Bitter party of 1

[Ss06]

Thanks, Claire. Your encouragement means a lot.

I need help with something else:

My husband bought a groupon a few months ago for admission to a museum for two. We both forgot about it and while I was buying another groupon right now I saw it and asked him about it. He suggested we go together. WHAT.?!!?? I know he thinks we'd be great friends (his words were, "I don't have a dart board with your face on it or anything") but isn't this a tad weird? Can I use this to my advantage or is this a very bad idea. See, H thinks we'd be great divorced, great as friends, great co parents, etc., but I want to save the marriage! If we can be good together while not married in his head, why can't we be good together and work on the marriage???? I'm so lost! I feel like I'm going insane here.

[claire7]

No advice, but I can totally relate!

I want to give MWD my H's phone number and have her give him a piece of her mind!!

[Zues126]

That desire for a friendship is a tricky spot. I'm facing what might be a parallel situation. I'm asking my DB coach about it. I'll let you know what I learn Thursday night.

I'm in a different spot. My wife asked me to leave a month ago and is filing. Now she says she hopes we can be friends. I don't want to be friends. I want to stay married. Seems like being friends is allowing her to cake eat a bit and avoid reality. I am asking myself how close I'd want to be with her if she was remarried. Probably not very. So I'm setting my boundaries at the line I'd draw if that were the case.

Now, maybe I'm wrong and there is an advantage to continuing to be very loving. Particularly because my STBX once referenced something about "maybe we'll grow closer and be back together, the future is unknown" and is divorcing somewhat reluctantly. So I'll let you know the advice I get. And I don't know how to do it when you're still in the same house. The above is just how I feel. Not spiteful, just showing him the future. The reason you're not spiteful and the difference between that and giving up is that you're still working on changes that may attract him back.

Oh, and as for husband asking for any other thoughts, one mantra and reply I like is "I don't want to go back to the relationship we had. Anything from here would have to be a new R where it worked better for both of us"

Finally, FYI. Your h seems to be very manipulative. Honestly in my R I was a jerk and did something similar to a lesser extent. Basically I told my W that I was defeated and about ready to give up but that I loved her and was hoping for a miracle. Essentially I was trying to get her to be the one that changed. Wasn't man enough to face the music until she moved on a few months later. So this entire "inspire me that I should believe you can meet my standards" is pretty similar and not too cool. I like what you're doing and if he's anything like me he might turn around quick if you show him you're fed up with it.

Sorry, one of my worst posts ever, hopefully one paragraph was worthwhile, if not know I'm pulling for you!!!

[Ss06]

Zues, I'm trying really hard not be angry at his, "I'm done, you did this to me, you made me a shell of a man and I don't want to be married to you but let's be BFF" manipulation tactic and just take notice that I DO need to make changes. Changes that have been a long time in coming. I'm just ashamed it took THIS for me to actually do it. I've been ready for ages to make these changes, and more, but I was always waiting for him to do some changing too so it would be fair and balanced and equal effort. Sick right? Ugh. I did tell him I didn't feel responsible for him abandoning his own self respect. He responded, "no, you're responsible for many other things though." Ok then. I'm not afraid to own my stuff, to dig deep for change and make them lasting and permanent and meaningful. I WANT that but I want to do it with him by my side, not as his BFF after a divorce. If we can be friends for the sake of our daughter during a separation and imminent divorce, why can't we be friends IN our marriage and work on it properly?

I think you hit he nail on the head. His "inspire me that I should believe you can meet my standards" position has it me in a bad spot but I CAN meet those standards even though I shouldn't have to... Then he falls back on, "but I can't try anymore, I'm done".

Journaling: I can't help but think and get caught up on the fact that if the tables were turned and I left, he wouldn't fight for us. Not at all. He'd let me go and let the marriage die. He doesn't know how to work on this kind of stuff and can't admit that. He'd just say, " well, that's what she wants, what can I do" which his SAME attitude in the marriage. "I dont like how things are going so I'm going to wait until she gets the hint and then I'm going to leave because I can't put up with anymore". How am I supposed to work my way with that? And how do I build hope in someone who can't wait to be my BFF once we're divorced??

[sandi2]

What i am going to say is not in order to be mean to you....but you may need individual therapy to see what drove you to destroy your H's manhood. Clearly, you did not respect him. Like many typical LBS's it shook you up when he finally had enough. Now, you are panicking and afraid of D.

You need deep work on your problems. How much has this behavior affected your child? You said she had a lot of issues. Do you have a history of treating people the way you've treated your H? Frankly, I am surprised he wants to be friends with someone who would shred him to bits.

I probably don't have to tell you that a H will turn to another woman who will make him feel like a man when his own W has destroyed him. But I don't think you've really learned your lesson, and you haven't changed in just three weeks. I'm sure you have attempted, but it takes much longer to really set. You are more focused on getting him back, at this point, and it will cause you to stumble even more in those changes. I think you will have to release him and work extremely hard for a very long time, with perhaps professional help, in order to completely change over to the kind of woman you want to be. No amount of pleading will convince him it will be different if he stays. He will have to see proof that your changes are permanent and not just tactics to get him back.

You can't make him own his part of the breakdown of the M. Trust me, I know how infuriating that is! But all you can change is yourself. All you can own is your part. The blame game gets you nowhere. (I speak from experience.) He is responsible for his own changes, or even if he wanted to or not. That would be something you would have to consider. Would you accept him the way he is, or do you want him back with intentions of changing him?

Once you fix yourself, if he does decide to give it another chance, I hope you will find a solution-based MC to help you both reconcile and get through the piecing stages. Even successful DBers often need help in the piecing.

Btw, you may have every reason to be bitter. But the bitterness will act just like a cancer. It doesn't spite anyone but yourself. It is a terrible way to live, and nobody will want to live with you. You are still young enough to turn yourself around. Become the warm, supportive, and loving woman you really want to be.

[Ss06]

Sandi, I appreciate your comments and I think you're right even though it hurt to read your words. I started this thread not intending for it to be as flippant as it has become on my part and it doesn't represent how intent I am on significant, long term and meaningful change because, like you said, it's necessary. I know my husband is hurt and broken and I know it's because of me. It has only been three weeks so of course I'm not finished learning my lesson. There is still lots of soul searching and self reflection to do and I'm up for the work. I know he needs to see evidence that my changes are REAL and lasting and not a ploy for his recommitment. I know. I know. I really do know. I am lost and struggling and grasping for sure but my path is becoming more clear to me about what I have to do as far as change within myself so that *I* know I am ready for a R of ANY kind. I am in individual therapy as well as talking to a DB coach regarding all of this. I have a plan, solid but achievable goals and, I hope, a support system via this board. One breath at a time I will make the necessary changes, find out why I was such a monster and develop methods for me to cultivate further personal change.

Secondly, my bitterness is waning because I'm understanding more and more every day how that holds me back. There are times for anger and frustration and it's important to find healthy ways to release those emotions but I know this isn't some kind of quick fix. Repairing years of damage takes time and if anyone is bitter, it's my H. I understand.

I appreciate you calling me out, Sandi. The truth is sometimes hard to hear.

[Zues126]

Gosh, we're in such similar spots. I've been trying to change myself since BD 5 weeks ago and it hurts that my credit is no good. I, too, made the mistake of wanting her to change. When I tried to I felt I was the only one working on the R. And even though I'm realizing I was a bit of a monster, she still has some issues that may be a deal breaker if she doesn't own them...except for one thing...I DON'T believe in D and would probably learn to live with some hurt and disappointment my entire life because I figure that's life, no one gets everything they dream of, but I'd rather be disappointed with someone I love forever than on my own.

One thing I've been trying to do to help get beyond my hurt caused by my traditional point of view is to really learn HER point of view. Reading books on how to understand women. Rereading her old emails closer and trying to see the pattern of what she was telling me. Trying to figure out which of her needs I was trampling, and how it must have felt.

For example, I used porn during our R and was very frustrated with our sex life. Sex was one of my most primal needs and she never came close to understanding that. I felt like she didn't love me because she either didn't know or love who I really was...someone that wanted to be WITH HER. It hurt so bad I couldn't see past it. So when I read books or online posts, I was always reading stuff that echoed my point of view so I felt validated, and even tried getting her to read it so SHE would understand ME.

Now I'm doing the opposite. I'm trying to find articles/books on other women dealing with a demanding and delusional H with unrealistic sexual expectations and immature and manipulative tactics when faced with rejection. It's hard to read, it hurts me just to hear that point of view. But it's really good practice for me to deal with those emotions and start to learn where those insecurities are coming from on my end. Like a doctor saying 'does it hurt there' I am trying to figure out where I'm most broken so I can try to take healing steps. And I'm practicing validating her POV in my mind by reading these other things and trying to see past myself.

What specifically do you think you did wrong in the M?
Why was this so difficult for you?
What are you doing to try to get to the heart of that issue?

Maybe it would help if you talked more about the growth you're working on instead of the day by day events. Remember, that's superficial and we can't believe any of it...look deeper, be strong, and take care of yourself!!! Praying for you.

[Ss06]

I wish i could hug you, Zues, because I can relate to so much of what you're saying.

My H's LL is words of affirmation and physical touch. I am terrible with both of these. I used to feel that attempting to love him the way he wanted to be loved should come easily lest it feel and be interpreted as fake or disingenuous. This was my way of not having to work too hard at it, I think. I always said that I wasn't sure how to verbally affirm him without it sounding scripted. Now, after reading DB and DR I realize that I don't need to understand why he needs what he needs, I just need to give him what he needs. Yet here I sit still not sure how to affirm him verbally beyond saying thank you or telling him he did a great job at something or that I'm proud of him for something. And then that makes me wonder if I was actually OK at words of affirmation but his expectations are just too high and no one could actually make him happy in that department. Ugh, but that can't be true, right? What other ways can I verbally affirm him, show him that I care, that I think he's great, awesome in fact, a hero in many ways??? Then the physical touch... oy. I'm not great at affection and because it doesn't come naturally I was again worried about it seeming forced, scripted and disingenuous. Why was I so worried about what it seemed? I think because i didn't want to do it wrong so I didn't do it very often. I'd ask for feedback and he'd say, "that's nice" when I'd stroke his back in the car or hold his hand, rub his arm, scratch his back, rub his neck but that's it. I'd ask him to show me what he wants in the way of affection. You know, like love me the way you want to be loved. Never happened. He'd never reach for my hand, touch me, be affectionate with me. We were never the couple who kissed when we parted or came home to each other, despite both our wishes in that department. I think we were just to go-go-go, task oriented, let's get out the door type people and we both could benefit from slowing down and paying closer attention to each other. I think he wanted to feel cherished and my goodness, who doesn't?! I want to give that to him. I want him to feel cherished, loved, as though he is special to me, appreciated, affirmed and simply liked. I feel like these are inalienable rights one should have in a marriage and I neglected to give him those feelings.

So, to answer your question about what i specifically did wrong, Zeus, I neglected and abused our marriage by not taking special care of it in general, in thousands of ways but mostly by not actively honoring my H's needs for basic care. I'm a type A person to the core. I'm very action oriented (can you guess that my LL is acts of service??), goal oriented and I get things done, tasks done. Emotionally caring for my husband was not something I even put on my list. He wanted to connect with me via physical touch and sex and I wanted him to emotionally connect with me via acts of service and to look me in the eye every once in a while to SEE me. We did the chicken egg thing for too long and now here we are. I was so afraid of being vulnerable, of putting myself out there emotionally because I was partly afraid of rejection, yes, but mostly because I was afraid my efforts wouldn't be recognized and that would hurt too much and take the wind completely out of my sails. I think I felt like I was never going to satisfy him so I wanted credit for trying, for my good intention but he needed me to actually SUCCEED. Duh! I've always said that good intentions pave to road to hell and the effort I put into our marriage was full of good intentions... and now we're in hell. How's that for just desserts, huh?

What am I trying to do to get to the heart of the matter? I am exploring why I feel like my feelings matter over his. Honestly I think a lot of it comes down to how I see my dad. He is very cerebral and I'm not sure ever had an unplanned emotion in his life and I wonder if I see all men like that. I married a very creative, golden hearted man who is the complete opposite of a linear thinker but that doesn't mean he doesn't FEEL or need connection. This is all stuff I knew but never really processed or saw my role in. I always just assumed that people are who they are and will continue to be who they are. I'm realizing now that H needs affirmations that I like who he is. That I appreciate his efforts, his insight, his opinions, HIM.

I read Sex Starved Marriage but I need to re-read it cover to cover because it's so profound I need to take notes and underline like crazy. I never realized that my physical rejection of sex was such a deep and profound emotional rejection to H. How could i not realize that? I've been so obtuse about things like that that I'm ashamed but shame isn't productive. My emotional and sexual neglect of my H has made him turn to porn, lots and lots of porn. He has even contacted escorts though he has said he has never met up with any. I see my role in all of that. Clearly.

What I'm doing:

1. continuing with LRT and GAL, being kind not needy, friendly not flirty, mysterious but not suspicious.
2. I am taking personal inventory on all the ways I've neglected and abused this marriage. I need to make a list in writing because that will lead me to more action and allow me to break each item down into step by step solutions.
3. Breathing. The ache inside me is so heavy and so strong. Refocusing and breathing is helping.
4. STFU- I'm shutting up. I'm not critical at all, I'm not judging at all, I'm not getting in the way of his parenting our daughter (they fight horribly but he can handle it, I trust him). I'm extending that to my face too, no facial "commenting".

Thoughts? Suggestions?


I'm open to suggestions on other things I can be doing. I meet with my DB coach on Friday so we'll talk about this too.

[Ss06]

I am learning how to listen more closely to H's needs and see what i can do to make changes that will support him better. I'm conflicted. On one hand I wonder if trying to be there for him, being available to listen, to engage in general talk and show him that I care, that I appreciate him, his efforts, etc... is showing him the changes I am making, etc. but on the other hand is it hovering? Needy? Pursuing? How can I be emotionally supportive without hovering and pursuing?

Please help.

[Zues126]

I'm at work, hopefully will have time to post more later. But you're doing a great job, not to say you can't go further, but it's an impressive start.
I'd encourage you to look up my thread for the flip side. You might be right about never being able to meet his expectations. My thread talks about why that is. Bottom line, if he doesn't feel good enough on his own you can't fill the he for him.
HOWEVER, that doesn't mean what you do doesn't matter. Even if he's delusional in a world of fantasy, impossible expectations, and crippled self worth...he isn't a fool. If you become the woman only a fool would leave, detach, heal the void in your own self (the one that triggered your hurt which in turn blocked your willingness to be more attentive to your H), and allow him to see those changes...he may not fall into your arms. But he might realize as you drift away that he's trading a very attractive reality which, while imperfect, trumps the heck out of a very soulless fantasy.
So have faith. He may never work on himself. But become the woman you want and you'll give him a good reason to grow up. And if, as may unfortunately be the case, he doesn't...you'll be stronger, have a better relationship with yourself, and ready to move into a brighter future. But regardless of what you see you don't have to give up hope. Again, read my thread. See how I behaved, and how I'm going to the ends of the earth to transform myself now. Didn't happen until my STBX started moving on...
Make each day a small win and have faith in yourself!