3 1/2 years ago, I gained some insight, but it was only 2 months before we got back together. Life did not hit me as hard then as I thought it did. I claimed I was better, but at the time i was still wallowing in self pity, nothing really changed.
When she took me back, things were new again-ish. and it made everything feel good. For the first year or so everything was so good we did nothing to fix the original issues that caused the break. However there was one difference. I gave up control, all of it. She was in control, I did not argue with her decision, and always let her have the last word.
Looking at that now - there was a power dynamic at play and her expectations became higher and higher. I was not able to reach them, and I believe I eventually gave up (unconsciously I believe).
I know I am wallowing, but I am doing it on here, and not to her - I am crying out of sight. I have not posted on Facebook in near a week. I have not texted her in any way, and my responses are simple. My emotions were controlling me completely until about a week ago.
I prayed for peace, and the pain in my chest left the next day. I prayed for strength, and my mind was clearer to know what I needed to do.
Frankly, I understand what you say "The wallowing and the neediness and tears of self pity about YOUR loss" - I agree that this needs to stop. But at what point does it matter that I am to lose everything that I held dear. Yes I am losing a lot, but I am gaining knowledge - there is nothing greater. I am not asking for pity, deserved or not. I understand that my own actions, or lack of, put me where I am - but as I have said - it was not a good marriage, but it was by far not bad - but again my perspective only.
She has lost a lot too - when does that become apparent to her. I know I cannot point out what she is losing. I know what she is losing.
"You want to be a man only a fool would leave. What are you DOING to become that man?"
I am a man that would walk the end of the earth for her - this she already knows. I am working my butt off at work, and am in line for a promotion and a pay raise - to a position that I will enjoy at work, so I will be happy to work and provide. I am talking to my children in a way that i have never done before because I missed out on this, I have much to make up for. Their smiles make me happier than I thought they would. When we were out on Halloween, I got to see them in a way I never had before - it may very well have been the first time I was with them without the W outside the home.
I do not live in the home. I have no friends or family that we have mutual contact with. I have no vehicle, so I do not go anywhere often, or very far. The Only changes she will see, will be through our children. I WILL NOT use them as a tool, but feel at a disadvantage that she will be blind to these changes for a long while.
I have always been this man, I was just selfish and lazy. Looking back I had no reason to be selfish or lazy, so I have abandoned both of those qualities. But again, these changes are for me and the future of my children; yet still I do them knowing she may never notice.
My crying and wallowing I do on here because I like to express what I feel. I like to talk and listen. This is what inspires me to learn more. I do not post on here words of eloquence looking for remorse. No different than an author who writes on his own life events. I like words and what they can express, but I enjoy more the replies, and the wisdom they assist me in obtaining.
Looking back I agree, most women might have left me - but this is where I have said before, my perspective is not entirely incorrect. I am and always was charming ans sweet, smart and caring - I was just inconsistent. I did love her, and showed it to her, it just was not enough to overcome the rest. She waited for me to change, I did not.
I am different today than 3 years ago - Then at the first moment she wanted me back I got a plane the next day and went home. I did not fully understand my flaws, nor did I work on the ones I did. She had not realized Any of hers, and had no time to think of anything.
The OM she was seeing emotionally then, had moved 3 hours away and was not able to be with her. The moment she realized that she called me and asked me to come home. She was still on control and I ran back without fixing even 1 issue. We were happy because we were both pretending the past was over - we were Both wrong.
After I wrote the prior note here: I thought about something.
You know I really don't care bout what it is that I have lost. It's only a house, my children are my home. My wife was once, and maybe someday again - they are my home. I would like to believe that she will miss what she has lost. Even though I was not perfect, probably not even "good", but I would like to think that there was plenty of good there. She had a family, and good man, even if semi-broken. I don't want to feel cocky about what she may have lost, but she may have lost more than I.
I am a man that would walk the end of the earth for her
You make statements like this, and how you love her unconditionally, but your behavior does not line up with it. It's just words. She didn't feel like you were walking to the end of the earth for her.....or the kids. What did you do to show that you would?
You are too dependent. You depended on your W to keep the M and family going. You depended on her to do the work and to supply your needs. But you didn't give in return. 25yrs has given you excellent guidance. I can see that you want to get a little dependent on her too (wanting to talk with her off the board) and I understand it (I once was a newcomer), but you just want someone to hold your hand. You aren't applying what is said. You have not said what your goals are in improving yourself. You have not made a plan of action. You are just talking, instead of doing. And if things don't work out, then you will probably blame DBing instead of yourself. Problem is, you are not DBing.
It's good, and necessary, to own your part of the breakdown, but you have to take action to correct these behaviors that harm a R....and yourself as a man. You can't change the past, but you can take measures to insure history isn't repeated. If she came back tomorrow, you would not be ready. You would repeat the same behavior. It takes work and time to develop personal changes for life. You should have enough motivation, but I doubt you do. You are still keeping score and saying, "I may have done x but she did z". You may accept failure to a point, then make sure we know she's to blame too. But then you claim unconditional love? That's why I asked if you could love her while she lived with this OM as much as if she was with you. You can't. Not unconditionally. And that's ok, but don't make these types of claims.
You said you were lazy. I think this is something you may have to battle from now on, or it will be your undoing. Relationships take work, if they have any life. You are still waiting on her. You ask how will she notice your changes or if she'll even care. Well what if she doesn't? You are just prolonging getting down to work!
Sure, you like to talk. But you know what they say about talk. When are you going to get serious and actually do something? You were able to return to the M in 2011 and didn't have to do anything but wait for her to tell you when to come home. It won't work like that this time. She's fed up with your treatment, and who could blame her? No, it doesn't justify her A, but neither does anything excuse you. Stop pointing fingers and start becoming the man you need to be.
Don't replace one dependency with another one. Build yourself a social life. Get involved with something that doesn't require a computer. Start giving back to your community/church with volunteering in some human needs.
And get a vehicle.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Either you are misunderstanding me, or you are presuming I am just sitting here typing and hoping for a quick fix.
I am going to be blunt: Several times in this forum I have stated my problems. Our conversations are nothing more than me tearing open all the wounds and explaining why each was there - Mine And my wife's. Every time there is a reply I feel more badgered by my expressions than by the fact that I understand.
I have learned and understood my mistakes, I have owned them, and feel that I am still being punished by all the responses here. I am owning my mistakes. And I promise by myself and God that I will never make these mistakes again - regardless of my chances with my wife.
No I have not actually made a list of "to do's" for my future, but that does not mean I do not know what I want, or Need to do.
When I asked to speak to 25 off the board it was not intended for a hand holding, it was meant for a conversation that is near impossible on this forum. Actual communication. Nothing more.
I am broke I cannot afford a car at the moment. I am working overtime and even got a promotion, that I start on the 9th. In time I will get a vehicle. I have literally a dollar in the bank, and a ton of bills. Making a point, not asking for pity.
Yes I talk the talk - and I am trying my darnedest to walk it. Mistake after mistake i got it. I would love to apologize for not doing it right 3 years ago. I am tired of apologizing, I want to do it now. And I will - for me, and for my children. If she sees that wants to reconcile - all the better.
I never aid I was not going to make these changes if she does not notice, I just have a lot of curiosity. Character flaw? perhaps.
And no I will never blame DB'ing - ever. This forum has done nothing to steer me wrong, and I would not blame it for any reason. My own actions are to blame for the outcome of my life - I get that. My questions are for understanding, not justification. I am not trying to get answers to make what I need to do be easier.
Yes I do still love her, regardless that she is with the OM, just as I would love my child if he/she were an alcoholic - but that does not mean I cannot express disappointment - since I know it to be wrong, unhealthy, and damaging in the long run - especially to our children. Yes I still love her, and if she asked me to do something I would. I don't intend her "blame" to be negative, just that I want some day - regardless of outcome - for her to admit and own her own faults - but that by far will not change whether I love her.
I attempted to show her that I would walk to the end of the earth. Obviously I failed. I did not show enough, regardless of all that I did wrong, I always showed compassion. When she had a bad day I listened and did not judge. I was still sweet and charming and made my life about her. Too much in fact because I was suffocating her - again a mistake.
"When are you going to get serious and actually do something?" I AM doing it. And if you do not think so, then say specifics.
I am working more and diligently, I am getting a promotion and a raise. I am making plans to see my children more than once per week. I have stopped trying to pursue and get my wife to notice. I have stopped wondering where and what she is doing all day. I do not call my few friends to cry and pout about my feelings. I walk to the store once per day (15 blocks) just to get air and see the sun. I have no car and live in a crappy town with nothing exciting to do. Everything fun is in 30 miles in any direction. When I have a car, I will be happy to do more. You will probably call that an excuse, but I am not walking 30 miles.
I WILL be and STAY a better man. Because I am. I have not learned everything. But I know my mistakes, I understand SO much more than I ever did. I write myself letters and re read them just to hear myself talk, and then rewrite it then put it away.
I will not make these mistakes again - with her or without.
No more about what you "would do" or "will do"; just what you ARE doing.
You speak of what SHE is losing by not being married to you. What was she getting From you? A lot of financial support? No...a lot of help wth the kids? NO, you just said that Halloween was the "First time" you have been with your kids and not with your wife. The first time you have been alone with your kids in their lives, was a few days ago. Were you as shocked to read that, as I was? There is so much you have NOT been doing.
You did not show her the things you claim to feel, so they really don't matter much.
Sort of like how you did not "Not INTEND to have sex with and impregnate OW" See, you seem to believe that your stated claims of what you intended or did not, or what you feel, matters MORE than what you do. But it's just the opposite.
Actions always speak much louder than words. You don't act like you say you feel. You "would go" to the ends of the earth for her?
Then get a car, make some friends, spend a lot more alone time with your kids, and change.
Bottom line is that she's "taking" nothing from you. The things you lack, like a car or friends, are NOT things your wife is supposed to provide you in life. OR they are things you did not actively have or show interest in.
Inertia, laziness and wallowing, are your enemies now.
When you find yourself facing a choice and you struggle to know what is right to do, chances are the option that requires more effort - is the RIGHT one.
If the easier choice were the morally "right" choice, you'd have made it already.
The struggle comes when we know what the right thing to do is, but we just don't want to do it. OR don't know how. That's where the work comes in.
So the question is, do YOU think it is worth it to become the man you were meant to become? You admit you enjoyed your kids more than you expected, which is telling. Earlier You said you didn't see the need or advantage to making friends, so you don't have any. Well, do you still feel that way?
If I could emotionally and behaviorally kick you in the pants, I would. I don't know how to "make" you value friendship or time with your kids or how to get you to wake up to your life.
Sandi's post said it well. Read it again, please.
Start acting and Doing more, projecting and predicting less.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
No more about what you "would do" or "will do"; just what you ARE doing.
...Halloween was the "First time" you have been with your kids and not with your wife. The first time you have been alone with your kids in their lives, was a few days ago. Were you as shocked to read that, as I was? There is so much you have NOT been doing.
^^I meant Outside the home, an activity. All 3 at the same time. Same point I understand. But just clarifying.
Start acting and Doing more, projecting and predicting less.
^^That made more sense than just about everything I have read.
Every time there is a reply I feel more badgered by my expressions than by the fact that I understand.
You are not being badgered! You are being challenged!
Going to work is great. Seeing your children is wonderful. Stopping the pity parties is good. That is progress.
As I said before, it takes work and time to develop life long changes. It is easy to say what we want and that we won't repeat the same mistakes. What I am trying to impress on you is that you have to start now to change your personal and relational behavior patterns. It takes practice every day. That why you need some kind of plan to keep yourself on track.
Now that you have identified some of the areas you are lacking, can make some personal goals to reach every week? Can you reach out to develop yourself and your life? Find ways to help you make these changes?
I understand broke. I understand living in a one-horse town. I know what it's like to have very, very little. I have been there. I have also learned that when you set your mind to something.....you will find a way, if you want it bad enough not to give up trying.
Don't get defensive and don't give up.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Every time there is a reply I feel more badgered by my expressions than by the fact that I understand.
You are not being badgered! You are being challenged!
I understood that right after I posted, I apologize I was quick.
Going to work is great. Seeing your children is wonderful. Stopping the pity parties is good. That is progress.
Thank you
As I said before, it takes work and time to develop life long changes. It is easy to say what we want and that we won't repeat the same mistakes. What I am trying to impress on you is that you have to start now to change your personal and relational behavior patterns. It takes practice every day. That why you need some kind of plan to keep yourself on track.
Now that you have identified some of the areas you are lacking, can make some personal goals to reach every week? Can you reach out to develop yourself and your life? Find ways to help you make these changes?
Just need some clarification on some of the finer points here, aside from my children or financial. When it comes to the issues I had with her - how to I work on those without interaction with her?
And seriously, how does one make friends. I have a few, but they are phone friends, game friends. I've known them for years, but they are not local. The church I would go to is near 20 miles away. And until I can drive again....
I understand broke. I understand living in a one-horse town. I know what it's like to have very, very little. I have been there. I have also learned that when you set your mind to something.....you will find a way, if you want it bad enough not to give up trying. Sounds like exactly how I feel about my marriage.
Don't get defensive and don't give up.
I apologize for getting defensive. Right after I posted and made myself a cup of coffee, I thought. . I am not getting yelled at, they are just tough loving me into the position I need to be in. It has worked very well Thank you.
Either you are misunderstanding me, or you are presuming I am just sitting here typing and hoping for a quick fix.
I am going to be blunt: Several times in this forum I have stated my problems. Our conversations are nothing more than me tearing open all the wounds and explaining why each was there - Mine And my wife's. Every time there is a reply I feel more badgered by my expressions than by the fact that I understand.
I have learned and understood my mistakes, I have owned them, and feel that I am still being punished by all the responses here. How so?
I am owning my mistakes. And I promise by myself and God that I will never make these mistakes again - regardless of my chances with my wife. Good
No I have not actually made a list of "to do's" for my future, but that does not mean I do not know what I want, or Need to do.
When I asked to speak to 25 off the board it was not intended for a hand holding, it was meant for a conversation that is near impossible on this forum. Actual communication. Nothing more. It's risky at my end, & confirmed by past experiences. I assume that is why "management" frowns upon it.
I am broke I cannot afford a car at the moment. I assumed as much, but not being broke is something to work on b/c at your age to find yourself there, is something NOT to repeat. And it's Not your wife's fault; but I think you know that.
I am working overtime and even got a promotion, that I start on the 9th. In time I will get a vehicle. I have literally a dollar in the bank, and a ton of bills. Making a point, not asking for pity.
Yes I talk the talk - and I am trying my darnedest to walk it. Mistake after mistake i got it. I would love to apologize for not doing it right 3 years ago. I am tired of apologizing, I want to do it now. And I will - for me, and for my children. If she sees that wants to reconcile - all the better.
Okay, fair enough...not sure who is arguing that point. I never aid I was not going to make these changes if she does not notice, I just have a lot of curiosity. Character flaw? perhaps. the way you ask though, is kind of frequent and seems as if you are not sure it's worth it IF she isn't going to return. Awhile back you asked me if there was any point if she were to remain with OM. And you kind of fixed that but the comment really struck me. I do sense you want some form of guarantee that you WILL get her back if you do X and Y, and it simply does not work that way.
And no I will never blame DB'ing - ever. This forum has done nothing to steer me wrong, and I would not blame it for any reason. My own actions are to blame for the outcome of my life - I get that. My questions are for understanding, not justification. I am not trying to get answers to make what I need to do be easier.
What are your unanswered questions?
Yes I do still love her, regardless that she is with the OM, just as I would love my child if he/she were an alcoholic - but that does not mean I cannot express disappointment - since I know it to be wrong, unhealthy, and damaging in the long run - especially to our children.
See, I don't get this^^. I see your wife's actions as unfortunate BUT not incomprehensible at all. Nor do I see her actions as "unhealthy", although I must concede, I don't know the OM. But if he is kind to her, and attentive to the kids and would make a good provider, then I could argue that her choice is quite rational.
Yes I still love her, and if she asked me to do something I would. She has asked you to do things, and you did not. You said you worry that she believes you will never change. Given your history, why should she?
I am not asking you that to hurt you but to help you get HER point of view b/c your past behaviors (like never being with your kids on your own) make me think you need a lot of direction. You didn't know that moms want the dads to spend time alone with the kids? See, you don't seem to know why someone would expect "X" or "Y" from you and that is why I'm telling you ..
I don't intend her "blame" to be negative, just that I want some day - regardless of outcome - for her to admit and own her own faults - 2 things. 1) Why? What difference would it make to you? Get real now.
2) it's NOT YOUR JOB to get her to admit her flaws!! You are her h.
You are in No position to hope or expect or want that from her. You are so off base with this^^ that you need to get it now.
For ME< it's a statement like that which make me nuts. It's your scorecard and you have to lose it b/c scorecards are BAD destructive things in a marriage. The more you talk about HER FLAWS the less energy you spend on your own.
It is misdirected & misguided use of energy and focus on Your end..
I have written the following to you many many times but it's got to sink in.
WORK on you and only you. Stay in your sandbox and don't even look at hers.
but that by far will not change whether I love her.
I attempted to show her that I would walk to the end of the earth. Obviously I failed. When did you attempt that? How did you fail?
I did not show enough, regardless of all that I did wrong, I always showed compassion. When she had a bad day I listened and did not judge. I was still sweet and charming it's hard to know what this^^ means. Can you elaborate on how sweet you were to her? I mean it. You ignored her and the kids for a game, After the first sep, and you didn't help with the house or the bills much. So I'm sincerely asking you what was charming and sweet about all that. I assume you showed her some good things but you need to tell us what the looked like.
and made my life about her. Too much in fact because I was suffocating her - again a mistake. I don't think you made your life about her so much as you placed your needs in her lap. Can you see why I'd say that?
"When are you going to get serious and actually do something?" I AM doing it. And if you do not think so, then say specifics.
I am working more and diligently, I am getting a promotion and a raise. I am making plans to see my children more than once per week. I have stopped trying to pursue and get my wife to notice. I have stopped wondering where and what she is doing all day.
I do not call my few friends to cry and pout about my feelings. I walk to the store once per day (15 blocks) just to get air and see the sun. I have no car and live in a crappy town with nothing exciting to do. Everything fun is in 30 miles Even if true, then build or learn something. MAKE a fun thing to do or enjoy.
in any direction. When I have a car, I will be happy to do more. You will probably call that an excuse, but I am not walking 30 miles. I lived in the interior of Alaska for 3 years, with a newborn. I know something about a "crappy" town. But I compensated for so much, by GAL.
I overcame the very tempting idea of staying inside in the winter, (Typical temperatures in the winter in the interior, do NOT exceed -20'F)
I was tempted to give in to the inertia and darkness outside. I overcame that.
No one is saying "walk 30 miles" but IF your town has more than a few thousand people in it or a town nearby does, you can GAL much more than you are. I think you know that.
I WILL be and STAY a better man. Because I am. I have not learned everything. But I know my mistakes, I understand SO much more than I ever did. I write myself letters and re read them just to hear myself talk, and then rewrite it then put it away.
I will not make these mistakes again - with her or without.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Here are some GAL I did. NOTE that doing these usually introduced me to new people, many of whom became friends. And not all friends will be life long; some are just good for hanging with while you live in a funky place, others will remain true to you for life.
Don't look at one activity and figure out why it would NOT work for you;
rather, think outside the box, and find something that would.
Billman, I was miserable in Alaska, at first. Then I heard our 12 y/o son complain about how much he hated it there. His 9 y/o sister said "well we live here now & for the next 3 years, so I'm going to make the best of it!" (from the mouths of babes...) I decided then and there that I was NOT Going to surrender to the darkness outside. H had gone native on me and was hunting or fishing or working almost all the time.
IF you want to make friends, start by GAL, b/c 1) you will meet potential friends and 2) you will be a lot more interesting & happy, and people like that.
This is some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. I had 3 kids including a baby (so you know I don't want to hear about how 'busy' you are, or 'too busy' to GAL).
Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.
I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.
I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).
I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.
I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.
I learned to cross country ski, & I became a better target shooter.
I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.
I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans) I loved riding.
Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.
Went skydiving. Loved it so much I did it again. And plan on doing it again, soon!
Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)
I did archery indoors, with lessons.
I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape.
Looking good made a world of difference to me. Found a work out partner and began socializing after the work outs.
(Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly of their long LONG cold winters).
In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.
Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs.
Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).
Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.
(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)
Joined a writer's group Took a class in Conversational French Took a class in Italian cooking
There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot. Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Thank you.