High level...it has been a pretty great 10 days since my W came to meet saying she wanted to commit to our R and our M. She apologized for what she did and has continued to acknowledge her blame/responsibility for where our M is/was.
She said what got her back was that she was scared that she would lose me and our family. She had seen changes in me that over time were being seen as consistent and permanent. At first, she said that she thought that my changes were all BS and that I was just in it to win it. But over the weeks/months she began to believe in them. Even since our reconciliation, she has commented multiple times that the old Shodan would have been angry about X, would have reacted different to Y, etc.
We went to our first MC session on Tuesday. We are going back again after thanksgiving (my W and I are traveling this week and cannot go over Thanksgiving either). It was a good session. My W liked it and commented that she was very happy that we were doing this.
In terms of romance, last Saturday I bought her a single rose and put it on her car for her to see when she got out of yoga (she was with a friend who commented how romantic I was). I bought her some new lingerie. We have ended most nights talking over a glass of wine. My W booked a date for us this past Friday, which was great fun (drinks with friends followed by dinner afterwards). Saturday we went to yoga together and then to a movie (we saw Gone Girl...the book was better).
My 20,000 ft view of our situation: - I need to back off a bit. for the first few days, my W was 100% into our R, being together, etc. But she also is/was someone who wants/wanted her space. I sense that she is not pulling back but perhaps feeling "smothered". So I am going to limit my texting, etc. - Some days my W is super happy, others she is more withdrawn. Maybe she is going through withdrawal, maybe she is sad, maybe she is depressed. Who knows. - while my W has apologized and taken responsibility for what led up to her asking for a D, she has not provided to me full transparency. She will show me things on her phone and does not act secretive about it, but I do not know the code.
Do I fully trust my W? I want to, but the truth is no, I do not.
I know the 2x4s will be: - we are not "piecing" into she divulges everything, provides full transparency, etc. - we are moving too fast..slow down
So why didn't I do that? Honestly, it is very hard to "push" away my W when she wanted to reconnect and recommit to the M. I did not want to make her think that I would never get past the A so why should she even try. And then once we got back into being a couple, it was very easy. And after the past 5-6 months of h*ll, it felt good to be wanted by someone again. To be told that I was sexy, attractive, a great person. It was nice to hear her comment about women looking at me. For example, I called her once and she said "I am so glad that you called".
I am meeting with my DB coach on Thursday.
Me: 40, W: 40 M: 15, T: 18 D - 10, S - 7 D announcement 6/7/2014 A discovered 7/20/2014 (but denied by W) Still living together and sharing same bed
No 2x4's from me, Sho. This is difficult stuff, and I fully understand your reluctance to "spook the squirrel when she's finally eating out of your hand." I made some of the same mistakes (and they are mistakes, imho).
I do think you're "piecing," because you are both committed to working on the marriage. There are just ways to piece that protect you better than others, and what I was trying to get you to consider when you last posted was that THAT was your moment of maximum leverage.
Is your wife open to answering any questions that you have? And how truthful has she been (from what you know, and that she doesn't KNOW that you know) in her responses to you?
Reconciliation ("piecing") is, fully, 5-10x more difficult than DBing/affair-busting. It's not for the feint of heart! But if you two can pull it off, the rewards are ohhhhh so worth it.
Is my W open to answering any questions that I have? Yes, except she is not super forthcoming with the details.
How truthful has she been? Pretty truthful although she still insists that her A with the OM was an EA and not a PA. Ironically, she said that the EA is far worse since for women it is all about the emotional connection anyway.
Has she cut off all tie with the OM?...I don't know honestly. I am pretty sure she has not seen him in weeks and probably stopped the PA weeks before that. She told me 10 days ago that it had been two weeks since she last spoke with him.
Ultimately, my W is not where I want her to be. I really don't need all of the details and do not need her to admit that she had a PA. What I need is to know what she has cut him out of her life completely.
Me: 40, W: 40 M: 15, T: 18 D - 10, S - 7 D announcement 6/7/2014 A discovered 7/20/2014 (but denied by W) Still living together and sharing same bed
I know how hard it is, but I'm totally in agreement with Starsky and Drew here. And I'm saying that as a person who is seven months into the (sometimes unbearably) hard work of "piecing."
In the beginning stages of piecing, in my own experience anyway, we just feel so happy we are getting *anywhere* with with our WAS. Their "crumbs" feel pretty good. And we're willing to settle for those scraps.
But those great feelings of having our spouses back are actually quite (and quickly) fleeting. My H and I were just in another argument last night ... and the night before ... about the A. 7 months later.
As LBSs during "DBing/A-busting," we learn to put our own needs on the back-burner, I think. We learn to be more validating, more understanding, more forgiving. But we are, after all, only HUMAN. We hurt. We need answers. Some of us need more (or fewer) than others. I, like you, didn't feel I needed answers. But all of a sudden, 7 months later (quickly approaching our anti-versary, which was five days before BD), I feel I need a few answers every now and again. And H - who was very forthcoming with information in the beginning - is now wanting us to "just move on." I sent him some articles last night; wish I could tell you the website, but I see these days that isn't accepted here. H texted me this morning, admitting that every time I bring the A up now, it feels I'm "pulling the rug off of everything he keeps trying to sweep under it."
It's painful. It's BRUTAL. For BOTH of us.
But I've never known - or read of - a relationship that successfully reconciles until and unless the offending partner fully admits his/her wrongdoings and fully commits to honestly and openly answering questions about the A for as long as the offended partner needs to ask them.
This isn't about punishment. It's about us TRYING to figure out what went wrong and led to the A. It's about us NOT being treated like "ignorant" children - or mushrooms (kept in the dark and fed sh!t) - by our spouses who cheated on us.
We DESERVE to have answers to our questions. You've worked hard for those answers. You've stayed true. You've stayed loyal. You have WORKED for your W and for your M. You deserve to get what you want now. You deserve to get what you NEED to move forward. Period.
Don't sell yourself short. Don't accept less than what you need now. If you do? It will come back to you in a few months ... or a few years.
Do the hard work NOW. And your W should be willing to work even harder than YOU. THAT is the very.first.sign of a successful reconciliation-in-the-making.
M: 40 H: 44 Married 14 years S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M 2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart Piecing: April 2014
I am happy for the positive turn this relationship is taking.
My prayers are with you
No 2 X 4's from me either.
A few things come to mind...
First....Listen very, very, closely to what Starsky and Train are saying to you now. This is hard-won advice. There is a delicate balance between making the road home smooth, and not pursuing false reconciliation.
At this time you have the most leverage. Meaning, the honeymoon phase of coming back together is short-lived and a few months down the line when you will need to more clarity from your wife, she may be too exhausted to provide it for you.
There are plenty of excellent articles on what REAL reconciliation looks like. I can't point you to any because of board policies, but the basic point is that now is the time for your wife to work HARDER than you have been. Real reconciliation and remorse for an affair leads to: transparency, HONESTY, and a willingness to bend over backwards and repeat the same story to the cheated-on spouse as many times as they need to hear it. Real reconciliation books the marriage counselor appointment without being asked by the betrayed spouse. Real reconciliation tell all the gory details so that the betrayed spouse can make sense of their pain. n
You said that you don't need your wife to admit she had a PA with the OM. Really? I appreciate you seemingly being "bigger" than your wife on this one, but in the end this will bite you in the rear end. She can have an affair, lie about it and purse REAL reconciliation with you?
You said...
Quote:
How truthful has she been? Pretty truthful although she still insists that her A with the OM was an EA and not a PA. Ironically, she said that the EA is far worse since for women it is all about the emotional connection anyway.
Can you accept her lying about it to your face? This behavior is called Gaslighting. This is not a sign of true, full reconciliation yet. I think it's something you need to talk about with your marriage counselor. Can you trust someone who is lying to you? In some cultures, people are allowed to lie in order to save face. Sort of, "We both know your lying, so I'm going to pretend to believe your lie so we can maintain this relationship".
It seems what turned your wife around are your changes. That's really amazing work on your part. Well done. She has chosen the better option - you. But is your continued good behavior all that will keep her in the marriage? This means you can't really backslide or slip-up. This may turn into situation where there's no grace for you in this marriage. It's all law-keeping on your part to appease the goddess. What if you slip up? What if you do something to annoy her? The question is, will she eventually dig deep and realize that adultery and lying about it to your husband are not productive ways to handle your marriage problems?
I don't think any of this happens overnight or quickly, but I think you might want to consider maintaining some healthy boundaries and think through what your piecing looks like.
I also want to say you have worked very hard for this and I'm really happy for the turn-around in your wife.
I am happy for the positive turn this relationship is taking.
My prayers are with you
No 2 X 4's from me either.
A few things come to mind...
First....Listen very, very, closely to what Starsky and Train are saying to you now. This is hard-won advice. There is a delicate balance between making the road home smooth, and not pursuing false reconciliation.
At this time you have the most leverage. Meaning, the honeymoon phase of coming back together is short-lived and a few months down the line when you will need to more clarity from your wife, she may be too exhausted to provide it for you.
There are plenty of excellent articles on what REAL reconciliation looks like. I can't point you to any because of board policies, but the basic point is that now is the time for your wife to work HARDER than you have been. Real reconciliation and remorse for an affair leads to: transparency, HONESTY, and a willingness to bend over backwards and repeat the same story to the cheated-on spouse as many times as they need to hear it. Real reconciliation books the marriage counselor appointment without being asked by the betrayed spouse. Real reconciliation tell all the gory details so that the betrayed spouse can make sense of their pain. n
You said that you don't need your wife to admit she had a PA with the OM. Really? I appreciate you seemingly being "bigger" than your wife on this one, but in the end this will bite you in the rear end. She can have an affair, lie about it and purse REAL reconciliation with you?
You said...
Quote:
How truthful has she been? Pretty truthful although she still insists that her A with the OM was an EA and not a PA. Ironically, she said that the EA is far worse since for women it is all about the emotional connection anyway.
Can you accept her lying about it to your face? This behavior is called Gaslighting. This is not a sign of true, full reconciliation yet. I think it's something you need to talk about with your marriage counselor. Can you trust someone who is lying to you? In some cultures, people are allowed to lie in order to save face. Sort of, "We both know your lying, so I'm going to pretend to believe your lie so we can maintain this relationship".
It seems what turned your wife around are your changes. That's really amazing work on your part. Well done. She has chosen the better option - you. But is your continued good behavior all that will keep her in the marriage? This means you can't really backslide or slip-up. This may turn into situation where there's no grace for you in this marriage. It's all law-keeping on your part to appease the goddess. What if you slip up? What if you do something to annoy her? The question is, will she eventually dig deep and realize that adultery and lying about it to your husband are not productive ways to handle your marriage problems?
I don't think any of this happens overnight or quickly, but I think you might want to consider maintaining some healthy boundaries and think through what your piecing looks like.
I also want to say you have worked very hard for this and I'm really happy for the turn-around in your wife.
Here are some thoughts that came to me this morning about your sitch.
1. By not letting her know you "know" she had a PA, you are robbing her of the opportunity to really come clean, be honest/open and really address her behavior patterns. Letting her gaslight you is a dis-service to her growth and the health of your marriage. It's like she needs major surgery by you are using a band-aid to treat the problem.
2. You have been doing your own work, and that's great. But, for the marriage to succeed and not depend on you future, flawless execution of you GAL and 180's your wife will need to do her part. Marriage is a 2 person proposition. DB-in is largely a solo performance, which you have passed with flying colors. Piecing, however, is a partnership.
3. Paving too-smooth a road sends a certain message to your wife: you can cheat, lie to me, gaslight me, throw me emotional crumbs and as a result, you will get a new and improved husband. It reinforces her sense of entitlement that all cheaters seem to have.
4. I think you need to address this with your marriage counselor in a private session.
5. What's preventing you from asking for honesty and transparency from your wife in the piecing process? Is it fear that she will back away? Fear that all your hard work will be for naught? Do you want your reconciliation to be driven by fear? It's nice to be wanted again and to have some relief. However, building a strong foundation may mean you need to dig deeper into the soil to establish a more long-lasting solution.
6. I am only speaking from my own experience and failure to demand remorse and transparency when I was piecing. In the end, my "changes" didn't stick and I never really trusted my wife who felt that having an affair was morally acceptable. That means we both ended up quitting on the marriage after piecing. It could be that if I completely let go of my need for her to experience remorse and actually ask for my forgiveness, then our marriage might have lasted. Also I would have to have kept my needs and demands small. I wasn't capable of being super-Theoden who gives all, forgives all, trusts always in spite of the evidence.
7. Perhaps making demands during piecing reveals who the cheater really is. Give them the opportunity to come clean and repent. Or give them the opportunity to clearly remain entitled.
3. Paving too-smooth a road sends a certain message to your wife: you can cheat, lie to me, gaslight me, throw me emotional crumbs and as a result, you will get a new and improved husband. It reinforces her sense of entitlement that all cheaters seem to have.
That entire post was pure gold, but #3 is especially insightful. It's one of the toughest balancing acts in all of DBing, in my opinion.
Overall, it's imperative to FULLY realize that the attitude and skills required for successful piecing are not only DIFFERENT than those required for successful DBing . . . many of them are precisely OPPOSITE.
