To Pursue or Not

[theoden]

Arcola,

Sorry you are in this situation -- it stinks. You seem like a really good man, too good, in fact. I'd say you are nice guy. And you know what they say about nice guys?

Sorry to say this, but situation is about to get much worse, in fact you are about to go through the greatest sh*t-storm of you life. So listen closely.


1. Being the nice, needy, "best friend" while you wife is planning to leave you, gets a new apartment, has an OM in the picture, and then tells you she wants a divorce is clearly not working. The only thing that's going to make your wife think twice is your continued GAL activities, PLUS hard-core Last Resort Technique AND a strong stance about what YOU want should you move towards divorce. Right now the best person who can give you any advice is Starsky on these boards. Do EXACTLY what he says. Your wife doesn't respect you and isn't very attracted to you. I don't know if it's possible to re-attract her at this point. I think even MWD would recommend getting more hard-line at this point.

2. I don't fully understand the situation with your foster-children. How long have they lived with you? Do you BOTH want to adopt them? I'm about to say some very unpleasant things. Do you think this is the best time to be adopting children -- as you are about to potentially go through a divorce? The reason I say this, is that if you successfully adopt them, and the divorce case goes in her favor you may be financially liable for those kids, perhaps for the next 21 years and yet, perhaps, they are going to be partially raised if not mostly raised by another man. Sorry if I'm sounding crassly pragmatic. It may not be the best thing for these kids to be getting adopted into a sh*t-storm of a divorce with an OM involved.

3. You need to accept the fact that, given your wife's behavior, you are moving into an adversarial situation. She wants to keep the kids, she wants the house and she probably is going to want child-support. It's time to speak to a good family law/divorce attorney ASAP. Know you rights. I don't know what the laws in your state are, but collect evidence of her affair and start logging how much time you each spend with the children. In some states the person who has the kids more than 50% of the time get ALL the child support from the other person (as much as 35% of their income). In some states if it's 50/50 custody, the parent who makes MORE money pays ALL the child support to the other. In some states child support is calculated based on custody arrangement. DON'T tell your wife that you are collecting evidence, DON'T tell her you have consulted an attorney. Also, you wife leaving the marital home is not good for her case. You may not want to let her take the kids, which may hurt you later on. Talk to your attorney about what will protect your interests best. Maybe she gets to see the kids every other weekend, etc. or 40% of the time. Also talk to your divorce attorney about adopting the kids and what that means. Does she need you to adopt those kids? Does that give you leverage? Can you adopt them without her?

4. Prepare yourself for a divorce. Stop being a deer in the headlights hoping your nice guy routine is going to set the clock back and make everything better. All the evidence says your wife is about to run you over with a truck (financially and legally). So, if you are going to get divorced think hard: WHAT DO YOU WANT? Full custody of the children, possession of your marital home, 50/50 custody? FIGURE THIS OUT NOW. If you don't, your wife or the court will be deciding this for you. Do not drag your heels. The longer you do, the more contempt she'll feel towards you and the more vicious she'll get in the divorce. A friend of mine was being the nice guy in his divorce. His wife got the kids, moved out state with her lover who is raising my friend's children with her AND he has the privilege of paying child support to his ex wife and her lover.

5. You said the OM was #1 in her mind and you are #2. WRONG. She OM is #1, her kids are #2 and you aren't even in the picture. Sorry. If the best interests of your kids were in her mind, she wouldn't be getting a divorce. And if this drags on long enough, she'll try to destroy you. Your best shot at getting an equitable arrangement in the divorce with a functional relationship with you ex is to be clear and strong up front. This also may be your last shot at re-attracting her.

6. Why are you kids hanging around the OM and his kids? You can get a judge to stop that if you want. Most judges don't look favorably at a spouse introducing their kids to their lovers while still married. It's up to you dude. But it seems that you are OK (at least in your wife's mind) with all this behavior -- which is not attractive to your wife. You're not the invisible man. Show up. Take control of your life. Lay down some boundaries. What if she asks you to wait outside with the car running for her while she stops in for quickie with the OM, will you accept that too? Sorry for being so crass, here. I'm hoping you'll snap out of YOUR fog.

7. I refer all people to the Chump Lady webiste. It's hilarious, but like a whack on the side of the head to people who are trying to "nice" their cheating spouses back in to the marriage. It's a much needed tonic.

--Theoden

[Arcola]

Through some intel I came across, W and is filling fed up with OM. He's pressuring for them to be more sooner rather than later. She's also fed up with me. So I think I'm going to back off being Mr. Nice Guy as others on these boards have mentioned. Its nothing yet, and I probably should just pay it no mind, but she for once feels like she wants to make things work between us.

Am I right to back off, or slowly, seldomly show her affection (the area I failed in).

[Starsky309]

Stay detached, mysterious, interesting. Busiest guy in the room. Look good/smell good. Courteous, even engaging, but not NEEDY, not "MELTY MAN" and not PURSUING.

Make sense?

Let her come to you. And when she does, your answer is "Hmmm, I'll have to think about that. I'm not sure how I feel about that (getting back together to work on the marriage) anymore." or "I'm afraid it's not that easy anymore."

A wayward wife losing her attraction for OM1 is only 1/3 of the battle, Arc. If you don't RE-attract her, by working on your GALing and your self-improvements, she will more likely turn to an OM2 than she will to return to the marriage.

Starsky

[igit]

Hi Starsky, igit here hoping you can catch up on my thread.
Thank you

[Arcola]

An update on sitch. Sitch appears to be changing slowly. I came across some photos or Facebooks likes of W that I assume goes along with what she's thinking at the moment. For example, she Liked or found some photo that read something to the effect, "Marriage is two imperfect people who refuse to give up on each other." Another photo read to the effect, "Don't touch my man. Don't message my man. Don't call my man." I'm not over thinking these, but I'm surprised to see.

I also know she is okay with our case worker postponing the approval of her rental home. Moreover, last week she found out she could have been living in the house without it being approved yet. Knowing this she didn't rush to start living there and doesn't have a date in mind that I know of. She told me she was scared and sad to find this out. Lastly, with the case worker postponing, she mentioned to her IF our sitch gets to S or D.

Last week W mentioned she had told OM that they cant be friends and he should back off. She also told him she knows this will be hard on the girls (my daughter and his). She told me she didn't mean this wholeheartedly but did tell him. This came sometime after we had a talk about our sitch where I apologized how my failed R areas played a role in what has happened. I'm assuming they still talk and she still goes to his church. She did go this last Sun.

In regards to church, I had to go to the church to pick her and the kids up because she locked herself out of "my" car. I felt weird having to go do so and I also felt mad that I had to be in the presence of "their" church. So these feelings happened twice as I had to go pick her and kids up and then come back when she found her set of keys at home to unlock the car as I had gave her my key which was locked in the car. This was the case because I was taking "her" car to get looked at.

Another occurrence to add to this update is that she brought up the topic of ML. Out of nowhere while we're at the mall watching our kids play in the play area she asks, "Whats the longest we've ever gone without ML?" I answered as best my memory served me and then went on to say I kept track for a little while since this has been going on, but I no longer worry about it. And that ended the topic.

Lastly, I haven't been pursuing physically like I initially did. I've given an arm rub or shoulder rub to say bye when leaving for work in the morning, but that's all. I did try to kiss her this past week because we went out to lunch, but she wasn't trying to kiss me. She didn't say no, but she wasn't trying to meet me halfway either. The lunch was her idea and it has been months since we've been out to lunch.

[Arcola]

It’s been a while since I’ve posted, so I figured an update on sitch was due. This week I should expect W to be moved out of the house. Today, we moved the majority of the things she wanted her rental. There are still some things left, but she was making sure she got every little thing that was hers. Not even an outfit left over. I helped her, because 1) She’s dialed down contact and or ceased with OM and 2) I feel some guilt not helping since my kids are involved in all this mess. The kids I know are confused and my oldest, 9, is sad but happy. Daughter, 9, hasn’t come to me with any concerns out of the usual. I’m hurt and angry at the whole moving out. Primarily what upsets me is that WAW has said a couple times that we aren’t done when I’ve asked. But what gets me is how are we not done but you’re so set on moving out. I’ll admit that I haven’t followed the DBing to a T, but it just seems to me she is being counterproductive of what she says by what she does.

Moreover, through conversations with me and just me guessing how she’s feeling, she has stated that she wants/wanted me to move out. I’ve apologized to her numerous times that I’ve contributed to our marriage getting towards that cliff, but I really don’t see why I should be the one who moves. At no point have I introduced an OW let alone entertained an OW during our situation or marriage. I feel some guilt, 5%, that I’m not moving out since it uproots the kids either way. The other 95% non-guilt is, she is the one who so quickly had to separate from me since she felt things weren’t getting any better between us at the beginning of our situation.

Continuing on the topic of her rental, we’ve being paying $900 a month for a home that has served the purpose of a staging home, meaning she’s furnishing it, for 5 months now. W and I recently learned that her and kids could have moved in the house prior to CPS/licensing agency approval. Moreover, we’ve learned that the info we’ve been given at the beginning of our sitch in regards to how we should proceed to still be able to adopt the kids was all misleading. Furthermore, our license has been moved/submitted under this rental home. So the way forward with adopting the kids is all unclear. Our licensing worker spoke to a few attorneys and came back with they’ve never heard of this kind of situation with an adoption and that regardless it would be up to the judge. At this point, I’m really scared as to how this will play out or the options we’ll be given. It was bad enough that we were separating (will this week)/possibly divorcing and going to adopt them.

Furthermore on WAW’s rental is that she very well may have a best friend of hers come to live with her for X amount of months. This friend of hers has been around since we were dating and I served in the Army with her now ex-husband. Her friend had a nasty divorce with her husband and now I believe is married to guy, but it isn’t all that great (both abuse alcohol). The guy she’s married to now is supposed to be deploying so it’s been some talk between her and W about her coming out here to stay since she really doesn’t know anyone in the state/area she’s in. If this happens, I think this is a major monkey wrench into me DBing anything. I’m sure some of the darker side of divorce will come out, but I think more of the chase your feelings, be happy will be predominant.

Wife has dialed down contact with OM from what she says and I can see. I think she still has feelings for him as she has said on numerous talks when we’ve spoke of OM. On our return from New Mexico, W and I had talk about our situation in which I lost it primarily when I was expressing my feelings towards OM. And this occurred again a couple of days later at our home. I thought this played a role in her dialing back how much or interactions without OM, but I don’t know if it has had any affect. As far as I know her relationship with OM hasn’t hit the sexual relations, but I due suspect (snooping) they have kissed. I questioned her about the kiss without revealing my means on our talk coming home from NM, but she denies they’ve kissed.

OM’s daughter spent the night this past Fri. because it was my daughter’s, 9, birthday. This didn’t sit well with me, but wife did ask me and I thought we were heading in the right direction given she’s cut back or ceased contact with OM. The opportunity for OM’s daughter to spend the night came about because she goes to the same after school program as my daughter and just so happened to be picking up his kids when W was picking up daughter. From what W says, she didn’t offer, it was pre-arranged by my daughter just waiting parent approval. So OM’s daughter and another girl that is a family friend stayed the night Fri. It’s sad that these situations, WAS, can have you feeling anger towards kids who are innocent in the whole situation. I didn’t let this get to much, because as I said she’s innocent, it’s her dad that I highly dislike.

Relations with me and WAW have been bitter. We’ve hugged a couple of times in the past two months, but it’s usually when her emotions are high on our whole sitch. It’s been over a month since we’ve ML. We haven’t split finances, but should be doing so soon since we’re separating and wife has acknowledged we will do this. Aside from our situation, she’s still parenting our children as she always has. And talks between us usually involve the kids.

In closing I’d like to ask for some advice on what I should do. I’ll admit before any responses, that I give myself a big 0 on GAL and 180. I make too many excuses for GAL (schedule, 5 kids, guilt in leaving wife with all kids while awake) and 180 excuses too, but how can I 180 on being affectionate, when she has said the following: it makes her mad, makes her confused, it feels so forced, she doesn’t feel anything for it)

[twinmom]

I get how hard it is to GAL with 5 kids..... I struggle with this all the time. Between nursing the baby, the twins finally being potty trained but LOVE to use every public bathroom in sight, and the older boys basketball/student council/friends activities when I get a sitter all I want to do is SLEEP.
But, you have to! You have to start small but just meet up with a friend for dinner one night a week (then go take a nap in your car before coming home) yep! I have done this many times.


Separate finances, make her choices a reality. As Starsky has told me you were fired from your job as a spouse.

What things are you working on? What improvements are you making in yourself?

[Arcola]

I just wish I understood my WAW. Some snooping today, text exchange between her and a friend, says, “When this whole thing first started I wanted to work on things and learn to appreciate each other and maybe fix it. That was more than six months ago and now I’m just so angry that he’s done nothing and his excuse is because he doesn’t feel like you should have to prove himself or compete with anyone”

I couldn’t believe she had really said that to her friend.

When I confronted her about OM, yeah for 2 – 4 weeks she did want to work on things, but made sure I knew she had feelings for him and just needed some time and that he was just a friend. In that 2 - 4 weeks we went back and forth on her wanting to work on things. I recall she went on travel for work for 1 week and we were supposedly working on things. Upon her return she said to the effect, “I value his friendship and don’t want to lose him as a friend.” Another instance was we spent a Saturday together out in a neighboring city (has more attractions than the city we stay in) and it went well I thought. However, Sun. she wants to go to his church and when I ask her why, she says because she wants something different. Lastly, since ultimatum day after the end of the 4th week, she hasn’t communicated to me that she wants to do whatever it takes to work on us. If anything, I recall more of her wanting to talk/move in the direction of separating and her not stopping being “friends” with OM. And I really don’t know how separating will make this any better

Should I compete? Well, I did, but my actions weren’t wanted and its like too much too late. I know another site similar to MWD’s setup states the LBS should either compete or do nothing for the first 6 months. After that 6 months he recommends pretty much the same principles as people here have.

Her actions and her words are on completely different pages.

[Arcola]

W and I are separated now and 12/11 makes day 4. I hate the fact that we are splitting the kids between homes. They've always taken more to W and now it hurts to see them take to her given I think its negatively impacting our family. We don't have a set schedule yet, but its pretty 50/50. Its hurts that my family has gotten to this point. I haven't seen any behaviors from the children too negative since the separation so that makes it somewhat easier to cope.

She still has a few things in our marital home. I'm not sure when she's coming to get them. It bothers me to see her move her things, but she moved the Christmas tree to her house yesterday and that really got to me. Sadly, I saw the tree at her house last night because I came over to be with the kids for a while. I didn't pay it much mind and didn't even realize it was the tree from my house. I didn't realize the tree was missing from my house until this evening when I wanted to put the lights on I had bought at the store after leaving her house that night. (I know some may think how do you not know the Christmas tree was gone? My mind/thoughts aren't right right now. The tree was right next to the living room TV which I watched last night before going to bed) The whole tree taking gets me because we haven't even discussed how we would spend Christmas. Just a little time ago I recall we at least said we'd spend it as a family, but that was the most detail of it.

OM is still in the picture, but I'm not sure where they stand with each other. From what I could tell contact had been sparse between the two, but now seems to have picked up some. I also think there may be an OM2. Only time will tell and more snooping.

At this point I really don't know what I'm trying to achieve by snooping. At first it was to use as evidence if we divorced. Now its like Yahoo and reading somebody else business. I hope something positive does come out of my snooping. I have no idea if I'll ever show my cards as some DBers have phrased or let her know I've been snooping.

Snooping has led me to not discount this W's EA as a MLC, but I'd say a mixture of the two. My W has for the majority of our marriage been voluptuous. I've always thought she was beautiful nonetheless. Well, this past year to present she has slowly been losing weight. With losing weight comes confidence and a changing wardrobe. This wardrobe is like the woman business casual, but no pants suits and a little tighter fitting. So with these changes comes the compliments that I guessed have boosted her ego. Point being, text exchange between her and some friends about how they look and if they looked like this or that have led me to believe this is a prevalent factor in whats going on.

Snooping has also led me to come across an exchange between her and a friend(s) about "discussing" their separation from men. My W is seeming more and more like she's not her age or something. I recall back in high school and below it was too easy to drop a girlfriend or get dropped and move on

Snooping led me to whats in my previous post. To me it seems like it hitting some of Sandi's Rules. Based on that text exchange I thought she wanted to work on things but was confused on how to. So for a little bit I've been doing what I feel is right as far as piecing. Unfortunately, she hasn't come to me and outright shown remorse for everything and wanting to work on it. Is it showing remorse when you still keep doing the things that you're supposedly sorry for?

A question for the vet DBers out there if you read this. What is the sign that its time to start piecing? Is it clear as day when it comes, or does it gradually come to light? Is piecing along the lines of the separated couple (guy, WAW, son) MWD details in Divorce Busting where the guy uses the LRT even though no affair was still ongoing?

[Arcola]

Tonight has officially ended my snooping. I go to logon to W's cellular online account and enter the secret question answer wrong ONCE and they lock her account. The only way to unlock it is to send a text to her phone. So, I then proceed to remove/add her as an account manager thinking that would reset or create a new account and that didn't work. So between locking her account and add/remove account manager I'm sure she'd received 2-3 text messages. I couldn't verify on the web cause it hadn't been updated since like 2:45 PM.

So at this point I've panicked and wanted to come clean before being caught/confronted. So I call her and tell her what I've done and that I'm sorry. I also tell her this wasn't my style but due to our whole situation I just couldn't believe the things she said (Prior to our sitch I could careless who she was texting).

Our convo lasts about 5 minutes and surprisingly her tone didn't convey she was upset. She was about to meet with a friend at the bar after her work Christmas party so she didn't say anything except okay. I think she is semi-upset, but more scared/ashamed because now she knows I've seen some of the text exchange between her and OM.

I wanted to keep this snooping a secret probably forever, but I think I'm glad I've confessed. It has freed me of the worry of what if she finds out. Well, I feel good I confessed, and now I've probably helped myself to further detach.