your fear, Luke. Slay your dragon. Everything else will begin to fall into place after that.
Take care of your present. Take care of your RIGHT NOW. You can do it.
-PM
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
Mr. Bond - I disagree. You asked me to give people a chance, and I have been doing so. More recently, you pushed me to DO something, and so I went and talked to my W. Others have suggested counseling, and I have gone. I read that GAL is important, and I've been doing so. I've read the books you and others have recommended.
Enough.
Also, I found my sarcastic thanks a good, appropriate, response, and felt better for having said it.
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
I do stand up comedy and sarcasm CAN be witty and CAN make a point with a funny comparison, or a diffusing comment.
It can also show contempt, or disapproval of someone. It CAN also escalate.
It can also be used/misused, as a passive aggressive tool, instead of clearly communicating an opinion and owning it.
One misuse is when someone makes a sarcastic remark that bites, and then says they were "only joking" when confronted. You did not do that in your interaction with your w and maybe your point WAS made.
Another remark that might have yielded more obvious results, would have been to say "Gee w, another KIND remark from you" OR "Oh w, so you now represent the world's opinion of my dissertation. Is it that well known now? I feel special."
But a more direct approach would have been a better model for your d to see and for you to DO. Such as you facing her and saying "stop making cutting remarks. It sets a terrible example to our children & I don't deserve nasty remarks from you" which is actually the biggest problem with it.
She models an abusive relationship in which the male is constantly undermined, mocked, ignored and rejected. Your d has witnessed this ALL her life (she won't recall how you acted before your w annexed the master bedroom 10 years ago). So all she has ever seen of your marriage, is this type of interaction between you and your w.
That's why I don't think your d will suffer much more for a divorce than she has and will continue to be, hurt by the marriage as it has been all her life.
Luke, to be clear, You really don't believe your d knows that you and your w are not going to remain married? What has your d ever said about your marriage? And your son? If nothing has ever been said to you, that's odd. My kids (all 3) have made numerous unsolicited comments over the years, and I've asked for their thoughts at times. We talk about it.
Have you tried that?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Neither child has said anything about our M. I've not asked them either.
I thought the thesis thing was okay - I felt like I made my point, without things escalating, and we actually ended up talking about how what I do now is not at all related to what I did for my thesis (d15 was there, so maybe this was useful for her to hear).
Yes, I could ask about what d15 things about our M. Do you think this would help things?
I gave d15 another backrub earlier and watched a few episodes of the Office with her, she with her head on my shoulder, wonderful. She made a nice dinner and will make breakfast tomorrow (the women seem to want to keep me out of the kitchen this week, W probably because she wants nothing from me).
I like PM's advice to do the right thing now - the thinking or feeling what that is keeps me on track. I think the next thing is to ask them to properly latch the windows - we need to stop the drafts in this old house, and they have an annoying habit of only half latching them (and yes, I know this is a completely reasonable request that I have the right to make).
Thanks,
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
Oh, I also asked d15 if she wanted to go for a walk this afternoon, but she first asked me to wait a while, and then declined after the wait. I was sad and ps$$ed off for a while, and went anyway, but then she later came down to do Pilates in the room next to mine (we could keep each other company) and then to watch the Office.
Bond - agreed on the thesis thing. Direct is clean is better. I will try to be more direct next time.
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
