Unlearning conflict avoidance - 10

[LuckyLuke]

Wonka - I guess I am okay looking, and was just finishing a degree at a good university. It sounds like W thought she saw potential in me, and could make the shy engineer into an alpha male.

Luke

[LuckyLuke]

MLC - I have asked whether I could help prepare food, with W irritatedly saying, no, she would prepare the meal, and d15 saying no thanks. I then set the table and hung out for a bit (with d15).

W did not call me to breakfast this morning (I lazed around in bed), which I found irritating and unusual (we usually have a family breakfast on the weekends). W asked what I thought of dance teacher and his wife coming for dinner tonight, which I think is fine; I think I'll ask W to call me to family breakfast, please, at least on the weekend.

I have a couple of friends here, notably the French guys that I play music with. I don't go to meetups though, as perhaps it could be construed as looking for a new woman, and my W would start looking for a new guy. Have gone 6 times to yoga though, and met a few new people. I am generally more social in the US than here, via meetup (drumming, French, a political and cultural group).

I feel like I am coming from a position of weakness when I say to W that she should not monopolize d15. Is there a way to frame this positively?

Luke

[MrBond]

There is so much passive aggressiveness in your post. And alot of mindreading about your W. Saying that she was "irritatedly saying" doesn't mean anything. You don't know if it's because of you or if there was something else on her mind. Did you ever think about asking her if she's okay, rather than just assuming it's about you?

Why should she have to call you to family breakfast? You're trying to control her. If you want to do something about it, then you cook something and offer it to everyone. If she doesn't want to participate, it's her choice. You just shrug it off and say "well you don't know what you're missing." and then end it with no expectations.

"I don't go to meetups though, as perhaps it could be construed as looking for a new woman, and my W would start looking for a new guy."

First of all, you don't know what she would think. Second, who cares what she thinks. And third, you're not doing anything to salvage your current M, so why do you care if she finds a new guy?

"Have gone 6 times to yoga though, and met a few new people. I am generally more social in the US than here, via meetup (drumming, French, a political and cultural group)."

You do know that those attending yoga have a higher chance of an affair than just a meetup. Just as a thought, you could always ASK your W if she wanted to go with you.

What other activity can you do with your D besides walking and seeing a movie? How about just something as simple as going out for ice cream? Or getting it for your family?

Do something different.

[LuckyLuke]

Hi Bond,

d15 didn't want to go for a walk again (yes, it wasn't something new), and didn't want to get ice cream either, but then offered to play a game of chess when I got back from the walk. We slaughtered each other. I'll work on finding other different ideas.

W made a late spanakopita lunch, and everyone was called to it, so okay, maybe the breakfast thing was because I was in bed. I'll start cooking again tomorrow, when d15/W are back at school - d15 has requested something with beets.

Have invited d15 to go to yoga, and also said a few days ago that I felt like we hadn't been together much this vacation.

Le Weekend was a good smart film, vaguely hopeful at the end.

I am done heat gunning door paint/gunk off and have taken radiator bolts out of wall, so W can paint in the cellar.

Am playing with idea of taking a vacation alone, as no one seems interested in traveling just now.

LL

[25yearsmlc]

Luke

You have been here 10 years.

(WONKA, I sometimes lose sight of that^^ fact but Luke, it says so very much....)

The changes you say you are making, seem fine. But to my eyes, none of them are related to how you and your w interact.

So now, after 10 years of your w doing exactly what she said she'd do (stay until d is 16, then div)

I THINK my time is best spent helping you work on your r with d, and maybe your GAL, correct?

So, why aren't you trying anything I suggest with your d?

You didn't even try the "I want more time with our/my d". (That's not a negative statement and it's not coming from a place of weakness...Asking permission would be weak. Stating your wants is not.

If you teach your d that time with you means outdoor walks or ice cream, you may not be seeing much of her soon.

What are your talks about & how deep do they go, when you do interact with her?

Do you think you associate Sweden with No GAL or "Cold feelings" and that's why you don't reach out more there?

And I echo Bond's comments about the meet up. For you to worry that your w might think you were seeking female company

(but not the months you travel abroad????) is just so silly. I don't think you even believe that! Oh and plus, WHO CARES???

For some reason, you lack... social confidence over there.

you puzzle me.

You are certainly above average looking Luke, and for guys over 50, you're in very good shape (which is increasingly important at our age and increasingly rare)

and you have a lot going for you. You have to get out or your own way.

Stop holding yourself back.

[LuckyLuke]

MLC - I feel like d15 is choosing - herself - to be more with W. For instance, after the chess game yesterday, I asked if she wanted to watch "Russian Ark", but she said no thanks. It should also be said that d15 likes to be in her room, upstairs, which connects with the master bedroom with an open door. The women see and spend much time together (my W once described their R to her BF as very tight, saying she is d15's best friend; d15 is not a rebellious teenager, instead still likes to seek and get W's approval). When I came down to breakfast yesterday, the women had occupied the kitchen table, one on each side, W preparing for work, and d15 practicing French. I ate breakfast alone in my room.

I guess I am trying to say that W is not taking as much as d15 is choosing, and I am unfortunately the loser in it. Sure, I can ask W to push d15 more towards me, but d15 can of course say no. For instance, W encouraged d15 to spend the day skiing with me on Saturday, but d15 didn't want to, so I went to the movie myself.

Yes, r with d15 is very important to me, even though it seems to consist mostly of me missing her now. I don't see what to do but invite her to do different things. I've been trying to be easy and not put any pressure on - no expectations - but do find it tempting to reject the rejector, as sinful as that is in this context.

I just shared some old pictures and movies with the kids via the cloud, and texted daughter to wish her good luck on a French test today, plus to tell her that dinner is beet/caramelized onion tart.

When you say deep, I am not sure in which direction this should go. My past? My feelings (anger/sadness/love/frustration - not a pretty picture)? I do ask her about things, a la Dale Carnegie.

Sweden certainly has fewer opportunities to GAL and I feel constrained here. One big thing is working alone all day, at home, whereas I have my own (nice) office in the States, and am with others. I like the people I work with in the States and they seem to like me... my week-long Hungarian visitor told me that he like working with me a lot, which was very nice to hear.

I talked with a French friend here a bit yesterday; we'll hopefully play music together this coming weekend - his W liked the yoga I took her to last week. Also ran into an acquaintance on my walk yesterday and talked mtn bikes. I am debating whether to spill the beans to French friend.

As for seeking female company - I sleep at MIL's house when in the US - she would wonder where I was if I was gone for a night. And MIL is very kind to me, but my W does not much like or respect her, and keeps little contact.

I really do feel like d15 just prefers W, and consoled myself with hateful thoughts re W on my walk yesterday. d15 is free to choose, by law, who she wants to be with when she turns 16 (this week), and I imagine W will not feel bad if that happens to be with W.

Okay - meetup here I come over here. I generally find these easy to go to - and to talk to people there - but hit a point where revealing more about me is confusing. Facts and stories are okay to recount, but how about feelings and all the real stuff?

Apropos looks - wait till you see the Civil War style beard that I have now - the girls hate it!

Luke

[MrBond]

"I asked if she wanted to watch "Russian Ark", but she said no thanks."

Is there any way you could ask her to see something 'fun' for a change? Alot of your movie choices are more on the adult and serious side. Have you ever thought of just taking her to a comedy or a cartoon or something that isn't so heavy in subject matter? I mean watching a film about Russian ghosts that reads more as a history lesson isn't exactly a 15 year old's idea of fun. Even the chess match, I mean, how about playing something less "stuffy"? This is for her, not for you.

When she was young, didn't you ever take her to see a Disney film or something you just don't have to think about? That's what fun is.

"I really do feel like d15 just prefers W, and consoled myself with hateful thoughts re W on my walk yesterday. "

Why do you need to have 'hateful' thoughts of your W? I mean you haven't done much to improve your situation. You still don't stand up to her and take charge of things and right now your resentment is coming up as passive aggressive actions. These are of your own doing and not your W's.

[sandi2]

Will you please stop placing your daughter in the same picture as your wife? You see "the women" as though they are a team and you are "the loser". Stop this pitiful victim role. It is so unattractive! Who wants to be around an adult who acts like a wounded animal who runs and hides in his den?

We told you some time ago that you were reacting the same toward your daughter as your wife. You are even worse now. You are holding onto resentments against your child just b/c she turned down an invitation.........and referring to her as "the rejector"?

Instead of actually doing some of things we have suggested trying to improve the R with your D, you had rather try to convince us that this is all her CHOICE? Well you just run back into your cave and lick your wounds, but remember, this is your choice......not hers.

Why would she not spend more time with the parent who actually tried to make a live connection with her? How many minutes per day did you say you spent with her? And how many of those suggestions we offered did you try?

Nobody suggested that you get your W to PUSH your D towards you! We did, however, tell you that YOU had to actually DO something. If you expect your daughter to be the leader in this R with you, then you will stay in your cave licking your victim wounds. She is not the adult. She is not the parent!

You have not taken responsibility for something as important as your R with your daughter. It is easier for you to group her as being like her mother......preferring her mother.....and how it's her choice. It hasn't been a choice for her, Luke! What have you given her of yourself? Oh yes, you can pay for nice trips......but what part of you does she have? Relationships are about giving yourself to that other person.

When you say deep, I am not sure in which direction this should go. My past? My feelings (anger/sadness/love/frustration - not a pretty picture)? I do ask her about things, a la Dale Carnegie.

Well IDK, Luke, how many directions are in the depth of something? You are the one with the degree in engineering. But I would say to not make it complicated.
How about you not make it about you (however, at some point you could think about sharing some of your feelings). Remember me telling you how teenage girls are all about feelings? You might actually make contact with her, expressing your feelings about things that matter to you....like her. Remember me suggesting how you could stop by her room every night and make it all about what kind of day she had? She wouldn't say a lot at first, since you've never done it, but if you just did SOMETHING to show the girl she mattered more to you than anything else in life....THAT would fan the ashes of this father-daughter R.

Have you ever considered how she must already feel rejected by her father? You wouldn't fight for your M, will you not fight for your daughter either?

[25yearsmlc]

what they said^^^.. Please Luke, read those posts again.

Most of what I want to say is a rehash of their words so I don't want to do that. It's just beating a dead horse.

A few remnants...for breakfast, I'd have asked one of them to move over...no way would I have eaten alone in my room...OMG...I can't even imagine doing that in these circumstances. If it was rude of them, call your wife on it (never include your d in that. Lumping them together is toooooo simple for you. It absolves you of responsibility. Not cool).

Disclosure builds intimacy. You do not disclose to her, so she doesn't know you.

When you told her about the beet tart, I believe it was your act of service love language. But without anything added to the text other than "dinner is x", how would she know?

It's a small thing but if it had been done the past TEN years, who knows what it might have been for her? I mean, Why not say "I heard that you wanted something with beets in it! So I made X, just for YOU..."

The good news is that a child will PROBABLY always want some form of r with their parent.

Essentially what I think your d sees, is a man who is only comfortable in a teaching mode, vis a vis her.

Think for a minute about that^^. You do choose teaching type activities and OR very very passive ones.
Nothing that requires YOU to share of yourself. Do you see that?? Isn't it telling? It's as if you want a risk free activity with your own child...


You said you "shared some photos with" on iCloud. Shared with?

Sweetie, putting something in dropbox or on iCloud for them to look at on their computers, maybe while they are in their rooms all alone, is NOT "SHARING". Sitting next to them, or at least skyping, and talking to them about the photos, THAT would be sharing...

And you cannot meaningfully connect with your d by merely watching something, (even "The Office", which is hilarious) if you don't also share emotions or something of yourself.

I'm at a loss as to what to tell you at this point b/c you are not DOING what we are suggesting, and I don't believe you disagree with us.

You just RESIST. Is it fear or inertia or something so foreign or what? It's a block of some form. I do not understand it.

ALSO I still do not understand your comments about meet ups over there (though I recall that since you live with your MIL while here, your w probably would not suspect anything going on while here).

However, I don't believe your wife would 1) think of OW at those, 2) notice where you were going anyhow 3) care OR believe you were getting female attention at those meet ups in Sweden.

Really, I don't think she believes you can.

The idea that she'd take interest in what you were doing on a given day, AND THEN care about it, (which she has not done the past decade as far as I can tell) AND then she'd assume it meant OW (biggest leap of all) and then that would CAUSE her to find OM, is such a far reaching series of leaps, I feel like a mosquito at a nudist colony (I don't know where to begin...)

In sum, It's not realistic to me at all.

Nor do I think she's restrained herself from meeting other men either. I'm not saying "OMG there's an OM!!"

She's done whatever she wanted to do inside the m, and out. I mean, no offense, but why wouldn't she? What consequences would there have been for her? Your w has done and gotten exactly what she said she'd do and get. Can you tell us when your w has Not done what she wanted?

The reason your w is in the master bedroom & physically closer to your d, is because You left the master bedroom. You left, remember? That's what your d knows...b/c that's what your children saw.

And With no explanation from YOU, ever, they'd have to assume you chose that. And you did choose that. Yes Luke, you chose to leave the master bedroom. No one forced you out.

Though others have said it, it bears repeating b/c it's so important that it cannot be over emphasized....

It's this: You lumping your d in with your wife is wrong and, I'm sorry to say, pretty cowardly. Ten years here. Your d has only seen a shadow of you b/c you have refused to risk her seeing the real you. OTOH your w has probably shared herself, her fears and her joys and her dreams and her resentments....with your d. And from you, your d has gotten "ILY" and silence...and "lets' watch something or play a game that requires less verbal interaction than almost any other "game" around...all cerebral. Get out of your head.

Why you have not told anyone there, about the situation? I'm not saying you should dump all your problems in someone's lap, just share them! You can tell them if they have a brainiac idea for a solution, you'd like to hear it. At least then, someone over there, might know you...I mean, No wonder you're lonely.

Never sharing, never disclosing, means never having intimate relationships. That's what EE is about. Meaningfully connecting. You know this.

Think about 3 NEW ways to connect with your d, and act on at least one of them, every single day you have left with her.

That's my suggestion. At this point I don't know what you have left to lose.

Let her in.
(((( )))

[LuckyLuke]

Okay. I will tell daughter about EE ("I went to a workshop about how to connect to people because I don't feel good at it"?) and show her the pictures from it. Deeper stuff beyond this would be telling her that I feel lonely and sometimes trapped in my head and depressed, which I really don't think a child needs to know (please correct me if I am wrong). My mom once had a depressive episode and confided in W and myself, which made me feel quite uncomfortable (the needy parent telling the kid intimate, adult secrets).

I don't want to impose on or vampirize my daughter emotionally. That would be being like my mother, which W claims I am (and that is not meant as a compliment).


MLC - I really like your list of things people share (fears and joys...); it gives me an idea of what to share.

Two small good things: 1. I came down to breakfast at 5.30 this morning, when W and d were still eating, so earning a glare from my W, which I ignored. They left soon thereafter, but I ate breakfast at the kitchen table instead of in my room.

2. the band my daughter plays in has a gig in Stockholm tonight, to which W did not invite or tell me about. I told W I am coming by train (she needed the car), so my evening is booked. I will tell her that it was rotten not to tell/invite me.

***

I used to think that marriage was two committed people being good to each other and that that was sufficient to keep it alive. Now it seems you have to watch out for #1 first, and be ready to get off the train. Wonderful.

***

A distant relative of mine called yesterday, asking how we were and why she, a former close friend of my W, and now a brain cancer survivor, no longer heard anything from W. She asked me point blank if we were still together, to which I replied, yes, but it is difficult. I asked her to keep this between us and also why she asked: she said that W had told her maybe 7 years ago that she (W) was thinking of leaving.

I also sent an email to a cousin who had made me really really angry a few years ago, and to whom I had cut off communication, saying hello. He had been my favorite up until then. Like your signature says FORGIVENESS... Life is too short to stay angry.

He unfortunately lives in Germany, so is not so easy to get to, but on the bright side, lives in the same city I sometimes need to work in there, and so hopefully I'll see him next time. He is a guy I would share the real me with.

Finally, I'll take the plunge with my French friend here, and reveal myself. We are slated to play music this weekend.

Luke