A question, relevant to a couple threads I'm following, including this one:
You and I agree (?) that strategies are different if an OM/OW is involved. But we know cheaters lie. And we also know that snooping HURTS the LBS. All that being said, how can these people know which strategy to use if they CAN'T prove - 100% - that an OW/OM is still in the picture? Should they periodically ask?? What if the WAS lies (shocking, right)?? Should the LBS be periodically snooping, despite that being a "no-no" because it's SO painful if/when something turns up?
Personally, once busted, my H never lied ... in fact, my nose was rubbed in his A. But I think, from reading others' experiences, that is the exception instead of the rule.
So how would folks like Dev ... and mdu ... proceed if their spouses SAY they're not involved in an A (or ignore that question altogether) while their *actions*, at least at times, tend to suggest otherwise?
I'm confused FOR them, so perhaps these are questions to which *I* am interested in answers. But perhaps I'm the only one?
M: 40 H: 44 Married 14 years S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M 2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart Piecing: April 2014
I told my WAW that I could not be friends with her as long as she was in contact with OM. She's not staying at the house, so I have no way to tell if she is/isn't in contact with him unless she would be 100% committed to MR and a transparency plan was in place. However, if I knew she was NOT in contact with him right now, my approach in communicating with her would change (would be more friendly to show my changes). I guess I have to assume she is until it's proven otherwise??
A question, relevant to a couple threads I'm following, including this one:
You and I agree (?) that strategies are different if an OM/OW is involved. But we know cheaters lie. And we also know that snooping HURTS the LBS. All that being said, how can these people know which strategy to use if they CAN'T prove - 100% - that an OW/OM is still in the picture? Should they periodically ask?? What if the WAS lies (shocking, right)?? Should the LBS be periodically snooping, despite that being a "no-no" because it's SO painful if/when something turns up?
Personally, once busted, my H never lied ... in fact, my nose was rubbed in his A. But I think, from reading others' experiences, that is the exception instead of the rule.
So how would folks like Dev ... and mdu ... proceed if their spouses SAY they're not involved in an A (or ignore that question altogether) while their *actions*, at least at times, tend to suggest otherwise?
I'm confused FOR them, so perhaps these are questions to which *I* am interested in answers. But perhaps I'm the only one?
You ask GREAT questions, Train, and you've hit the crux of the matter. For the reasons you state, it's why I personally believe very strongly in having at least enough good intel in place to protect yourself.
I've summarized my own philosophy on "snooping," below, with a note from my personal archives. It should also be noted that even MWD mentions possibly having to use a keylogger in her book, in order to confirm an online affair. To say that DB teaches "no snooping, ever, in any situation" is not accurate.
For the life of me I cannot even IMAGINE getting thru my own sitch using ONLY what my wife was telling me, and what I was directly observing. It would have cost me my marriage, frankly.
Starsky
And that right there is the problem with deciding to gather intel ("snooping"). If you can handle it, if you can detach yourself to such an extent that you are more "hovering above" the marriage than emotionally in the MIDDLE of it . . . almost like a "game-playing" mode . . . then the information you can gather is invaluable.
However, if it's only going to serve to beat you down, and defeat you, then it's probably best not to do it.
In general, I'm only in favor of snooping when:
- you’re initially trying to confirm an affair;
- as a gathering of evidence for a "cause" legal action of adultery, or to help you make a decision about custody;
- to confirm no-contact, as part of a MUTUALLY-AGREED-UPON transparency plan;
- you are concerned about dissipation of marital assets, or a drug, gambling or alcohol addition, or some other behavior that might prove harmful to the family.
“In my case, the Red flag was when my W changed the password on her computer and email accounts. I had an innocent reason to go in there one day (household admin) and found I was locked out. Then I noticed the sudden increase in texts, picked up her phone and read the back texts and .... BAM!
I think in my sitch snooping is the only way I could have proceeded. It was painful, and it caused huge fights between us, and yes, my W accused me of violating her trust by snooping as if that is worse than the EA, but without knowing the truth, without having it exposed to both of us, I don't think I would have been able to see what was going on and detach. I think snooping, spying and exposing the EA stopped it from proceeding further and faster.
I now look at it this way. A cheating spouse wants to be able to have an A, while PREVENTING the betrayed spouse from reacting. If your spouse cheats, they will lie about it in an attempt to control you. Since an A directly impacts your M and directly impacts you, it is your right to know what is going on so that you can make your own decisions and react in the way that you choose.”
On snooping “makes you nuts” – I say just the opposite! :
You know, it's funny, but every time I get into one of our frequent "Snooping is bad!" debates around here (I am very pro-intel, as you all know), one of the arguments that the anti-snooping crowd always give is, basically, "It'll make you nuts!"
I contend just the opposite. Us humans are wired to fear -- to "go nuts" -- over the UNKNOWN, not the KNOWN.
Ronald Reagan said, of the Soviets, "Trust -- but verify." It is in that verification that we can either find STRENGTH AND PEACE OF MIND (if nothing is going on), or KNOWLEDGE AND DISCERNMENT about the right course of action (if something is).
For the life of me, I can't see anything wrong with that.
Pro’s and Con’s of “Snooping”:
1. to verify initially whether or not there is infidelity involved in your sitch, so that you can attack it appropriately.
2. to establish evidence/grounds for a possible divorce action if yours is a "fault" state.
3. to gather evidence for a possible custody battle, and to help you make a determination as to whether or not you SHOULD go for custody (is the cheating spouse engaging in risky behavior that would make them a poor parent in their current state).
4. to determine what it is that OM/OW is providing your spouse, so that you may begin to better provide it. To determine what OM/OW is doing that ticks your spouse off, so that you can avoid those behaviors.
5. as an early warning system for any possible financial or legal threats.
6. to monitor what outside pressures are having an affect on your spouse (her parents, her friends, your adult children, etc.).
7. to determine if the affair has gotten physical (medical risk).
8. to verify no-contact once no-contact and transparency have been agreed to as part of reconciliation.
9. to determine the extent to which you believe OM/OW may be a threat to your spouse and/or your family (ex.: abuse, unstable behavior, etc.).
10. to expose deceitful tactics of the cheating spouse which, if unverified, may lead you to make false assumptions and tactical errors (ex.: cheating spouse says they want to go to MC to try to work on reconciling the marriage, but they confide to a BF that they are only doing it to buy time while they squirrel away marital assets to be used on a divorce).
Those are some "pro's" just off the top of my head.
On the "con" side, all I can come up with is:
1. If you don't control your emotions, you may not be able to handle it.
I'm sorry, this whole "snooping is BAD!" thing, to me, is just one of those mantras that gets mindlessly repeated, until it becomes part of the official catechism, without stopping to consider the real merits of it.
I couldn't agree more. I understand snooping may be hurtful, however it confirms suspicions and (I think) empowers you. Just my thoughts
3 kids BD 12/15/13 (IDKIILY. ) Rope dropped Cirque du Soleil style D final 9-9-14 "Some people are born on 3rd base and go through life thinking they hit a triple." Barry Switzer
I will admit that there are certain personality types that have a real hard time handling it. Even then, I usually recommend (again, if you're either trying to confirm an affair initially, or verify that agreed-upon no-contact is happening, mainly) that a betrayed spouse have a trusted third party that can directly see and hear the raw intel, and just keep you apprised of any potential threats in the form of a summary.
It CAN be addicting, and it CAN keep a betrayed spouse "stuck" from working on their own stuff -- focusing only on their spouse's affair instead of working to clean up their own side of the street, as it were.
But I'd much rather deal with reality -- and proceed accordingly -- then try to go by what someone who is wayward is going to tell me in their current addicted state.
Wow, Train great question and I love all the responses.
From my own personal experience so far, I found intel extremely important and useful for the first 5 months since my BD. I was able to gather all kinds of information which helped when my W initially attempted NC. I knew she maintained NC, and when she was contacted by the OM. Of course when she re-established contact I was aware, and I could tell if I was being lied to. Very important. I was also able to determine the genesis of the A, which is good to have. I have created a large collection of information that I can utilize should I be required to.
It was very helpful, and somewhat therapeutic to have that window for me. However, once I got caught, it created a big problem. So I have regrouped, taken another approach, and again created my window. However the difference is, I don't check it regularly right now.
If and when I get to the point where the OM is not involved, I will require full transparency. Until then, I will periodically check in and see what is happening, as others have noted, I am an information seeker. I'll just be more careful about getting caught
Great topic Train and thanks for the great advice everyone!
This snooping/transparency plan needs its own thread. In my case, the number of devices and apps my H has available to him to conduct an EA is greater than I could ever monitor. I can't conceive of a transparency plan that would cover just the ways he has already used that I know about.
Me42, H40 D12, S8, S7 A revealed: 7/13 Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15
This snooping/transparency plan needs its own thread. In my case, the number of devices and apps my H has available to him to conduct an EA is greater than I could ever monitor. I can't conceive of a transparency plan that would cover just the ways he has already used that I know about.
You'd be surprised. Waywards are notoriously sloppy.
Here's an entry from my personal archives that you all might enjoy that kinda goes to the same subject:
“A Wayward Will Eventually Let Their Guard Down”:
My wife also kept wiping her cellphone -- call log and TMs -- a couple of times every day, and also kept the phone with her (or near her) 24/7, it seemed.
I also noticed, that NOW THAT SHE FELT CONFIDENT THAT SHE HAD IT WITH HER ALL THE TIME, she no longer locked it.
So I began to study her habits/patterns every day. And I noticed that every morning, she woke up before I did, came downstairs, put on her shoes, and went outside to get the paper (we were sleeping in separate rooms at this time, me in the master BR and her upstairs in our daughter's old room).
I also noticed (made a beeline/"dry run" up there one morning when she went out to get the paper) that she kept her phone up there after she woke up, near her "bed" (a sleeping bag on the furniture-less room floor), charging, and UNLOCKED.
I quickly set the phone back down where I had found it, and slipped downstairs back into my bed. But I had my plan.
I went online and got a .pdf of her cellphone instructions, as I knew I wouldn't have much time with it, and would have to use that time quickly and wisely, and couldn't afford to be stumbling around with the buttons (I was totally unfamiliar with her phone). I studied the owners manual until I knew the navigation for call log and especially TEXT MESSAGES, frontwards and back. I waited for my opportunity, making sure to begin CLOSING MY BEDROOM DOOR EVERY NIGHT WHEN I WENT TO BED (I hadn't previously; had left it open a crack).
This I did for a week or two.
One morning, after a night where she had gone to bed early and I KNEW she was text messaging up there in her room, I pretended like I was asleep, and waited for her to go out and get the newspaper. When she did, I bolted up out of bed, left my bedroom, and shut the door the way behind me. I ran upstairs, went into her bedroom, and quietly closed the door behind me. There, next to her sleeping bag, was her cellphone, unlocked.
I spent the next 5 minutes looking at more than I needed to know, or that I wanted to see. Lots of "ILYs" and "no one does it for me like you do's" (this after she claimed the affair was over, and they were "just friends" again). Made sure to check both a few Sent Items and a few INbox, to make sure this wasn't a one-sided affair.
It wasn't.
I laid the phone back down, and came out of her bedroom and into our upstairs game room, and just went on the family computer for about 10-15 minutes. She was now downstairs, reading the newspaper at the kitchen table, just as she always did.
After awhile, I came down the stairs, and gave her a cheery "G'morning!"
She looked like she had seen a ghost, and the poor girl probably wet herself.
"W-w-what are you doing up?" she stammered.
"Oh, I couldn't sleep -- just went on the computer for a little bit," I answered.
"What's wrong with your laptop?" she asked, worried. (I rarely used the family computer upstairs)
"Oh, nothing," I purposely said briefly. "I"m gonna get in the shower; you need anything out of there?"
"No," she said, obviously worried sh*tless.
I knew all I needed to know, and it was GOOD that I knew it, because no more than 4-5 days later, she tried to gaslight me about not having any feelings for this OM. At that point, I said "STOP IT -- we both know you're lying to me right now. I saw your text messages the other morning, so you can sell that to someone who's buying."
'Nads, there is nothing wrong with protecting yourself, and your family. In fact, I would claim that you have a moral imperative to do so.
