Hi loualea, EE is Essential Experience, one of the best things I've ever done. It is on the web. I thought I'd add to this^^ b/c it deserves more detail, if you are interested.
Essential Experience (aka "EE") Is a personal growth workshop conducted over a long weekend. It is now primarily based in Philadelphia, PA.
It's Not to be confused with EST or Landmark, and I've been to both of those. Those were useful to me, but I saw some harshness with a few people at EST, and Landmark spent a lot of time recruiting & that rubbed me the wrong way.
EE Is based on the work of several psychoanalysts and Jungian analysis, along with Virginia Satir and other leading "self actualization" thinkers. David Crump designed it and his protege, Dr. Eric Hoffman now leads the workshop.
Because It's experiential, instead of lectures, or a lot of Q & A, (in which people like me, can "rehearse" or edit my responses), it has exercises which are designed to help you discover things about yourself and how you relate to the world, like nothing else.
So You can't hide from your reaction. Nor do you have to share if you are not ready. But if you don't put yourself out there in EE (Or life) you won't get nearly as much out of it.
The EE workshop clarifies where you are in your life & how to get where you want to go. For me, it was among the most profound experiences of my life.
Several DBers have now gone and all felt it was life changing. Those were the words they used, and it's what I still say about it.
I felt that after attending EE, my life was lived with more intent & clarity. I was and am happier b/c of it, even today, many years later.
EE is not designed for couples, per se. I have seen some go as couples, and I think they were in solid marriages. They loved it and said it got them to a deeper level. There are reasons to do it alone, however. I think having a spouse there can be inhibiting. Maybe you have issues from childhood you don't want to share in front of a spouse, & in my case, I had issues with my mil, and I would not have addressed them in front of h.
I'm a wife/mom, sister/daughter and am a L. Like most women, I have a lot of "roles" I play in life.
EE helped me with every one of those roles. I also think it really helped my career (tax deductible!!) and of course it helped my marriage. I was a happier woman.
My h was not the type of man to attend "touchy feely" things. He saw me off at the airport and wished me well.
But when I came out of the gate at the airport, he said he immediately noticed I was "serene"! He noticed changes in my behavior from that minute & he saw that those changes lasted. I felt an inner contentment I'd never felt before.
He wanted to see what it was all about. So, he chose to go to the next workshop a few months later. (Of course I was thrilled).
I didn't hear from him the first 2 days and I actually started to worry that he was thinking I was a lunatic for so loving it. But he called me late that night and said "I want to thank you for this --its' the best gift anyone has ever given me."
Since then, he and I have returned to assist other participants go thru their own workshop. That experience, together, was amazing.
DO look up their website (and make sure it's the correct one)... it was life changing for me and everyone I know who has attended has said the same. it's extremely worthwhile. For me it was like 2 Years of therapy in one long weekend. So worth it.
Yes, d15 does like to shop (she said so when I asked!) and I am the one with the wallet. W has inculcated d15 with a certain Calvinist do not spend money attitude, while I am easier on that front. So thanks for the idea: I'll give daughter a shopping evening at a nice store in Stockholm (beyond - I am smiling at the irony, MLC - the short history of literature book I already have for her - she really liked Gombrich's History of the World book, so it is not an unfitting gift). Yes, 10 years is a long time - people often talk about a marathon here...
Luke
If the 10 years consisted of you doing the DB program, I'd say "gee, monitor for results and there are none" so I'd say DB failed.
But Luke, yes You have been around here for 10 years...but from my point of view, 9 of those years were not spent Dbing. From my point of view I see you remaining virtually unchanged within your m, for almost a decade. So it's not really "patience" or "perseverance" so much as being stuck.
Your behavior recently changed and by changed, I mean how you are outside of your family.
Thanks to the EE workshop you have changed in other areas of your life.
I see that and I delight in it.
But what do you see as new and different within the family?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Is it too creepy to make the shopping with me? Me buying my way into a few hours with d15 (soon 16)? Typically W and d15 would shop together. Just giving her money or a gift certificate seems impersonal, the last thing I want.
Luke
Her birthday is coming. Why not take her out to pick an "X" that she wants? There's nothing "creepy" about that if it isn't lingerie.
My h has taken our d's clothes and computer shopping lately (due to my leg surgery) and he spends more than I would.... (Which I think they know...)
Anyhow, they all seemed happy when they came home and each did share things with h that they had not shared earlier. It was a positive.
Surely with your d's birthday coming, it makes total sense. Same goes for any electronics that she might need, given your background. 16 is a special birthday in our country ("Sweet 16", etc) so,
NO it's not buying her. It's buying her a gift and celebrating her.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I have a hard time with leader - being or doing so, I mean. In certain contexts, sure, but interpersonal stuff is not my forte, to put it mildly. I just don't know what to do so often, and am typically #2, behind the boss figure.
Luke
I know for a fact we've covered this topic. Stop running from your fears of changing and take action. Do you really want to improve yourself, or are you just here to chat with people about the idea of it?
That question may seem a bit crass, but it is in every way sincere, though explicitly direct for a purpose. Actually think about the TRUE answer to that question. You have received a TON of advice DIRECTLY addressing issues you've asked how to resolve, yet you seem to refuse to take the steps recommended to you. Your threads go back to 2004, and your "Unlearning Conflict Avoidance" threads go back to 2012. Yet it seems like you're still asking the same questions.
Why?
I'm not trying to discourage you from asking questions and seeking help, I'm just wondering what more it's going to take for you to take action in your life. You have all the answers, Luke. Start taking action and living life before it passes you by.
What else do you need?
I know you can do this and I don't even know you personally. All these other people in this thread trying to help you know you can do this too, or they wouldn't be spending the time trying to help you. And the ones that have actually met you in real life corroborate what the rest of think: how AMAZING of a person you are and that you CAN do this!
ACTION!
-PM
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
Before I begin, I know I am new on these boards and have been dealing with my own sitch for about 7-8 months. That being said, once I read through this thread of someone who has been here for 10 YEARS, I had to go back and read up on this sitch.
I normally wouldn't respond to a thread like this, but I just felt compelled after what I saw throughout Luke's history.
Luke, as I read through your history, I continued to see something your wife has been telling you for years; here are some quotes from 2004-2006 time frame:
Originally Posted By: LuckyLuke
She - high energy, a competitive nature, opinionated, temperamental, dominant, a strong person, likes to fight. Has only worked part time for 4 years and resents this; has spent a lot of time fixing up our old the house. Works on occasional contract jobs, at home. I think she needs to be out, with people. She is working on getting a job.
Me – not as high energy, not competitive, not as dominant, a conflict avoider. My work involves travel 25% of the time, often international. I am a good listener, patient. I work at home too, when I am not traveling, so we do spend a lot of time around each other (still). -------------------------------------------------------------------------- She says I am not strong enough for her, and that I never fight back. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- She has had a series of disappointments with me, not being competitive, sometimes unsocial, not as assertive. I don’t want to compete with her in sports (she’ll win) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I asked her yesterday to tell me how I have messed up our marriage, in as much detail as possible. (We’ve been married 20 years, btw).
Her answer: I am not “strong” enough, says I am too easily intimidated, compares me unfavorably with an ambitious CEO friend of ours, says I don’t have street smarts, etc. She says she does all the s..t work (though I cook as much as possible when I am home and try to take the kids so she has free time). An earlier time she said that I never fight back (it is true, I am by nature a conflict avoider). Her plan is to “finish renovating the house, get a job and leave”. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I followed a counselor’s suggestion a while ago and asked her to please tell me how I had screwed things up, hoping that this would flush out the bad feelings. It didn’t; rather she repeated that I was "not strong enough, never fought back and too like my mother", and that finally she ‘didn’t care’. My wife is a dominant, assertive, talkative, sociable, competitive, judgmental, hard working person; I am less in each category.
I think those are enough; there were more and they are continually spread out over a period of years. Some of the same "vets" that are in this thread gave you some advice before on this:
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc - #812795 - 11/30/06 08:14 PM
As an outspoken woman considered to have a strong personality, i chose a H with a strong personality as well. He challenged me and was not threatened by my intelligence. But I didn't choose my kind, gentle other boyfriend altough we rarely fought. Something was missing. I chose H b/c I wanted to feel safe/protected, and like the female of the species....don't tell my feminist friends, please. We've had conflicts galore, and problems, or I wouldn't be here. But we've also had 25 years of a M that has had a lot of passion in it, and is turning around from the edge of the cliff anyhow.
Just saying that when a woman says she wants to feel strength from her H, she MEANS it... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- but Lose the Ghandi approach if she's telling you what she is telling you...And this does NOT mean to be a jerk, as you've also read here.
Luke, even in this thread, other "vets" (MrBond in particular) have been swinging "2x4's" in your direction concerning this issue. I have only been dealing with my sitch for a very short period compared to yours and others so I can only imagine the pain & frustration you have felt over the years. That being said, I am not trying to disrespect you or anyone else on this board, but here comes another 2x4:
The interaction you described in your own, and your wife's words, is the worst form of Male Beta/AFCism I think I have ever seen! Again, not insulting you, but you have allowed this woman to disrespect you and run roughshod over you like a steamroller on hot asphalt for years! I am not saying you have to be some J@ck@$$ Alpha Male jerk, but some of the things she has done and said that you let her get away with you should not have stood for. She has ZERO respect for you and has not had it in years and you allowed this to happen by not standing up for yourself and allowing her to do and say disrespectful things!
You left the marital bedroom? Almost every forum I have read (including this one) it is the WAS that is the one to leave; not the LBS! I had this same issue with my wife; told me she wished I would just leave or go to the spare bedroom. I didn't get mad at all; I simply walked within 2-3 feet of her, looked her dead in the eyes, and in a calm but firm voice stated I wasn't going anywhere. This was my house and my family's house. If someone wasn't happy living here, then that person should leave. I told her I would even help her pack and move her but in no way was I leaving AND my own D10 was staying with me, period! Subject never came up again and she is still at home!
She had an affair, and you let it go on for how long before saying anything? Months? A year? I know this has been a big debate on this forum in the past (Whether or not to confront? whether or not to expose publicly? Is it shaming the WAS or not?) Not going down that path, and each person makes their own choice, but a boundary would have been appropriate. You "found" a note to you with a note to the OM with it / on the reverse side. That was obviously planted and the biggest female "sh!t test" ever. She wanted you to find that and probably confront her with it! My opinion, enough said!
Bottom line, this woman has wanted you to stand up and be a challenge for years! She wanted you to be more assertive, stronger, etc! In fact, in one of your posts she actually told you "she wants a stronger me"(post# 812699). You stated in your past threads that you were doing the LRT 180, yet, you still kept doing things for her. In my version of DB/DR, LRT doesn't include continuing to do all those things; especially once she has declared D is imminent and she wants an open relationship!
The worst part of all this; your R with D15 is suffering. She has not only watched your wife disrespect you most of her life, but also watched you cow out and let her do it! Both of you are setting a cr@p example to her about how an R/M works. Of course she is attached to your W more; not sure every little reason, but I guarantee part of it is because your wife is the dominate alpha and rules the roost while you let her do it! I agree with some of the other posters in the thread; get creative and give her (D15) some options. Or, plan a surprise outing with D15 and wake her up that morning, tell her to get dressed and let's go! Don't take no for an answer! Good stuff to do with a 15 y/o: Shopping, concerts (her music not yours), amusement park, etc. What are her interests? Ask her? Capitalize on that info! I took my son and his friend to see an alternative band. Not my kind of music, but hey, we had a great time and it was just us guys! He drums; I play guitar; we jam together just for fun! I do the same stuff with D10. I even bought her first curling irons AND taught her how to use them (thanks youtube)! I do all the "girlie stuff" she wants AND teach her how to hunt/archery, play guitar, etc!!!
Whether or not your marriage can be saved, or if you even want it now, remains to be seen. BUT, it isn't going to happen while you continue to let your wife walk all over you! Instead of getting pissed off and running to your cave (as someone put it) immediately address the disrespectful behavior when it happens; especially if it happens in front of D15!!! And I personally wouldn't do it from across the room either; close the distance to just out of her personal space (arms length), look her dead in the eyes and firmly but calmly state the offense and you will no longer tolerate it, period! If she disrespects you in front of D15, then defend yourself in front of D15! Otherwise, make it clear to wife that disagreements are NEVER in front of kids and she will NEVER disrespect you in front of them! Keep the kids out of it!
It's one thing to show compassion, love and understanding and taking responsibility for those that we have hurt or are hurting. It's another to just allow someone to basically abuse and disrespect you!
For those here that may disagree with anything I said or found it offensive, my apologies!
Azagtoth
Me: 44 X WAW/MLC: 42 Kids: S21, D11 BD: July 2013 (ILYBNILWY) EAx2: Busted 1 OCT 2013; 25 Mar 2014 Status: Divorcing & Done! Waiting to be final (Nov 2014?) & glad it's finally over!
Ways to connect to daughter, all activities done together, so verbs:
o cook o garden o bike o hike o ask what she would like to do, using MLC's father/daughter quality time phrasing o talk to S20 together o sports or work out o play a game o we read each other a book o take her shopping o eat at a restaurant o go to a museum or cultural event o play music o talk French
More?
Luke
I don't have daughters quite your age yet (12 is the oldest), but why don't you just try talking to her first?
-Just tell how much you love her, and how she's growing up so fast that you can't believe it.
-Let her know that you're there for her no matter what, whether she wants to talk, or go do something...anything, or get away, or just hang out.
-Tell her how proud of her you are, tell her specifically what things about her impress you. Remind her all the time...be her ego booster.
-Tell her that with how fast she's growing up it's only going to feel like a blink of an eye before she's off on her own, and you want to spend time with her while you have the opportunity.
-Tell her you're going to bug her about it too, because that's what dads do.
-Remind her that she's your princess, no matter how old she gets, and treat her like one too.
Open up the dialogue...the lines of communication. Then the actual events that you spend time together doing won't feel forced.
I like all of your ideas, you just need the communication part to go along with it. That's the part that solidifies the relationship, and it's a relationship with your daughter that you want. That's what will stand the test of time.
-PM
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
Action: d15 played with her band in Stockholm last night. W had taken car (she asked, politely), so I took the train and walked to the venue, a lovely evening in the old town.
My text to d15 this morning (I had also complimented her last night): Hi d15 - you looked and sounded great last night - I was so proud of and happy for you. I am so glad I came - walked by the Living History Forum in old town - what a beautiful city Stockholm is! Much love, your Pa.
Action: write a poem for d15 birthday today, a "container" for the shopping trip gift. (I once wrote a whole book of poems for a woman I was in love with).
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
10 years is a long time. I propose, given all the advice I've received, to now post action or progress reports on my part, similar to the above. Part of this will probably have a running list of actions to take. Perhaps some analysis or further advice may be useful from time to time, but let's focus on more walk, less talk. Thx - Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
(Which I think they know...) 